Heritage Live Auction -- Black Swamp debacle

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by David R

Thankfully I don't believe the law shares or recognizes that definition of deception when it comes to third-party business transactions. I think it would really create a lot of mischief (and lawsuits) if that were the law. For example, what if I later decided to destroy the other 9 Wagners after selling the first one? Would it still have been deceptive to not disclose I had the other 9 when I sold the first one? What if I decided to keep the other 9? Do I have to disclose when I sell the first one that I have 9 more that I plan to keep until I die? And if so, do I also have to disclose at that point what my life expectancy is so that the potential buyers can figure out when these 9 are likely to hit the market (i.e, when I will likely die and my family will sell them)? Where does the duty to disclose end?

David most issues are decided on a case by case basis, with regard to all the facts and circumstances. Why should this one be any different? Of course hard and fast rules are easier to enforce, but they also lead to unjust results. In any event, I am really talking more about ethics than law here, I think it's very easy to see why withholding information about your other 9 presumably intact Wagners is deceptive.

[David R]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

David most issues are decided on a case by case basis, with regard to all the facts and circumstances. Why should this one be any different? Of course hard and fast rules are easier to enforce, but they also lead to unjust results. In any event, I am really talking more about ethics than law here, I think it's very easy to see why withholding information about your other 9 presumably intact Wagners is deceptive.

Peter,
I really don't think it is deceptive to say nothing and just sell the card. I actually had a somewhat similar situation when I acquired a dozen overprinted scrap t206s several years ago. I did disclose all of them on this website with scans and later ended up selling some of them. It probably did affect the price negatively but I didn't mind -- I am a collector and don't really collect to make money from it so I thought the find was really neat and I disclosed all the cards. But if I was not a collector and I just wanted to maximize profits, I don't think there would have been anything unethical about just giving one to an auction house.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I guess we disagree then. Good discussion, interesting question.

[botn]

Once the cards were graded, the cat was out of the bag. Whether or not to disclose pop numbers in the auction descriptions was really moot. Do we know if the consignors told HA to sell all the cards at once or if they were looking for HA's opinion on the best disposition and HA informed them of all of the options?

When the breadth of the find was made public I made a comment on another thread that if it was HA's suggestion to grade all the cards at once and tell the scope of the find, that it was done not for the benefit of the consignor or their buyers but for the benefit of HA.

Sports collectibles are only one segment of their business. If they had graded these cards a few at a time, at the end of 5 years we could all look back and see how they mislead us, it would have a direct impact on their reputation among the buyers of all segments of their business. They knew the consignors were going to do just fine getting the cards graded all at once even if they were going to be leaving money on the table by not grading and selling these off a few at a time.

A house needs buyers, even if you have disclosed that you bid up your stuff and buried it in paragraph 21.

[David R]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I guess we disagree then. Good discussion, interesting question.

Agreed. Thanks.

[travrosty]

heritage would be idiots to not pile on the p.r. for their benefit? but the family is just suppose to take their medicine and be happy they got something?

its always the nice people that get applauded for taking less. why should they get less? it was a missed opportunity. this find is their ONLY chance. heritage will have million dollar bats, jerseys in the future, but this family has this one chance to split up the loot among 20 members.

People say that there are people out there whose lives aren't all about money. but they dont say that about auction houses. why? because auction houses are a business, they are suppose to maximize their profits and people say good for them.

The first thing this family should have done, is to incorporate into a business.

"black swamp find, inc." now they are a business too. and if "black swamp find inc." -as a business- did everything they could to maximize profits for their business, would that NOT be okay then?

people see old ladies and grandpa's and they salivate and lick their chops.

this was a missed opportunity by the family for not taking a little time to hire a couple of graders and consultants independently for their opinions on how to maximize their find on a contingency fee.

they could have turned that honus wagner 10 into a hobby icon. they didn't.

[bobbyw8469]

Well said Travis.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by travrosty

heritage would be idiots to not pile on the p.r. for their benefit? but the family is just suppose to take their medicine and be happy they got something?

its always the nice people that get applauded for taking less. why should they get less? it was a missed opportunity. this find is their ONLY chance. heritage will have million dollar bats, jerseys in the future, but this family has this one chance to split up the loot among 20 members.

People say that there are people out there whose lives aren't all about money. but they dont say that about auction houses. why? because auction houses are a business, they are suppose to maximize their profits and people say good for them.

The first thing this family should have done, is to incorporate into a business.

"black swamp find, inc." now they are a business too. and if "black swamp find inc." -as a business- did everything they could to maximize profits for their business, would that NOT be okay then?

people see old ladies and grandpa's and they salivate and lick their chops.

this was a missed opportunity by the family for not taking a little time to hire a couple of graders and consultants independently for their opinions on how to maximize their find on a contingency fee.

they could have turned that honus wagner 10 into a hobby icon. they didn't.

I disagree with you on every single thing you said except the PR piece. What part of "it wasn't about the money to the family" don't you understand? They got less because they actually care about people. You really will never get it. It's just that simple.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by leon

they got less because they actually care about people.

lol

[T206DK]

Originally Posted by Leon

I disagree with you on every single thing you said except the PR piece. What part of "it wasn't about the money to the family" don't you understand? They got less because they actually care about people. You really will never get it. It's just that simple.

Leon, some people will never understand where the family is coming from

[martindl]

I rarely post anymore because i'm generally disillusioned with the whole hobby, TPG grading and all, all the focus on money instead being happy with the beauty of the cards or the fun of collecting, so perhaps my post is not relevant. Oh, and likely not in tune with 'modern' perspectives either, but.......

All this talk of what constitutes legality and the look over there so I don't have to actually answer the question (paragraph 21, or whatever) is really quite tiresome.

Here you had some folks that found a bunch of old things, figured out they're worth something, connect with HA, and then sell a bunch for more money than they could ever imagine. These people are not just happy, they're ecstatic. Most people are just happy when the gift horse shows up and the need for a dental exam is the furthest thing from their minds.

Juxtapose that with the people on this thread touting "what a dumb ass way of going about thing when they could have gotten so much more" and the like.

Most of life and most of the world operates with good people doing good things. Regular folk don't get caught up so much on legal language and trying to squeeze out every last dime on each or any transaction.

Yes, any auction company works on behalf of its consignors and I have no doubts that HA explained the options; "no doubts" because I trust that they did, not that I know that they did. That's me, naive maybe, but I trust that there are way more good people and companies in the world than there are shysters. I still buy, a lot actually, as I own and run an antiques and collectibles business, and while each transaction is subject to some level of scrutiny, believing in people and their motives, companies included, seems to have a lot more payback than being being paranoid. Did HA pile on the p.r. - of course they did. They'd be idiots not to.

In the collectors world there is clearly room for cynism (see Mastro et al) but most of the real world still works on trust, thankfully, especially when good fortune is found. Congratulations to the family.