Ted Williams Autograph Authentication Help

[TyrusRCobb]

Originally Posted by thetruthisoutthere

What makes you think it's authentic?

Shelly, I did my best to compare the auto to other authenticated autos and to my untrained eye it appeared correct. I'm in no way challenging your opinion. As I said, I'm very new to collecting and would simply like to know how you came to your opinion so that I can avoid making the same mistake in the future.

[thetruthisoutthere]

Reads to me like you're trying to convince yourself that your Ted Williams autographed baseball is authentic.

Is it because you want to believe it is authentic?

What exemplars did you use to compare it to?

[thetruthisoutthere]

The ball is dated "1941." Correct?

Doesn't something stand out immediately about the autograph?

[thetruthisoutthere]

Originally Posted by thetruthisoutthere

The ball is dated "1941." Correct?

Doesn't something stand out immediately about the autograph?

Mark, if you read my original post (above) I was trying to hint to the OP that the ballpoint pen is a dead giveaway. It's the first thing I noticed when looking at that ball.

Also, in my years of observing the buying habits of autograph (forgeries) buyers, there is no doubt in my mind that a high percentage of autograph buyers are well aware that they are buying an autograph that is at best questionable, and with the price being right, they want to believe (for bragging rights, too) that what they now own is authentic.

[Wymers Auction]

Originally Posted by thetruthisoutthere

Mark, if you read my original post (above) I was trying to hint to the OP that the ballpoint pen is a dead giveaway. It's the first thing I noticed when looking at that ball.

Also, in my years of observing the buying habits of autograph (forgeries) buyers, there is no doubt in my mind that a high percentage of autograph buyers are well aware that they are buying an autograph that is at best questionable, and with the price being right, they want to believe (for bragging rights, too) that what they now own is authentic.

I agree at local sports auctions I hear "for x amount I'll take a chance". That taking a chance is what keeps these low lifes in business.

[toyman55]

is this a good early rookie autograph from Ted?

[JimStinson]

In my opinion Yes, 1939-41 Williams

[JimStinson]

The Ball is not even close , Prove it to yourself. It appears that the writing was applied AFTER the ball was aged , shellacked, buttered, glazed or whatever that shine is on it , look at it under magnification, it will be ON TOP of that, then consider this in 1951 Ball point pens were relatively new and messy , they would throw off globs of ink, (spotting) easily visible around where the signature is. Look under a magnifying glass and you'll see what I'm talking about. My GUESS is that the ball might have been used in the game, a fan catches a foul ball and writes the name of his hero and the date he caught it on the ball years later

[JimStinson]

1941 ?????? Forget it , its ball point

[thetruthisoutthere]

Delete.

[thetruthisoutthere]

Originally Posted by JimStinson

1941 ?????? Forget it , its ball point

Exactly.

[markf31]

Originally Posted by thetruthisoutthere

Reads to me like you're trying to convince yourself that your Ted Williams autographed baseball is authentic.

Is it because you want to believe it is authentic?

Chris I have a similar response as the OP when somone simply states an autograph is not authentic without providing justification. It's not that I don't trust their opinion and it's not that I'm trying to convince myself an autograph is authentic. I like to learn as much as I can as a collector, so when someone says an autograph is not authentic I like to know how they came to that decision so I can look at the autograph, see those observations, learn from them and become a more informed collector moving forward.

With tha being said here are my observations.

The use of a ball point pen is a dead giveaway as Jim stated. Ball point pens were not introduced in the states until the very end of 1945 so it would have been virtually impossible for an autograph dated 1941 to be made with a ball point pen.

This is an important fact to remember when dealing with vintage autographs, you will easily be able to tell the difference between a fountain pen and a ball point pen. If you can't, go buy a fountain pen and ink and compare it side by side with a ball point pen. Even with today's ball point pens the difference screams out at you.

Another important characteristic in the signature is the "d" in Ted and "W" in Williams are connected and continuous. While this was a characteristic of his signature later in life and in most of the examples you probably compared it to, his early signatures do not exhibit this characteristic. In his early signatures from the 40s and into the 50s there was a clear separation and pen lift between his first and last name.

[TyrusRCobb]

@Mark, thanks for all of the info. Just the kind of knowledge I was hoping to gain when I originally asked for thoughts regarding the conclusions that the signature was not authentic. If I wanted to believe that the signature was authentic I would have never sought the opinion of those more knowledgeable than myself.

[TyrusRCobb]

Originally Posted by JimStinson

The Ball is not even close , Prove it to yourself. It appears that the writing was applied AFTER the ball was aged , shellacked, buttered, glazed or whatever that shine is on it , look at it under magnification, it will be ON TOP of that, then consider this in 1951 Ball point pens were relatively new and messy , they would throw off globs of ink, (spotting) easily visible around where the signature is. Look under a magnifying glass and you'll see what I'm talking about. My GUESS is that the ball might have been used in the game, a fan catches a foul ball and writes the name of his hero and the date he caught it on the ball years later

Oh. Wow. The ball point pen. That should have been glaringly obvious! Clearly, I have a WHOLE LOT to learn about collecting!

[TyrusRCobb]

Originally Posted by thetruthisoutthere

Reads to me like you're trying to convince yourself that your Ted Williams autographed baseball is authentic.

Is it because you want to believe it is authentic?

What exemplars did you use to compare it to?

I'm not trying to convince myself that it's authentic. I'm trying to learn how to spot the difference between a fake and a genuine signature. As I've stated a few times, I very new to collecting and am simply looking to learn.

[thetruthisoutthere]

Originally Posted by TyrusRCobb

I'm not trying to convince myself that it's authentic. I'm trying to learn how to spot the difference between a fake and a genuine signature. As I've stated a few times, I very new to collecting and am simply looking to learn.

It's not going to happen overnight.

I hope that baseball gets destroyed.

By the way, what convinced you to purchase that baseball? Was it the BS story, the autograph itself or the fact that the baseball was dated?

[JimStinson]

If your new to collecting welcome, best bet is to hook up with a few reputable autograph dealers and they will "coach" you along the way without trying to empty your wallet every time they talk to you. The "good guys" are always willing to help new collectors.
In the begining just don;t wander out onto the "Savanna" on your own like a wounded Wildebeest. Stay with the herd. Learn , take it easy. There will always be more authentic autographs to buy than you have funds to buy them with. Don;t try to assemble an "Overnight collection"

[thetruthisoutthere]

Originally Posted by JimStinson

If your new to collecting welcome, best bet is to hook up with a few reputable autograph dealers and they will "coach" you along the way without trying to empty your wallet every time they talk to you. The "good guys" are always willing to help new collectors.
In the begining just don;t wander out onto the "Savanna" on your own like a wounded Wildebeest. Stay with the herd. Learn , take it easy. There will always be more authentic autographs to buy than you have funds to buy them with. Don;t try to assemble an "Overnight collection"

Sound advice.

[TyrusRCobb]

Jim, thanks for the great advice. I have six balls thus far: Dale Murphy (My favorite player as a kid.), Feller, Berra, Mays, Killebrew and Rose. I was very careful with these purchases, dealing with reputable people and checking multiple price guides before buying. I got sucked in by a good yarn. That I thought that it was too good to be true should have been enough to stop me from going through with it.Two minutes on the web revealed that the first ballpoint wasn't even available in the U.S. until 1945! Are then any "must reads" for a new collector.

[TyrusRCobb]

Originally Posted by thetruthisoutthere

It's not going to happen overnight.

I hope that baseball gets destroyed.

By the way, what convinced you to purchase that baseball? Was it the BS story, the autograph itself or the fact that the baseball was dated?

The BS story sucked me in which was followed by about ten minutes of signature comparison without even thinking about the signature's condition relative to the ball or the medium used to sign the ball.
As for the ball...it was purchased through ebay so I'm hoping to get a full refund. If for some reason I can't get a refund, my three year old son and I will use it to play catch followed by a great deal of fetching with the dog. I will then put it in a ball holder to serve as a reminder of my moronic purchase.

[JimStinson]

That ball is a valuable collectible ! put it in a ball holder and keep it in your office. 10 years from now if you are still an active collector it will remind you of how far you've come.
because the first time anyone attempted to do ANYTHING they were not perfect at it.
Lance Armstrong probably fell off his tri-cycle a few times, Muhammad Ali didn;t always do "The shuffle" and believe it or not MICHAEL JORDAN WAS CUT from his high school basketball team. Best wishes in your collecting pursuits
________________________
Vintage autographs for sale daily
stinsonsports.com

[TyrusRCobb]

Originally Posted by JimStinson

That ball is a valuable collectible ! put it in a ball holder and keep it in your office. 10 years from now if you are still an active collector it will remind you of how far you've come.
because the first time anyone attempted to do ANYTHING they were not perfect at it.
Lance Armstrong probably fell off his tri-cycle a few times, Muhammad Ali didn;t always do "The shuffle" and believe it or not MICHAEL JORDAN WAS CUT from his high school basketball team. Best wishes in your collecting pursuits
________________________
Vintage autographs for sale daily
stinsonsports.com

Jim, I like you already. I'll be throwing a lot of questions your way in the future. Just out of curiosity, have you ever gotten hold of a Cobb signature in your business?

[thetruthisoutthere]

Originally Posted by TyrusRCobb

The BS story sucked me in which was followed by about ten minutes of signature comparison without even thinking about the signature's condition relative to the ball or the medium used to sign the ball.
As for the ball...it was purchased through ebay so I'm hoping to get a full refund. If for some reason I can't get a refund, my three year old son and I will use it to play catch followed by a great deal of fetching with the dog. I will then put it in a ball holder to serve as a reminder of my moronic purchase.

I hope you can get a refund. If you paid with a credit card via PayPal, then there is hope. How long ago did you make the purchase on Ebay?

[TyrusRCobb]

Originally Posted by thetruthisoutthere

I hope you can get a refund. If you paid with a credit card via PayPal, then there is hope. How long ago did you make the purchase on Ebay?

Yesterday. It may be really easy if the ball hasn't shipped yet. Another question, assuming I'm able to get a refund, what in your opinion, is a fair price for a Cal Ripken ball? I've seen the prices all over the place.