Ted Williams Autograph Authentication Help
 

So, here's the story. I purchased a ball from a guy who said it belonged to his grandfather. He said his grandfather lived near Briggs stadium as a kid and often helped the grounds crew who in return would let him watch the games. He said he was able to get the autograph prior to the game. Underneath what I hope is a real signature is the date July 8,1941. Of course this would be the date of the 1941 all-star game. I know, sounds too good to be true, but I just couldn't pass it up. I hope the image uploads.

williams
 

The one thing for sure in the story is that Ted did not sign this.

Shelly, I'm new to collecting. What makes you think the signature isn't authentic?

What makes you think it's authentic?

Alright folks, I've gotten one nay on the auto. Any more opinions? I'm very new, having only purchased 6 balls total. Any help you can offer, especially in the way of pointing out why this might or might not be authentic would be really, really appreciated.

Shelly, I did my best to compare the auto to other authenticated autos and to my untrained eye it appeared correct. I'm in no way challenging your opinion. As I said, I'm very new to collecting and would simply like to know how you came to your opinion so that I can avoid making the same mistake in the future.

Reads to me like you're trying to convince yourself that your Ted Williams autographed baseball is authentic.

Is it because you want to believe it is authentic?

What exemplars did you use to compare it to?

The ball is dated "1941." Correct?

Doesn't something stand out immediately about the autograph?

JimStinson
 

The Ball is not even close , Prove it to yourself. It appears that the writing was applied AFTER the ball was aged , shellacked, buttered, glazed or whatever that shine is on it , look at it under magnification, it will be ON TOP of that, then consider this in 1951 Ball point pens were relatively new and messy , they would throw off globs of ink, (spotting) easily visible around where the signature is. Look under a magnifying glass and you'll see what I'm talking about. My GUESS is that the ball might have been used in the game, a fan catches a foul ball and writes the name of his hero and the date he caught it on the ball years later

JimStinson
 

1941 ?????? Forget it , its ball point

Delete.

Exactly.

Oh. Wow. The ball point pen. That should have been glaringly obvious! Clearly, I have a WHOLE LOT to learn about collecting!

I'm not trying to convince myself that it's authentic. I'm trying to learn how to spot the difference between a fake and a genuine signature. As I've stated a few times, I very new to collecting and am simply looking to learn.

It's not going to happen overnight.

I hope that baseball gets destroyed.

By the way, what convinced you to purchase that baseball? Was it the BS story, the autograph itself or the fact that the baseball was dated?

JimStinson
 

If your new to collecting welcome, best bet is to hook up with a few reputable autograph dealers and they will "coach" you along the way without trying to empty your wallet every time they talk to you. The "good guys" are always willing to help new collectors.
In the begining just don;t wander out onto the "Savanna" on your own like a wounded Wildebeest. Stay with the herd. Learn , take it easy. There will always be more authentic autographs to buy than you have funds to buy them with. Don;t try to assemble an "Overnight collection"

Sound advice.

Jim, thanks for the great advice. I have six balls thus far: Dale Murphy (My favorite player as a kid.), Feller, Berra, Mays, Killebrew and Rose. I was very careful with these purchases, dealing with reputable people and checking multiple price guides before buying. I got sucked in by a good yarn. That I thought that it was too good to be true should have been enough to stop me from going through with it.Two minutes on the web revealed that the first ballpoint wasn't even available in the U.S. until 1945! Are then any "must reads" for a new collector.

The BS story sucked me in which was followed by about ten minutes of signature comparison without even thinking about the signature's condition relative to the ball or the medium used to sign the ball.
As for the ball...it was purchased through ebay so I'm hoping to get a full refund. If for some reason I can't get a refund, my three year old son and I will use it to play catch followed by a great deal of fetching with the dog. I will then put it in a ball holder to serve as a reminder of my moronic purchase.

JimStinson
 

That ball is a valuable collectible ! put it in a ball holder and keep it in your office. 10 years from now if you are still an active collector it will remind you of how far you've come.
because the first time anyone attempted to do ANYTHING they were not perfect at it.
Lance Armstrong probably fell off his tri-cycle a few times, Muhammad Ali didn;t always do "The shuffle" and believe it or not MICHAEL JORDAN WAS CUT from his high school basketball team. Best wishes in your collecting pursuits
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Vintage autographs for sale daily
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I hope you can get a refund. If you paid with a credit card via PayPal, then there is hope. How long ago did you make the purchase on Ebay?

Yesterday. It may be really easy if the ball hasn't shipped yet. Another question, assuming I'm able to get a refund, what in your opinion, is a fair price for a Cal Ripken ball? I've seen the prices all over the place.

Jim, I like you already. I'll be throwing a lot of questions your way in the future. Just out of curiosity, have you ever gotten hold of a Cobb signature in your business?

You should have no problem getting a refund. Contact the seller immediately and politely request a refund. If he is adamant about it being authentic, send him a link to this thread and the ballpoint pen issue.

The fact that the seller was willing to sell an authentic Ted Williams autographed baseball dated 1941 for only $150.00 should have also raised a red flag.

JimStinson
 

In answer to your question have sold maybe 50 Cobb signatures over the years in fact the flyer that the Cobb museum hands out quotes a signature study I did on Cobb as well as the flagrant fouls leveled against Cobb as a person. Its called "Ty Cobb, Peach or Pariah", almost ALL of the stuff they invented was by a LOSER author named Al Stump , which they based the movie on. Believe it or not Cobb was not a bad guy , highly regarded by his team mates and players when he was a manager (except for maybe Sam Crawford who was a bit of an egotist himself), he contributed to numerous humanitarian causes and helped make many of his team mates RICH by convincing them to invest in a new company called "Coca-Cola"
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Vintage autographs for sale daily
stinsonsports.com

JimStinson
 

It appears I have been Plagiarized based on my wiki search. Thank you as least the truth is out................
In 2010, an article by William R. "Ron" Cobb (no relation to Ty) in The National Pastime, official publication of the Society for American Baseball Research, accused Al Stump of extensive forgeries of Cobb-related documents and diaries and even of having falsely claimed to possess a shotgun used by Cobb's mother to kill his father (in a well-known incident officially ascribed to her having mistaken him for an intruder). The shotgun later came into the hands of noted memorabilia collector Barry Halper, but in reality Cobb's father had been killed by a pistol. The article further accused Stump of numerous false statements about Cobb in his last years, most of which were sensationalistic in nature and intended to cast Cobb in an unflattering light

Jim, what a fantastic feeling it must be to have such things pass through your fingers. I've read a couple of Cobb bios. I thought the movie was criminal. Funny you should mention the Stump book. I just started reading it last week as I've heard so much about the errors and liberties Stump took in writing the book. I've been having fun trying to fact checking Stump against what we now know to be the truth about Cobb.

One more question regarding the fake Williams signature: Other than the obvious ballpoint pen use, what tells are in the signature itself that point to it being a fake?

Sorry for not answering you quicker. I just will say that Chris and Jim gave you a complete and I must say perfect answers. I would like to know what you where looking at when you said they look the same? That is one horrible autograph.

JimStinson
 

Thank you Shelly, My friend this is done deal , if you would like to keep searching for clues do so. You have been well advised if you choose to ignore the advice do so , its a free country
best wishes in your collecting pusuits
J.

Jim, please don't misunderstand my last post. I am, after all of the great answers I've received in the forum, absolutely convinced that the signature is a fake.

I'm only trying to learn the best way to go about confirming signatures in general. I completely agree that the Williams fake is "a done deal." I'm simply attempting to learn as much as I can about collecting from all of you.

Here is a Ted Williams signed in 1939 for comparison. His signature was nowhere near as polished as it became later on in his career, but you can see where it eventually got to based on how he started, most of the major characters are the same.

Rhys

prewarsports, thanks for the lesson. Where's the best place to begin when trying to establish authenticity? Do I simply compare two signatures from images available on the web? Is there a signature "bible" in the same way such books exist for coin collectors? Come to think of it, how did collectors authenticate prior to the web?

Jim, you of all people know that nothing is ever over. I do appreciate your advice.

Best thing you can do is educate yourself as much as possible (this forum, ask questions, look online at examples from reputable dealers) and buy from people with good reputations and who offer lifetime Guarantees of authenticity (money back) and you will be safe.

Rhys

Chris I have a similar response as the OP when somone simply states an autograph is not authentic without providing justification. It's not that I don't trust their opinion and it's not that I'm trying to convince myself an autograph is authentic. I like to learn as much as I can as a collector, so when someone says an autograph is not authentic I like to know how they came to that decision so I can look at the autograph, see those observations, learn from them and become a more informed collector moving forward.

With tha being said here are my observations.

The use of a ball point pen is a dead giveaway as Jim stated. Ball point pens were not introduced in the states until the very end of 1945 so it would have been virtually impossible for an autograph dated 1941 to be made with a ball point pen.

This is an important fact to remember when dealing with vintage autographs, you will easily be able to tell the difference between a fountain pen and a ball point pen. If you can't, go buy a fountain pen and ink and compare it side by side with a ball point pen. Even with today's ball point pens the difference screams out at you.

Another important characteristic in the signature is the "d" in Ted and "W" in Williams are connected and continuous. While this was a characteristic of his signature later in life and in most of the examples you probably compared it to, his early signatures do not exhibit this characteristic. In his early signatures from the 40s and into the 50s there was a clear separation and pen lift between his first and last name.

Mark, if you read my original post (above) I was trying to hint to the OP that the ballpoint pen is a dead giveaway. It's the first thing I noticed when looking at that ball.

Also, in my years of observing the buying habits of autograph (forgeries) buyers, there is no doubt in my mind that a high percentage of autograph buyers are well aware that they are buying an autograph that is at best questionable, and with the price being right, they want to believe (for bragging rights, too) that what they now own is authentic.

@Mark, thanks for all of the info. Just the kind of knowledge I was hoping to gain when I originally asked for thoughts regarding the conclusions that the signature was not authentic. If I wanted to believe that the signature was authentic I would have never sought the opinion of those more knowledgeable than myself.

I agree at local sports auctions I hear "for x amount I'll take a chance". That taking a chance is what keeps these low lifes in business.

is this a good early rookie autograph from Ted?

JimStinson
 

In my opinion Yes, 1939-41 Williams

what do you think it's worth Jim? It is on a sheet with about 7 others including paul warner and joe medwick.

JimStinson
 

Hard to say about price without seeing the whole sheet , there might be a non-HOF "sleeper" and depends on how it presents , are they all on one side ? Why don;t you post an image of the entire page and can better guess