OT: Colorado shooting

[barrysloate]

I think they should put him in a room with the victims' families, and let the families mete out the just punishment.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

I think they should put him in a room with the victims' families, and let the families mete out the just punishment.

And where do you draw the line between where you would let frontier justice prevail and where you would give defendants due process?

[barrysloate]

That wasn't meant to be taken literally. It's what I would like to see, not what in any way I would expect to happen.

[kcohen]

I could never understand why Chris Rock's proposal never received more serious consideration.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZrFVtmRXrw

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

That wasn't meant to be taken literally. It's what I would like to see, not what in any way I would expect to happen.

Right, that's how I understood you, but in your ideal world where would you draw the line?

[yanks12025]

Anyone see the car crash that killed 14 people in texas. Guess trucks should be banned next.

[barrysloate]

In my ideal world there would be a short line. I don't think there's any doubt this guy did it. Among the questions would be why he did it. As long as I'm sure it's him...I don't have too much sympathy for a crime that horrific.

[barrysloate]

Originally Posted by yanks12025

Anyone see the car crash that killed 14 people in texas. Guess trucks should be banned next.

Come on Brock, that's not the same thing and you know it. Why would you say something like that? If I slip on a banana peel and break my neck, do you think we should ban bananas? Do you think what happened in Aurora was just an unfortunate accident? Let's stay focused.

This is a horrible tragedy. I am not for vigilante justice, but Colorado has only executed one person since 1976 (Method of execution in Colorado is lethal injection). In comparison, Texas has executed 483 since 1976. Truly hope the bereaved families of those killed or wounded in this senseless act find some measure of justice, but I have my doubts.

I agree with above posts, definitely looked as though the accused was doing the Thorazine shuffle in his court appearance this AM. Probably already laying the groundwork for an insanity defense.

I feel no sympathy for this man.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by pariah1107

I agree with above posts, definitely looked as though the accused was doing the Thorazine shuffle in his court appearance this AM. Probably already laying the groundwork for an insanity defense.

I feel no sympathy for this man.

The Thorazine shuffle? Do you even know what Thorazine is for? It's used to treat Schizophrenia, which is a mental illness. If this man was in the middle of his first manic break as a schizophrenic, then he's mentally ill and was not acting with his own mind. First mental breaks normally occur for schizophrenic men in their 20's, and they are generally exceptionally intelligent and creative people, and the illness manifests itself as anger. Prior to the attack, there might have been some eccentric behavior, but no family wants to think their son is mentally ill, so it gets ignored. When the person comes down from the break (which might not even happen with a schizophrenic), they are generally horrified at what they have done.

Basically, if he's mentally ill, executing him is not going to give the family members any sense of justice. It will only give internet forum members a sense of justice.

But you're not alone - the only time an American generally has any desire to discuss mental illness is when something like this happens, and their solution is generally the same being suggested on this board - lethal injection. Any manifestation of mental illness that is less than horrible, is ignored, which is why Seattle and other cities have so many mentally ill people living on the streets.

But of course, he could simply be a sane, evil person who somehow managed to hide his murderous tendencies for his entire life. I'm sure it's possible.

[Leon]

This was premeditated for months and months. That is not an episode. Otherwise I tend to agree.

Originally Posted by Runscott

The Thorazine shuffle? Do you even know what Thorazine is for? It's used to treat Schizophrenia, which is a mental illness. If this man was in the middle of his first manic break as a schizophrenic, then he's mentally ill and was not acting with his own mind. First mental breaks normally occur for schizophrenic men in their 20's, and they are generally exceptionally intelligent and creative people, and the illness manifests itself as anger. Prior to the attack, there might have been some eccentric behavior, but no family wants to think their son is mentally ill, so it gets ignored. When the person comes down from the break (which might not even happen with a schizophrenic), they are generally horrified at what they have done.

Basically, if he's mentally ill, executing him is not going to give the family members any sense of justice. It will only give internet forum members a sense of justice.

But you're not alone - the only time an American generally has any desire to discuss mental illness is when something like this happens, and their solution is generally the same being suggested on this board - lethal injection. Any manifestation of mental illness that is less than horrible, is ignored, which is why Seattle and other cities have so many mentally ill people living on the streets.

But of course, he could simply be a sane, evil person who somehow managed to hide his murderous tendencies for his entire life. I'm sure it's possible.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Leon

This was premeditated for months and months. That is not an episode. Otherwise I tend to agree.

The reference to an antipsychotic for treating schizophrenia and bipolar disorder was what got my reaction. Like everyone else here, I obviously don't know what caused this man to do what he did.

But, yes - an 'episode' can actually last for 6 months or even a year, during which time the person's brain is quite different - his mental functions may actually get better in a lot of ways (more creative, artistic, quicker thinking, etc); however, there should have been some hints that he was having a problem.

Edited to add: Any time someone murders, people want justice. You can't get justice by executing someone who is insane, which is why people want insanity please to be bogus. But what if the person really is insane? Do you execute anyone who commits murder, whether they did it while in their right mind or not? I would argue that someone who accidentally runs his car into a crowd of people and kills 11 people is acting while in their right mind, while an insane person who plans the murder of 11 people is not. A person who was drunk and kills 11 people 'by accident' was acting in their right mind when they began drinking while their car keys were in their pocket.

[Matthew H]

Originally Posted by Runscott

The Thorazine shuffle? Do you even know what Thorazine is for? It's used to treat Schizophrenia, which is a mental illness. If this man was in the middle of his first manic break as a schizophrenic, then he's mentally ill and was not acting with his own mind. First mental breaks normally occur for schizophrenic men in their 20's, and they are generally exceptionally intelligent and creative people, and the illness manifests itself as anger. Prior to the attack, there might have been some eccentric behavior, but no family wants to think their son is mentally ill, so it gets ignored. When the person comes down from the break (which might not even happen with a schizophrenic), they are generally horrified at what they have done.

Basically, if he's mentally ill, executing him is not going to give the family members any sense of justice. It will only give internet forum members a sense of justice.

But you're not alone - the only time an American generally has any desire to discuss mental illness is when something like this happens, and their solution is generally the same being suggested on this board - lethal injection. Any manifestation of mental illness that is less than horrible, is ignored, which is why Seattle and other cities have so many mentally ill people living on the streets.

But of course, he could simply be a sane, evil person who somehow managed to hide his murderous tendencies for his entire life. I'm sure it's possible.

+1 Very well said...

Yes, an episode can last 6 months.... Actually much much longer if no one cares to notice. Just ask the homeless man talking to the telephone pole. I am very close to someone who suffers from schitzophrenia. People who fake being sick to cover for a crime are the worst. Definetly not great spokesmen for those wih real problems.

If he's sick, he's in for a rude awakening.

Also, it's a damn shame the only medication available for mental illness basically turns people into zombies.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Matthew H

Also, it's a damn shame the only medication available for mental illness basically turns people into zombies.

That's not actually the case. I can promise you, if this guy is in the middle of a schizophrenic or bipolar episode, there is no way he is going to take anything other than an antipsychotic, which can be legally injected into him and yes, may give him a zombie-like appearance. That's because such people do NOT think there is anything wrong with themselves - the part of the brain that is affected by the illness is also the part that gives insight, meaning that they are incapable of knowing that they are ill. With schizophrenics, getting them to take medication is an ongoing problem, as they never get insight. But there are medications that allow some of these people to function fine - sometimes with no side effects, and actually better than before their break.

I apologize if my posts have insulted anyone's intelligence, but I have met more schizophrenics and others with bipolar disorder, than I ever could have imagined, and the stories that their loved ones tell are heart-wrenching. I know that the family of the Cafe murderer here in Seattle, had been trying to get him help for a long time, but he refused it and was 'protected' from his family's and acquaintances' help by the HIPPA laws. The outcome was murder of several innocent people.

But again, the Colorado guy might be a different situation. I'm sure we'll find out at some point.

[bmarlowe1]

Originally Posted by yanks12025

Anyone see the car crash that killed 14 people in texas. Guess trucks should be banned next.

That analogy (and a few that were similar earlier in this thread) just doesn't seem like a rational statement to me, even if the truck deaths were intentional and not accidental. If all motorized vehicles disappeared, our civilization and economy would fall apart. If all high capacity firearms in private hands disappeared, I think we would do just fine.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by bmarlowe1

That analogy (and a few that were similar earlier in this thread) just doesn't seem like a rational statement to me, even if the truck deaths were intentional and not accidental. If all motorized vehicles disappeared, our civilization and economy would fall apart. If all high capacity firearms in private hands disappeared, I think we would do just fine.

His point was, when people want to kill other people, they'll find a way no matter what. They can use box cutters and air planes (9/11), ammonium nitrate and nitromethane (Timothy McVeigh - Oklahoma City bombing), cyanide-laced Kool Aid (Jim Jones), etc, etc, etc. I could give many examples of mass murder that was carried out by ways other than a gun. What are we going to do, ban anything that has ever been used as a means to kill people? Come on.

Edited to add: So, once again, let's quit focusing on how the nut jobs are killing people and focus on why the nut jobs are killing people. Maybe then we can stop it.

[bmarlowe1]

David - have you tried bringing box cutters on a plane lately (or tried bying a very large quantity of ammonium nitrate)? In contrast to what you have said, since those disasters the "methods" used have been an objective of regulation and substantially increased governmental scrutiny. While not foolproof, clearly some degree of success has been achieved.

Keep in mind that Jim Jones enforced his mass poisoning with automatic firearms.

[yanks12025]

If you want to hear other bad news, just this past week by where I live, a 16 and 15 year old are being charged with murdering two other kids that were 16 and 13. Right now they believe it to be over money and drugs and they think that the 15 year old was the trigger man.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by bmarlowe1

David - have you tried bringing box cutters on a plane lately (or tried bying a very large quantity of ammonium nitrate). In contrast to what you have said, since those disasters the "methods" used have been an objective of regulation and substantially increased governmental scrutiny. While not foolproof, clearly some degree of success has been achieved.

Ummm, underwear bomber? Shoe bomber? Fortunately these two idiots were stopped. My point is that the nut jobs will always find a way to kill people in masses. But you fail to understand my point. And, as long as you (and others) do, more senseless tragedies will occur because you want to focus on the how and not the why. You can have the last word. I'm done.

[bmarlowe1]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Ummm, underwear bomber? Shoe bomber? Fortunately these two idiots were stopped. My point is that the nut jobs will always find a way to kill people in masses. But you fail to understand my point. And, as long as you (and others) do, more senseless tragedies will occur because you want to focus on the how and not the why. You can have the last word. I'm done.

As to the underwear & shoe bombers, I said, "While not foolproof, clearly some degree of success has been achieved." I think that is right.

I understand your point - you are saying that because targeting methods is not perfect, it should not be done, and we should only target "why" (as if that would produce better results). I don't think that is logical. I did not say targeting methods was perfect, I said it can be effective. Shoe bomber and underwear bomber notwithstanding, targeting methods clearly has been very effective with respect to the examples you presented.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Ummm, underwear bomber? Shoe bomber? Fortunately these two idiots were stopped. My point is that the nut jobs will always find a way to kill people in masses. But you fail to understand my point. And, as long as you (and others) do, more senseless tragedies will occur because you want to focus on the how and not the why. You can have the last word. I'm done.

David, it seems to me even more quixotic to try to eradicate all mental illness (or, if he's sane, to eradicate all the horrible life experiences that lead people to break with society) than to control guns. I agree with the goal, but it seems unachievable. Suppose we learn that he was an abuse victim. What do we do with that knowledge?