Getting Auction LOAs upgraded to full cert - I know its been discussed before

[travrosty]

jsa and psa admit that an auction loa is a cursory review, a quick glance, we looked at it from a moving car going 85 miles an hour and as we whizzed past, we saw something maybe that made us think this might be good. now pay us more and we will do our jobs. They use weasel words to get them off the hook, saying that it is a preliminary cursory review, but as jim said, does the autograph change? why cant they take a good look at it and figure it out at that time? why guess? they are admitting it is a a guesstimate.

[JimStinson]

A weather man should not need to look out the window 20 times to tell you if its raining outside. It either is or it isn't.
It its raining and he tells you it IS thats a FACT ! which means take a snapshot of it and it will still be a picture of a rainy day 100 years from now. If he THINKS it might rain thats an opinion.
If he tells you its not raining and you can clearly see it IS , he is no longer a weatherman he is called something else

[drc]

Your theory is all wet, Jim Rewrite it and I might upgrade it to partly cloudy.

[JimStinson]

[JimStinson]

I guess ultimately its "perception" of value and if getting multiple opinions and paying over and over for the same thing makes someone happy...why "rain on their parade"
________________________
Vintage Autographs For Sale Daily
stinsonsports.com

[Plinvestments]

Originally Posted by travrosty

jsa and psa admit that an auction loa is a cursory review, a quick glance, we looked at it from a moving car going 85 miles an hour and as we whizzed past, we saw something maybe that made us think this might be good. now pay us more and we will do our jobs. They use weasel words to get them off the hook, saying that it is a preliminary cursory review, but as jim said, does the autograph change? why cant they take a good look at it and figure it out at that time? why guess? they are admitting it is a a guesstimate.

PSA has changed their policy. All auction pre-certified items are now guaranteed and they can't weasel out of it.

I also don't find the comparisons to mechanics or doctors to be true. Nobody is paying multiple times for the same opinion. The original opinion is paid by the seller or auction house, and believe me, I don't believe Heritage or any other auctioneer pays very much. They are offering this as a service.

If the auction winner decides he wants a full cert, he can pay for one like any other un-certified piece he buys. He's paying once. Auction buyers are very savvy. The only ones really hurt by high buyer's premiums, shipping fees, authentication fees, etc are the sellers. All of this is priced in in the bidding price. Look at the hammer prices for common auction items and you will see this bear out over and over again.

[Lordstan]

Originally Posted by Plinvestments

PSA has changed their policy. All auction pre-certified items are now guaranteed and they can't weasel out of it.

I also don't find the comparisons to mechanics or doctors to be true. Nobody is paying multiple times for the same opinion. The original opinion is paid by the seller or auction house, and believe me, I don't believe Heritage or any other auctioneer pays very much. They are offering this as a service.

If the auction winner decides he wants a full cert, he can pay for one like any other un-certified piece he buys. He's paying once. Auction buyers are very savvy. The only ones really hurt by high buyer's premiums, shipping fees, authentication fees, etc are the sellers. All of this is priced in in the bidding price. Look at the hammer prices for common auction items and you will see this bear out over and over again.

Ok so now I'm confused.

What is PSA guaranteeing exactly? That all items precerted will pass?
This means
A) They are looking closely at the item prior to the auction and charging the auction house. Then, because it's "guaranteed" they don't really have to look at it when you send it in and pay more for the full cert. So they get paid twice for the same service.

B) They are giving it a cursory glance prior to auctioning and charging the auction house. Then they look at it in more detail when the buyer sends it in. Again, paid twice for the same service.

As far as the guarantee, doesn't it already work that way? If you buy something with an auction cert and it then fails full cert, the auction house will refund you for the item. So what extra are you getting by PSAs guarantee?

Lastly, of course, the buyer pays for both certifications. The exact reason may people use TPA's is the fact they believe the item will sell for more with a cert.
Choice 1...Dimaggio Mantle 8x10 without cert - $300
Choice 2...Same picture with PSA or JSA - $500-600.
The buyer is absolutely paying for the cost of the cert!

[Plinvestments]

Originally Posted by Lordstan

Ok so now I'm confused.

What is PSA guaranteeing exactly? That all items precerted will pass?
This means
A) They are looking closely at the item prior to the auction and charging the auction house. Then, because it's "guaranteed" they don't really have to look at it when you send it in and pay more for the full cert. So they get paid twice for the same service.

B) They are giving it a cursory glance prior to auctioning and charging the auction house. Then they look at it in more detail when the buyer sends it in. Again, paid twice for the same service.

As far as the guarantee, doesn't it already work that way? If you buy something with an auction cert and it then fails full cert, the auction house will refund you for the item. So what extra are you getting by PSAs guarantee?

Lastly, of course, the buyer pays for both certifications. The exact reason may people use TPA's is the fact they believe the item will sell for more with a cert.
Choice 1...Dimaggio Mantle 8x10 without cert - $300
Choice 2...Same picture with PSA or JSA - $500-600.
The buyer is absolutely paying for the cost of the cert!

A) They ARE looking closely at the items pre-auction. They DON'T charge the auction house very much. Maybe just enough to cover expenses. Its a good marketing play for them and the auction house. PSA knows that the auction houses wouldn't pay them for a full cert. A Mantle costs $100 to cert. Even with a dealer discount, no auction house will pay $50 or $75. PSA offers to do a pre-cert for a nominal fee, and hope that the end buyer pays for a full cert. I don't know what the sell-through is - 20%? 50%? 70%? Even at 10%, this would be very profitable for PSA.

B) Because the item is not a full LOA, the lots don't sell for that kind of premium. Here's an example, PSA cut Mantle Autos have sold on Ebay over the last 90 days for as low as $250 but on average, they go for about $300-$350. Several Mantle examples have sold at auction for a fraction of that. With buyers premium, a 4x6 postcard sold for $120, a lot of 2 8x10's sold for $448, a cut and a signed print went for $239. I didn't cherry pick auctions. This is the norm. These items were pre-certified which means they are guaranteed a PSA LOA if you pay. The benefit of an auction pre-cert to the buyer is that you can be assured of a passing TPA, get a discount on the fee, and pay non-TPA prices for items.

C) Here is the text from PSA website:

"A PSA/DNA Pre-Certified lot is one that has been reviewed by PSA/DNA autograph experts. The winning bidder of any lot that contains this special designation will be eligible for a substantial discount if they choose to submit the autographs directly to PSA/DNA. To take advantage of this special offer, the items must be submitted within 60 days of the auction close with receipt or proof of purchase from the auction house. The rate chart for Pre-Certified lots can be found on www.psadna.com under List of Services.

This service was designed to notify potential bidders that the autographed lot in question will pass PSA/DNA if they choose to submit the item for authentication immediately following the auction. Not only will the winning bidder be eligible for a substantial discount, they will also receive all of the benefits that full authentication provides (noted above)."

[travrosty]

psa doesnt guarantee a precerted item will get a cert, sure they say it, but if they get the item in and change their mind, they will fail it. they have no guarantee, they expressly say on their website that any autograph authentication that they do is an opinion, and no guarantee is in effect.

whats the guarantee? when they say precert WILL pass full authentication? they don't say what the guarantee entails because there is no guarantee. read again, psa has no guarantee. they have never had a guarantee.

You have to pay more than once because the first time you 'pay' is when you compete with other bidders at auction who think the psa or jsa auction loa means something, so the price goes higher, because they think they are getting a certed item. but lo and behold, switcheroo, you didnt get what you thought you were getting, you have to pay AGAIN! stinks!


its not surgery or x rays, its an autograph, and to say you didnt do a competent thorough job the first time around, but you will if someone ponies up, stinks.

[Plinvestments]

Originally Posted by travrosty

psa doesnt guarantee a precerted item will get a cert, sure they say it, but if they get the item in and change their mind, they will fail it. they have no guarantee, they expressly say on their website that any autograph authentication that they do is an opinion, and no guarantee is in effect.

whats the guarantee? when they say precert WILL pass full authentication? they don't say what the guarantee entails because there is no guarantee. read again, psa has no guarantee. they have never had a guarantee.

You have to pay more than once because the first time you 'pay' is when you compete with other bidders at auction who think the psa or jsa auction loa means something, so the price goes higher, because they think they are getting a certed item. but lo and behold, switcheroo, you didnt get what you thought you were getting, you have to pay AGAIN! stinks!


its not surgery or x rays, its an autograph, and to say you didnt do a competent thorough job the first time around, but you will if someone ponies up, stinks.

Actually, they use the word "Guarantee" on the website. I have seen people bring in pre-certified items at shows. It doesn't even make it to the authenticators. The girls put stickers on the items. Below from psa website:

PSA/DNA Pre-Certified
As a hobbyist, you may see the PSA/DNA Pre-Certified logo in various auction house catalogues or online. It is a service unique to auctions and to autographs found within. The purpose of the service is to let the prospective bidders know whether an autographed auction item will pass PSA/DNA should that person win the item and want to send it in for authentication immediately after the auction closes. If you see the Pre-Certified logo, it means the item has been reviewed by our experts and is absolutely guaranteed to pass.

[thenavarro]

Originally Posted by travrosty

You have to pay more than once because the first time you 'pay' is when you compete with other bidders at auction who think the psa or jsa auction loa means something, so the price goes higher, because they think they are getting a certed item. but lo and behold, switcheroo, you didnt get what you thought you were getting, you have to pay AGAIN! stinks!

I thought I remember you always arguing that a TPA adds nothing to the selling price of autographs, and now I read this.

Which way is it?

Or does it change depending on which argument you are trying to make?

Just wondering,

Mike

[sports-rings]

I think that we need to hold the auction houses more responsible. We are spending a lot of money to win these auctions and I feel the auction houses should make every effort to make sure the signature, or any item they sell is authentic. Why should auction houses take a questionable item and put it in an auction? The better auction houses like Robert Edward and Lelands have a solid reputation and make every effort to make sure the items in their auctions are sound. It's their reputation at stake and auction houses that give it a "once over" need to make a better effort. Yes, I realize JSA and PSA make errors, but when in doubt, the auction houses should pay for a full JSA or PSA certificate. They will in all probability make the small cost back in greater prices realized.