Getting Auction LOAs upgraded to full cert - I know its been discussed before

[Plinvestments]

Psa guarantees that pre-certified items will pass full cert. you have 60 days to get the discounted price, but it will pass even if you wait longer.

[markf31]

Originally Posted by Plinvestments

Psa guarantees that pre-certified items will pass full cert. you have 60 days to get the discounted price, but it will pass even if you wait longer.

Thanks for the information, it was hard to locate amongst all the sarcasm in the thread!

[JimStinson]

The sarcasm was in jest, but if you think about it would the average consumer tolerate the same concept in everyday life.
For example I take my car to the mechanic and when I pick it up and pay the bill he tells me,
"Jim I really did not do the work on your car to the best of my ability even though I was paid to do so, But if you would like to bring it back in 30 days I will do the job correctly even though it will cost you more, NEXT time I'll give it my full attention"
or in a restauant , the waitress says when she brings you your meal.
"The chef was very busy today, and your meal was prepared quickly and you might even get sick eating it but if you'll bring back your reciept next time you eat here and hand the chef a $20.00 in addition to the price already on the menu he'll make absolutely certain he gets it right next time"

[markf31]

I know it was in jest.

Those examples aren’t really relevant to this argument. Here's a real life situation comparing more apples to apples as far as circumstances and level of service go. You have x-rays taken and sent to a specialist doctor. The specialist doctor examines the x-rays. The doctors says he'd like to see you in person for a more thorough and complete examination, to make some determinations he maybe can’t quite make just by looking at the x-ray. Guess what, he will be charging you for the x-ray evaluation, and additionally he will be charging you more for an in person office examination and visit. Do you expect the doctor to not charge you for the x-ray evaluation? Or do you expect him to discount the office visit because he already charged you for the x-ray evaluation? What if the doctor saw nothing wrong in the x-ray, but determines that you infact suffered a ligament strain or damage, something he determined with the office visit but was unable to determine in the x-ray? Do you expect him to offer you a partial refund because his first opinion was inaccurate?

[JimStinson]

Good point ! but medicine is a SCIENCE based on facts, Like gravity and inarguable laws. I hope before a doctor cuts me open, hacks off a limb or pronounces me dead .....That he has a little more to go on than a "Vague notion" or an opinion or hunch

[drc]

I agree that if you want the full LOA, if merely to have a fancy piece of paper, PSA is going to charge you. That's the way all businesses work. The collector isn't required to get the full LOA if he doesn't want it. It's his choice. And, better than the radiologist, the charges are stated up front.

[markf31]

Originally Posted by JimStinson

Good point ! but medicine is a SCIENCE based on facts, Like gravity and inarguable laws. I hope before a doctor cuts me open, hacks off a limb or pronounces me dead .....That he has a little more to go on than a "Vague notion" or an opinion or hunch

Its not an exact science. You can goto multiple doctors and get mutiple opinions on what can be wrong with you, sometimes these opinions can be glaringly different.

If you follow hockey look at the Sidney Crosby saga. Team doctors and even 2nd opinion doctors said he suffered a concussion and concussion related symptoms. A last resort specialist in Florida concluded that Crosby infact suffered a neck injury that was causing his concussion like symptons. There is a reason why they call it a 2nd, or 3rd opinion in the medical field.

[JimStinson]

Originally Posted by markf31

I know it was in jest.

Those examples aren’t really relevant to this argument. Here's a real life situation comparing more apples to apples as far as circumstances and level of service go. You have x-rays taken and sent to a specialist doctor. The specialist doctor examines the x-rays. The doctors says he'd like to see you in person for a more thorough and complete examination, to make some determinations he maybe can’t quite make just by looking at the x-ray. Guess what, he will be charging you for the x-ray evaluation, and additionally he will be charging you more for an in person office examination and visit. Do you expect the doctor to not charge you for the x-ray evaluation? Or do you expect him to discount the office visit because he already charged you for the x-ray evaluation?

On second thought its not a good point (smile) because the doctor THE FIRST TIME has all the tools at his disposal (or should have) to determine the condition including the original X-RAYS ! And specialist IN-HOUSE when he advertised (or sold) his service the first time. The only way this would not apply is if the actual medical condition would change over time. I have never ever one time in my life seen an autograph "Morph" or "evolve" while sitting on the shelf. In fact it will look the exact same next year as it does today.

[travrosty]

jsa and psa admit that an auction loa is a cursory review, a quick glance, we looked at it from a moving car going 85 miles an hour and as we whizzed past, we saw something maybe that made us think this might be good. now pay us more and we will do our jobs. They use weasel words to get them off the hook, saying that it is a preliminary cursory review, but as jim said, does the autograph change? why cant they take a good look at it and figure it out at that time? why guess? they are admitting it is a a guesstimate.

[JimStinson]

A weather man should not need to look out the window 20 times to tell you if its raining outside. It either is or it isn't.
It its raining and he tells you it IS thats a FACT ! which means take a snapshot of it and it will still be a picture of a rainy day 100 years from now. If he THINKS it might rain thats an opinion.
If he tells you its not raining and you can clearly see it IS , he is no longer a weatherman he is called something else

[Plinvestments]

Originally Posted by travrosty

jsa and psa admit that an auction loa is a cursory review, a quick glance, we looked at it from a moving car going 85 miles an hour and as we whizzed past, we saw something maybe that made us think this might be good. now pay us more and we will do our jobs. They use weasel words to get them off the hook, saying that it is a preliminary cursory review, but as jim said, does the autograph change? why cant they take a good look at it and figure it out at that time? why guess? they are admitting it is a a guesstimate.

PSA has changed their policy. All auction pre-certified items are now guaranteed and they can't weasel out of it.

I also don't find the comparisons to mechanics or doctors to be true. Nobody is paying multiple times for the same opinion. The original opinion is paid by the seller or auction house, and believe me, I don't believe Heritage or any other auctioneer pays very much. They are offering this as a service.

If the auction winner decides he wants a full cert, he can pay for one like any other un-certified piece he buys. He's paying once. Auction buyers are very savvy. The only ones really hurt by high buyer's premiums, shipping fees, authentication fees, etc are the sellers. All of this is priced in in the bidding price. Look at the hammer prices for common auction items and you will see this bear out over and over again.

[Lordstan]

Originally Posted by markf31

I know it was in jest.

Those examples aren’t really relevant to this argument. Here's a real life situation comparing more apples to apples as far as circumstances and level of service go. You have x-rays taken and sent to a specialist doctor. The specialist doctor examines the x-rays. The doctors says he'd like to see you in person for a more thorough and complete examination, to make some determinations he maybe can’t quite make just by looking at the x-ray. Guess what, he will be charging you for the x-ray evaluation, and additionally he will be charging you more for an in person office examination and visit. Do you expect the doctor to not charge you for the x-ray evaluation? Or do you expect him to discount the office visit because he already charged you for the x-ray evaluation? What if the doctor saw nothing wrong in the x-ray, but determines that you infact suffered a ligament strain or damage, something he determined with the office visit but was unable to determine in the x-ray? Do you expect him to offer you a partial refund because his first opinion was inaccurate?

Mark,
I'm sorry this example doesn't happen in real life.
As a physician, I can clearly state that there is no situation where a doctor will look at an xray and offer an opinion, that he will get paid for, without seeing the patient first.

In your example, X-rays are "taken". Who ordered them? The ER, family doctor, or specialist. If the ER or Family Doc orders the x-ray, it is secondary to a visit where the patient has been examined first and has been determined to need the test. The family doc will charge you for the visit. In ER, the physician will charge you for their services and the hospital will also charge for use of the facility. The ER and Family docs will not charge to read the x-ray. Neither of them will charge you an "X-ray evaluation" fee. Now, in this example, a radiologist will charge you for the official interpretation of the x-ray. That doctor will not have seen you or offered any opinion as to the nature of your injury. He/She will only opine on what the picture shows.

Now, if the ER or family physicians still feel your injury is somehow unclear or requiring further care, they may send you to see a specialist. That specialist will examine you and review the x-rays previously taken. They will charge you for that evaluation, which includes reviewing all related data from tests done previously, but will not charge again to read the x-ray.

As your example doesn't fit, I do think Jim's two prior examples do exactly fit this situation. You are paying twice for the same service.

In my mind the auction LOAs are a money making scam. They increase the final auction prices realized by increasing bidder confidence, and then increase revenue for the TPA, by incentivising further payment for a "full" LOA.

IMHO,
Mark Vel@rde

[Exhibitman]

That Mantle story sucks, Dave. FWIW, I do not believe that JSA or any merchant paid with a credit card could give you a credit instead of a refund if the item failed the full cert. The back of the JSA ALOA form clearly states that "In the rare event that our opinion differs from our original consultation with the auction house, no upgrade fee will be charged." If I got a credit and I wanted a refund, I would demand it and if JSA refused, dispute the charge.

As to why not have a full LOA up front, well, there are many answers to that one, but only one that counts: MONEY! The ALOA is a lot cheaper for the auctioneer to get and if the buyer wants the COA he needs to spend another $50 to 'upgrade' the ALOA to the full LOA. Everyone makes money, except the buyer, of course.

Another thing that infuriates me about the ALOA is that JSA has been refining the fine print to make the already feckless ALOA even less useful. I recently won some authographed items from Clean Sweep, with the JSA ALOAs on them. One item that I got had a JSA ALOA from 2008. The other one had a new ALOA. When comparing the fine print on the backs I noticed that the 2008 ALOA has no expiration date. You can hold it for years and not use it, then exercise the upgrade right when you decide to sell, or just pass the ALOA to the buyer as an ALOA that they can exercise or not as they choose. That seems fair to me. The new 'improved' ALOA expires in 45 days! I cannot tell you how pissed off I am to buy an 'authenticated' item that has an expiration date akin to a tub of yogurt unless I dump another $50 into it.

Which brings me to my next peevish pet peeve about the ALOA: Some auctioneers do not differentiate between a full LOA and the ALOA in their listings. They just say "JSA LOA" when they mean ALOA. It should be clearly and carefully disclosed. The ALOA thus lends itself to abusive sales tactics. I was pleasantly surprised recently to actually bid on an item with a full LOA from an AH. Unsurprisingly, it was from Lew Lipset, who runs an old-school honest operation. Funny story on that: I took the item to the JSA reps at the Glendale CA show in the spring and asked to have the PC encapsulated by SGC. JSA wanted $25 to do it. I asked SGC to do it directly and it costs $15.