Can't slab--only one known?

[packs]

Maybe they can't verify that it isn't a fantasy piece. Have you verified that there was a Cash Clothing Store in Sedgwick, Colorado?

[Deertick]

Originally Posted by packs

Maybe they can't verify that it isn't a fantasy piece. Have you verified that there was a Cash Clothing Store in Sedgwick, Colorado?

Haven't found anything on The Clothing Store, but verified and Ira Dobson b.1866, resided in Sedgwick, Summit Co, Colorado in 1910. About the age to be a proprieter, no?

http://files.usgwarchives.net/co/sed...dgwick-a-l.txt

[jim]

Have you tried to get PSA to slab it?

[glchen]

Originally Posted by jim

Have you tried to get PSA to slab it?

PSA would not slab it. They are even more stringent than SGC and will only slab cards that are in the Standard Catalog or something equivalent.

[jim]

if neither of the top two will slab it, that says that they do not know it's authenticity. a future potential buyer will then have to rely, on what, for the piece to be real?

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by jim

if neither of the top two will slab it, that says that they do not know it's authenticity. a future potential buyer will then have to rely, on what, for the piece to be real?

Their eyes and their brains, along with those of the auction house experts. What a concept!

[tbob]

I have a card of Frank Chance which is identical to an E95 Chance except that the caption lists him as playing/coaching with the Yankees rather than the Cubs and the card has a blank back. I aslo have a card of Johnny Kling with is identical to an E96 Kling except the caption lists him as playing with the Braves instead of the Cubs and the card has a blank back. There is one more card in this group (can't remember the name but it was identical to an E96) which was purchased by Keith Olberman and had the same different team name and a blank back. SGC said the cards couldn't be slabbed when I asked about 7-8 years ago because these cards had never seen before. E95 are from 1909, E96s are from 1910. Chance coached the Yankees in 1913 and 1914. These are one of a kind cards, possibly color proofs of a planned set which never materialized.
The card weight and texture is very similar to the E97 black and white card set.
I know a few posters on this board thought that they must be from those notebook covers, rather than proofs, but Kling was never included among the cards pictured. Chance was included on the notebook cover but is listed as Chance Chi. Natl. not New York AL.
The cards still remain one of a kind whose origin is unknown. I haven't checked with SGC lately to see if they might slab them as E unknown series cards. Now that they have begun slabbing E93 and E97 blank backs in the past few years, I might try.
P.S. Here is a picture of the Notebook Cover published in 1913 and you will note that the Chance "card" is captioned as his being with the Cubs.

Any business even back then was registered. So if you can't find proof of existence of a clothing store then I would lean towards fantasy piece well done and neat looking. BTW isn't that pose from an exhibit?

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by Pup6913

Any business even back then was registered. So if you can't find proof of existence of a clothing store then I would lean towards fantasy piece well done and neat looking. BTW isn't that pose from an exhibit?

Registered with whom? But you're on the right track--enough research, perhaps just a phone book, should reveal the existence of the Cash Clothing Store. Of course, what would that really prove, as a smart forger would certainly use a known entity for his concoction? Nobody with any experience seeing this card close up would need anybody else to tell them it's real and vintage, and for that reason I'm not concerned about whether it appears in the auction slabbed or not. In fact, I would use the fact that none of the TPAs could slab it for lack of another known example as a plus, showing that it could, indeed, be a true one-of-a-kind. I just find it strange that TPAs can never authenticate that kind of rarity, but I guess they have good reasons for that. BTW, I've seen this same artwork on two different pieces, a Crack-A-Jack uniforms salesman's sample book page and this one, cut out from a Faithorn Company (Chicago) calendar issued in 1912

[Hankphenom]

Here's the other image:

[packs]

Seems like you should be able to locate the business in a search.

State and local goverment. I could make fake cards using old pages from books and cardstock, period ink, and a small press. Does that make them real? It's all period except when it was made. With the right tools an enough knowledge and patience any body could recreate period/fantasy pieces

[71buc]

The artist is likely J.C Leyendecker. He was active during Johnson's era and specialized in Advertising art relating to men's fashion. Legendary auctions (see below) sold an item with the same image as part of a fabric catalog circa 1910. Whatever it is, it is very attractive example of baseball and advertising art from one of my favorite American illustrators congratulations on a great pick up and good luck with it.

http://www.americanartarchives.com/leyendecker,jc.htm

http://www.legendaryauctions.com/Lot...px?lotid=45003

Originally Posted by Pup6913

State and local goverment. I could make fake cards using old pages from books and cardstock, period ink, and a small press. Does that make them real? It's all period except when it was made. With the right tools an enough knowledge and patience any body could recreate period/fantasy pieces

To add the state of CO has never had a business registered anywhere in the archives from 1900-1930's by that name. The Colorado public library also has no archives, newspaper adds, or anything else of any company by that name. Something is not adding up. Only the name of a man is all we have and his profession was not listed. Seems if he owned or ran a men's clothing shop that it would be something to mention right?

[Bugsy]

Originally Posted by Pup6913

To add the state of CO has never had a business registered anywhere in the archives from 1900-1930's by that name. The Colorado public library also has no archives, newspaper adds, or anything else of any company by that name.

A large amount of information on businesses was never indexed and never will never be searchable in digital format. When looking at trade ads, you are at the mercy of the librarian or info-pro would created hit words for each page of microform. As far as finding aids go, a library may have created finding aids for newspapers, but only significant features are indexe. A trade ad for Joe Schmoe's clothing store would never be important enough to make an index. You would basically have to go through microform page-by-page, looking for a needle in a haystack. The info is out there; finding it is the issue.

[Bugsy]

I should also mention that it might be worthwhile calling a reference librarian in the Colorado public library system. The might have access to some materials that are not available online. They might also have a few connections to other local resources not in the CO public library system (i.e. a private library) that might have what you need.

Good luck!

Chris

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by 71buc

The artist is likely J.C Leyendecker. He was active during Johnson's era and specialized in Advertising art relating to men's fashion. Legendary auctions (see below) sold an item with the same image as part of a fabric catalog circa 1910. Whatever it is, it is very attractive example of baseball and advertising art from one of my favorite American illustrators congratulations on a great pick up and good luck with it.

http://www.americanartarchives.com/leyendecker,jc.htm

http://www.legendaryauctions.com/Lot...px?lotid=45003

Thanks, Mike. The artist signed the calendar piece, but I can't make it out, could be Krompton or Brompton, first initial might be J. What I'm having trouble with as far as TPA is this: just because a card is known to exist doesn't make any new example of it legit. Fakes and reprints abound. So to authenticate a newly presented example, the TPA has to look beyond the history of the issue and the image to all the other factors: materials used, evidence of aging, etc, all the forensic things I assume they do routinely. So why can't they just do the same forensics with a piece that has no other example? Seems pretty simple to me.

[Batter67up]

I went through the same issue in 2009 with the card below as both PSA and SGC had never seen it. I had to provide them information from a book from 1990 to show them details on it and it still took 3 weeks for them to decide to give it an Authentic Grade and a date of 1920's c. They would not give it a numeric grade even though the book provided specifications on the card. The book also showed this as a 1919 card. I did get some assistance from Dan McKee as he has a similiar card and provided pictures to them of it. Rob Lifson also gave me a call about the card and said it was authentic and he actually owned one back in the 70's and hadn't seen one since.

[Exhibitman]

I think they're being appropriately cautious. Back before they underwent all of the regime change the usual practice when they got a unique item was to call around to various people they know who are expert in the particular field [I used to get a lot of those calls from SGC over boxing cards] to get an ID and a verification on an item. I was also told that since I was the rolodex go-to guy on boxing issues, if I sent in something completely different they'd take my word for it. That said, what Steve says sounds about right in terms of approach [aside: I envy you that card, Steve; I was chasing it too if it is the one that was auctioned this last season]. Perhaps some of the people in the know here can intercede with SGC for you?