Babe Ruth?

[shelly]

never mind

[shelly]

never mind

[JT]

Shelly,

You asked him this question before and he answered you as I quoted above.

Go to post 270.

[slidekellyslide]

Here it is Shelly....

Originally Posted by rscheck

I did. One other guy based on the same photos I sent Ron and Josh. He made an offer on the ticket but I thought it was low. The whole thing involved a couple of emails in the beginning of January....thats when I settled on H&S

[shelly]

Sorry, I really never saw that reply. Dan please take down my question. I have no idea how to.

[Runscott]

Shelly, you have the same problem I have. It's no big deal.

(I'm waiting impatiently for this thread to 'rev up again today )

[hugginsandscott]

Originally Posted by jgmp123

In the end, H&S will not pull the item and it will sell north of $5000. Thy are getting paid twice off that for an item that has been authenticated by the guys they use. They are an auction house and really owe nothing to the hobby, so why waste anymore time with this thread.

Would you say the same thing to Leon? I can't express how much I disagree with this statement, and actually take offense to it.
Josh

[jgmp123]

Originally Posted by hugginsandscott

Would you say the same thing to Leon? I can't express how much I disagree with this statement, and actually take offense to it.
Josh

Josh,

Okay if you disagree then please answer...

What does Leon have to do with my statement?

What do you owe the hobby?

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by hugginsandscott

Would you say the same thing to Leon? I can't express how much I disagree with this statement, and actually take offense to it.
Josh

H&S has always been stand-up and has provided as much or more evidence of feeling they owe something to the hobby, as any auction house around.

I won't put words in the OP's mouth, but I have a hard time believing he really meant that statement "They are an auction house and really owe nothing to the hobby"

[jgmp123]

.My concern is the person that is going to pay through the nose for an item that may or may not be real.
That is it.

I guess I shouldn't care that much, but as seen in other cases JSA/PSA/SGC sometimes they get it wrong.

My point to Huggins and Scott and the "They are an auction house and really owe nothing to the hobby" quote is referenced below:

8. You will pay us a commission of 15%-20% (higher dollar items may be negotiated lower)
of the successful bid price for each item or lot sold, depending on which auction your
memorabilia is sold in. You will also be responsible for any related expenses, such as grading
fees, autograph authentication, game used authentication, etc., unless otherwise agreed upon, in
writing.

You are an auction house (Business) and owe nothing to the hobby.

[hugginsandscott]

Originally Posted by jgmp123

Josh,

Okay if you disagree then please answer...

What does Leon have to do with my statement?

What do you owe the hobby?

Leon runs an auction house. Do you feel he owes nothing to the hobby? Bill Huggins has been in this hobby since 1976. I have been with him since 1985. Is it a business? Yes. It is also a hobby? Yes. To dismiss our integrity by saying "we owe nothing to the hobby" is a presumptuous statement about who we are as people. We have always done the right thing, in the best interest of the hobby. If there is a problem, we address it in an open and honest manner.
For this particular case, I don't think we have done anything wrong. I guess I don't understand how "you feel for someone who is going to purchase a piece from us." I promise you, anyone who is going to spend the kind of money that this piece is going to sell for, has their own opinions and beliefs about the validity of the piece. They trust the authenticators and their opinions and therefore they are going to spend their money on a piece they like. What business that is of yours, I'm not quite sure. Additionally, all I've received from anyone in this thread is opinion. I had a conversation with Chris yesterday where he told me in a "factual manner" that this was no good, but he couldn't really reveal his sources on certain questions that were unanswered (including why he thought PSA rejected it, when they have never seen it). He told me the ticket was "bullshit", although again, there is no proof of that and I infact showed other tickets stamped exactly the same way for a different game from this series. He told me that I needed to tell JSA the name of the forger, but I promise you that if Chris was so sure that this was done by that forger, JSA has a very similar exemplar file with examples from that forger and after showing to JSA two different times, he still felt, in his opinion, that this autograph is good. We also showed it to SGC's ticket authenticator for a second time, and they still think it's good. For our auction, those are two of the third party authenticators that we use and offer our items for sale with. The people who bid on those items trust those peoples opinions and bid accordingly.
To be very honest, I have never sold any piece with a Chris Williams LOA (nor have I ever seen one). I also have never been asked by a single bidder of ours if we could get a Chris Williams LOA for one of our pieces, so we don't use him as an authenticator. Conversely, we have been asked more times than I can count for authentication from JSA, SGC or PSA, so those are the ones we use.
I'm sorry for the long winded response, but James, your assumptions about our integrity really got under my skin.
Josh Wulkan
Vice President
Huggins and Scott Auctions

[David Atkatz]

Originally Posted by jgmp123

.My concern is the person that is going to pay through the nose for an item that may or may not be real.
That is it.

I guess I shouldn't care that much, but as seen in other cases JSA/PSA/SGC sometimes they get it wrong.

My point to Huggins and Scott and the "They are an auction house and really owe nothing to the hobby" quote is referenced below:

8. You will pay us a commission of 15%-20% (higher dollar items may be negotiated lower)
of the successful bid price for each item or lot sold, depending on which auction your
memorabilia is sold in. You will also be responsible for any related expenses, such as grading
fees, autograph authentication, game used authentication, etc., unless otherwise agreed upon, in
writing.

You are an auction house (Business) and owe nothing to the hobby.

Do you think, say, Richard sells autographs for less than he paid for them? He's a business, too, so, according to your (absurd) blanket statement neither Richard, nor Jim, nor... "owe anything to the hobby."

[jgmp123]

Josh,

See that is where you are mistaken, I never once mentioned anything about your "integrity". To say you own nothing to the hobby, is not a question of your "integrity".

What gets under my skin is this statement on your website....

At Huggins & Scott, we take great pride in only offering "IRONCLAD", "LEAD PIPE", "NO QUESTIONS ASKED" autographs.

and this one....

AFTER 30 DAYS, THERE ARE NO REFUNDS, EXCHANGES OR CREDITS! ALSO, THE ENTIRE LOT MUST BE INTACT AND IN THE SAME FORM AS WHEN IT WAS SOLD IN ORDER TO RECEIVE ANY CREDIT OR REFUND CONSIDERATIONS - NO EXCEPTIONS!!

What if the exception was that PSA/DNA said an item was bad?

[slidekellyslide]

James, what proof do you have that this autograph and ticket are forgeries? None. JSA has looked at it twice. JSA (whether anyone agrees or disagrees with them) is the standard in the hobby. And to me it very much sounded like you questioned their integrity and I'm not surprised that Josh took offense to it.

[hugginsandscott]

Originally Posted by jgmp123

Josh,

See that is where you are mistaken, I never once mentioned anything about your "integrity". To say you own nothing to the hobby, is not a question of your "integrity".

What gets under my skin is this statement on your website....

At Huggins & Scott, we take great pride in only offering "IRONCLAD", "LEAD PIPE", "NO QUESTIONS ASKED" autographs.

and this one....

AFTER 30 DAYS, THERE ARE NO REFUNDS, EXCHANGES OR CREDITS! ALSO, THE ENTIRE LOT MUST BE INTACT AND IN THE SAME FORM AS WHEN IT WAS SOLD IN ORDER TO RECEIVE ANY CREDIT OR REFUND CONSIDERATIONS - NO EXCEPTIONS!!

What if the exception was that PSA/DNA said an item was bad?

that rarely happens, and when it does, we deal with those on a case by case basis with the winning bidder and the TPA's to get an amicable resolution for all. I am going to stop now.
Josh

[David Atkatz]

Originally Posted by hugginsandscott

...I had a conversation with Chris yesterday where he told me in a "factual manner" that this was no good, but he couldn't really reveal his sources on certain questions that were unanswered (including why he thought PSA rejected it, when they have never seen it). He told me the ticket was "bullshit", although again, there is no proof of that and I infact showed other tickets stamped exactly the same way for a different game from this series. He told me that I needed to tell JSA the name of the forger, but I promise you that if Chris was so sure that this was done by that forger, JSA has a very similar exemplar file with examples from that forger and after showing to JSA two different times, he still felt, in his opinion, that this autograph is good.

What professionalism on Chris' part! LOL!

From the very beginning--the start of this thread ten days ago--Chris has had absolutely nothing. Asked countless times to put his money where his mouth is... again, and again, nothing.

Because there is nothing. (Nothing, that is, but Chris' bluster.)

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by hugginsandscott

I had a conversation with Chris yesterday where he told me in a "factual manner" that this was no good, but he couldn't really reveal his sources on certain questions that were unanswered (including why he thought PSA rejected it, when they have never seen it). He told me the ticket was "bullshit", although again, there is no proof of that and I infact showed other tickets stamped exactly the same way for a different game from this series. He told me that I needed to tell JSA the name of the forger, but I promise you that if Chris was so sure that this was done by that forger, JSA has a very similar exemplar file with examples from that forger and after showing to JSA two different times, he still felt, in his opinion, that this autograph is good. We also showed it to SGC's ticket authenticator for a second time, and they still think it's good. For our auction, those are two of the third party authenticators that we use and offer our items for sale with. The people who bid on those items trust those peoples opinions and bid accordingly.
To be very honest, I have never sold any piece with a Chris Williams LOA (nor have I ever seen one). I also have never been asked by a single bidder of ours if we could get a Chris Williams LOA for one of our pieces, so we don't use him as an authenticator. Conversely, we have been asked more times than I can count for authentication from JSA, SGC or PSA, so those are the ones we use.
I'm sorry for the long winded response, but James, your assumptions about our integrity really got under my skin.
Josh Wulkan
Vice President
Huggins and Scott Auctions

So he won't tell you why it's bad either? He also avoided your questions about PSA rejecting it as well? Nothing to see here folks...the emperor has no clothes.

[cubsfan-budman]

I don't see what the issue is at this point.

Travis made a fool of Chris Williams and the rest of the doubters.

Both the consignor and Huggins & Scott have gone above and beyond to answer questions and work to address any authenticity concerns, including getting second opinions and speaking directly with Chris Williams.

I'd love to see definitive evidence that the signature is bad, but it seems clear that none is forthcoming.

It seems to me that Chris Williams and is the one that feels that he owes nothing to the hobby, as he apparently feels that protecting the buyer from this "forgery" is not something he's willing to do.

H&S has done plenty in this case.

[David Atkatz]

Originally Posted by cubsfan-budman

I'd love to see definitive evidence that the signature is bad, but it seems clear that none is forthcoming.

For the simple reason that none exists.

[cubsfan-budman]

Originally Posted by David Atkatz

For the simple reason that none exists.

I completely agree.

[David Atkatz]

And let's not forget Richard and his "tell."

(Which he conveniently won't tell anyone. Not H&S, not Jimmy Spence, not... )

[Frozen in Time]

Originally Posted by cubsfan-budman

I don't see what the issue is at this point.

Travis made a fool of Chris Williams and the rest of the doubters.

Both the consignor and Huggins & Scott have gone above and beyond to answer questions and work to address any authenticity concerns, including getting second opinions and speaking directly with Chris Williams.

I'd love to see definitive evidence that the signature is bad, but it seems clear that none is forthcoming.

It seems to me that Chris Williams and is the one that feels that he owes nothing to the hobby, as he apparently feels that protecting the buyer from this "forgery" is not something he's willing to do.

H&S has done plenty in this case.

+1 If the consignor's story is true (and his prompt responses to all questions in this thread lead me to believe it is) then I guess the only definitive proof that the auto is a fake would be if someone could produce an image of this exact ticket stub unsigned from an earlier auction or similar transaction.

[shelly]

Travis made fools of the people that believe it is not authentic. How did he do that by showing autographs side by side. Then stating and opinion. Like I said at the start. You either believe its authentic or not. No one on this site is a fool. The might be overly zealous but not fools.

[cubsfan-budman]

Originally Posted by shelly

Travis made fools of the people that believe it is not authentic. How did he do that by showing autographs side by side. Then stating and opinion. Like I said at the start. You either believe its authentic or not. No one on this site is a fool. The might be overly zealous but not fools.

Because the "evidence" that was supposed to be used to prove the ticket to be inauthentic was shown by Travis to be horsecrap and not related at all to the autograph on the ticket.

Its not an opinion to say that there are numerous differences between the ticket auto and the auto that was supposedly created by the same forger.

[shelly]

I know of very few people that even mentioned the second picture if any. I was only talking about the first Ruth on the ticket. Travis put the other one side by side. Does that make the people who might think the ticket is bad fools? Not only that if someone buys something and it is not authentic does that make them fools as well?

[David Atkatz]

Originally Posted by shelly

Not only that if someone buys something and it is not authentic does that make them fools as well?

Your buddy Chris seems to think so, and has stated just that sentiment here, and on YouTube, many, many times.

[cubsfan-budman]

Originally Posted by shelly

I know of very few people that even mentioned the second picture if any. I was only talking about the first Ruth on the ticket. Travis put the other one side by side. Does that make the people who might think the ticket is bad fools? Not only that if someone buys something and it is not authentic does that make them fools as well?

The "evidence" that Chris had was bogus in the context in which it was shown. Travis pointed that out.

I think there's a difference between being a fool and being made a fool of, personally.

[shelly]

I think that was a foolish question.

[David Atkatz]

Originally Posted by cubsfan-budman

When people bought fake stuff from you, did you think they were fools?

Excellent question!

[cubsfan-budman]

you're right. edited and sorry.

[David Atkatz]

Originally Posted by cubsfan-budman

I think there's a difference between being a fool and being made a fool of, personally.

There certainly is.

Although sometimes--and this thread and its OP come to mind--one can be both.

[Runscott]

This entire thread should be one of our autograph sub-forum 'exemplar threads'.

I am enjoying it, but it's definitely got all the characteristics that we are known for, plus some bonuses.

[rscheck]

[QUOTE=jgmp123;1115528].My concern is the person that is going to pay through the nose for an item that may or may not be real.
That is it.

Your concern? Your concern? My concern is that I have put up a ticket for sale that I have had in my possession for over twenty years and based for some unknown reason I see I don't like it cause the corners are to crisp or there's a forger in Michigan that does work like this. Where is the proof? Where is the evidence? let me state some facts.
1) I have owned this ticket for over 20 years. I DEFY you to send me a photo of it on some other auction sight.
2) This ticket was never graded, looked at or appraised by psa in person (they could have gotten sent a photo). Anything body claiming anything else is not telling the truth
3) Heritage offered to auction this item for me. I have an email from Ron dated 1/7/13 three days after I contacted him and sent him photos of the stub. They at no time had this ticket in their possession.
4) I went with H&S because after speaking with both Ron and Josh on the phone I felt much better about using H&S.
5) The ticket has been certified twice and the auto certified twice.
6) I have been totally forthright in answering EVERY question even going so far as to allow my phone number to be given to the guy that started this thread. BTW STILL waiting to hear from him
7) no one has offered ANY proof that the ticket and auto aren't what H&S and I state they are

[slidekellyslide]

[QUOTE=rscheck;1115665]

Originally Posted by jgmp123

.My concern is the person that is going to pay through the nose for an item that may or may not be real.
That is it.

Your concern? Your concern? My concern is that I have put up a ticket for sale that I have had in my possession for over twenty years and based for some unknown reason I see I don't like it cause the corners are to crisp or there's a forger in Michigan that does work like this. Where is the proof? Where is the evidence? let me state some facts.
1) I have owned this ticket for over 20 years. I DEFY you to send me a photo of it on some other auction sight.
2) This ticket was never graded, looked at or appraised by psa in person (they could have gotten sent a photo). Anything body claiming anything else is not telling the truth
3) Heritage offered to auction this item for me. I have an email from Ron dated 1/7/13 three days after I contacted him and sent him photos of the stub. They at no time had this ticket in their possession.
4) I went with H&S because after speaking with both Ron and Josh on the phone I felt much better about using H&S.
5) The ticket has been certified twice and the auto certified twice.
6) I have been totally forthright in answering EVERY question even going so far as to allow my phone number to be given to the guy that started this thread. BTW STILL waiting to hear from him
7) no one has offered ANY proof that the ticket and auto aren't what H&S and I state they are

And the shameful part is that it might go for less money than it could have because of this thread...a thread I might add that was started by someone who won't call you, won't give H&S the reasons he believes it to be bad...looks nothing like the autograph that he states comes from the "Michigan Forger" and like Elvis has left the building.

[Frozen in Time]

[QUOTE=rscheck;1115665]

Originally Posted by jgmp123

.My concern is the person that is going to pay through the nose for an item that may or may not be real.
That is it.

Your concern? Your concern? My concern is that I have put up a ticket for sale that I have had in my possession for over twenty years and based for some unknown reason I see I don't like it cause the corners are to crisp or there's a forger in Michigan that does work like this. Where is the proof? Where is the evidence? let me state some facts.
1) I have owned this ticket for over 20 years. I DEFY you to send me a photo of it on some other auction sight.
2) This ticket was never graded, looked at or appraised by psa in person (they could have gotten sent a photo). Anything body claiming anything else is not telling the truth
3) Heritage offered to auction this item for me. I have an email from Ron dated 1/7/13 three days after I contacted him and sent him photos of the stub. They at no time had this ticket in their possession.
4) I went with H&S because after speaking with both Ron and Josh on the phone I felt much better about using H&S.
5) The ticket has been certified twice and the auto certified twice.
6) I have been totally forthright in answering EVERY question even going so far as to allow my phone number to be given to the guy that started this thread. BTW STILL waiting to hear from him
7) no one has offered ANY proof that the ticket and auto aren't what H&S and I state they are

+1,000

[Big Dave]

Apparently Chris has tucked his tail between his legs and went into hiding on this one. What a clusterf*** he made out of this, and as for credibility, he has lost a lot recently with his posts.

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by shelly

I know of very few people that even mentioned the second picture if any. I was only talking about the first Ruth on the ticket. Travis put the other one side by side. Does that make the people who might think the ticket is bad fools? Not only that if someone buys something and it is not authentic does that make them fools as well?

if someone thinks the autograph on the ticket is good or bad, thats their opinion.

chris mentioned the second picture, thats the point, where the heck is he?

[David Atkatz]

He's out doin' his legwork.

[cardinalcollector]

You know, personally I am glad to see an AH come on here to defend themselves. Most of the times they don't, they probably think they have nothing to gain, and are probably right about that. Whatever they respond with, they usually get hit with more questions, technicalities, and complaints from a transaction gone bad with an individual 10 years ago.

Kit Young came on here to clarify some question years ago and was torched by a guy who had a bad transaction with him 20 years ago! Haven't heard from him since.

Troy from SACO was pounded mercilessly by folks when auctioning his CDV recently. He went WAY above and beyond in my opinion to answer questions, and for some, it just wasn't good enough.

I have never dealt with H&S, but everything I've heard about them has been positive.

It seems that emotions run so high that common sense and civility go out the window.

Now if the AH is screwing people and you can prove it (Mastro) go get 'em, just be able to prove it. I think a lot more AHs would post here if they didn't fear exactly what is happening to H&S here.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by cardinalcollector

Troy from SACO was pounded mercilessly by folks when auctioning his CDV recently. He went WAY above and beyond in my opinion to answer questions, and for some, it just wasn't good enough.

I applaud Troy for coming here and talking, but "it just wasn't good enough" ?!?

Troy did things his way, answered the questions he wanted to, and tried to play the victim when he was asked legitimate questions that exposed his lack of knowledge.

You might not realize this, but there were at least six board members participating in that SACO thread that each possessed at least ten times the knowledge of Troy regarding the mounted albumen photographs that he was trying to sell. Thus the questions that pained so many of you.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by cardinalcollector

You know, personally I am glad to see an AH come on here to defend themselves. Most of the times they don't, they probably think they have nothing to gain, and are probably right about that. Whatever they respond with, they usually get hit with more questions, technicalities, and complaints from a transaction gone bad with an individual 10 years ago.

........

I have never dealt with H&S, but everything I've heard about them has been positive.

It seems that emotions run so high that common sense and civility go out the window.

Now if the AH is screwing people and you can prove it (Mastro) go get 'em, just be able to prove it. I think a lot more AHs would post here if they didn't fear exactly what is happening to H&S here.

I agree with everything else you stated - well done, and I hope you understand that I wasn't attacking you for your opinion regarding SACO. Mounted albumens are something that I have expertise in. Many of the people reading that thread have little or no expertise in that area, and as a result, couldn't understand why we asked the questions we did. I completely get their attitude.

[yanks12025]

I just want to add one small thing about the seller has owned it for 20 years. It may seem like a long time ago but considering fakes have been around for many years, 20 years really isn't far.

Weren't most of the operation bullpen and other stuff in the early 90's. I have no idea whether its real or fake, just saying 20 years aint long.

[CW]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

And the shameful part is that it might go for less money than it could have because of this thread...

I was giving this some thought as I was reading the thread, and it's entirely possible that this thread may actually help the final price (especially now considering how this thread has unfolded). It has definitely gotten some exposure, and the authenticity of the piece, while called into question, has only been solidified by the evidence presented here.

It will be interesting to see where this ends up.

[Runscott]

We're a community of collectors talking about autographs - we come here to hear each others opinions, so if one of us is a potential bidder, there's no foul regardless of what's said.

If a potential bidder thinks there's something fishy about the autograph and googles 'Babe Ruth' + 'ticket' and locates this thread, there are far more people saying it's real (or discrediting Chris) than otherwise, plus the consignor and H&S are chiming in with good rebuttals. That can only help the price.

On the other hand, if Chris presents some solid evidence that proves it to be a fake, I'm sure H&S will pull it, so again - no foul.

[mschwade]

$7k with 27+ hours to go! Congratulations rsheck! Not bad for a gift from a stranger you didn't know!

[David Atkatz]

Originally Posted by yanks12025

I just want to add one small thing about the seller has owned it for 20 years. It may seem like a long time ago but considering fakes have been around for many years, 20 years really isn't far.

Weren't most of the operation bullpen and other stuff in the early 90's. I have no idea whether its real or fake, just saying 20 years aint long.

Twenty years is a long time, Brock, if the "Missouri forger," the alleged signer of this piece, wasn't working then. Do you know if he was?

I thought not.

Here's a tip: If you're going to open an item up to doubt, have some solid info to present. Don't take a leaf from Chris' book.

[yanks12025]

Originally Posted by David Atkatz

Twenty years is a long time, Brock, if the "Missouri forger," the alleged signer of this piece, wasn't working then. Do you know if he was?

I thought not.

Here's a tip: If you're going to open an item up to doubt, have some solid info to present. Don't take a leaf from Chris' book.

Heres a tip for you, actually read what i write considering I never said anything about the forger and how long he's been around. I simply stated when talking about a item being 70+ years old and only owning it for 20 years ain't much. So if I buy a item, I could tell people it has great provenience because I've owned it for X amount of years.

And like I posted I said I don't know whether its real or fake.

[David Atkatz]

Originally Posted by yanks12025

Heres a tip for you, actually read what i write considering I never said anything about the forger and how long he's been around.

Yeah. That's the whole point.

[Scott Garner]

Originally Posted by Frozen in Time

+1 If the consignor's story is true (and his prompt responses to all questions in this thread lead me to believe it is) then I guess the only definitive proof that the auto is a fake would be if someone could produce an image of this exact ticket stub unsigned from an earlier auction or similar transaction.

+1

[Big Dave]

Ends today....

http://hugginsandscott.com/cgi-bin/s...l?itemid=55190