Mastro and Allen Indicted

Originally Posted by RUSH2112

If my statements have harmed Jon Corizines reputation then please, by all means, remove my post. Should his lawyer call, feel free to give him or her my full name and phone number, which you already have in your database.

Thats not the point. The point is it's the rules and this isn't the first thread you have made comments in that should have required your name. I really don't have any say in this but you should respect the rules like everyone else.

[T206DK]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Whether it does or not PSA has a public relations issue on their hands. They can keep talk off the CU board, but that won't be enough, especially with the National coming up, etc.

this story will be the talk of the National !

[T206DK]

Originally Posted by calvindog

I think you forget you're talking about Joe Orlando. He'd rather eat thumbtacks than tell the truth publicly about that card. In a grand jury under oath? Different story.

Doesn't Orlando have a law degree ?

[T206DK]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Just because he doesn't have first-hand knowledge of what happened with the card doesn't mean he's unaware of what occurred. It would be nice for PSA to tell the truth about it publicly. Eventually it will come out and eventually the present owner might want compensation.

Jeff, do you think any of the prior owners have legal recourse ?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by T206DK

Doesn't Orlando have a law degree ?

yes

[FrankWakefield]

RUSH2112 should have his name disclosed with his posts, Andrew is correct.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by FrankWakefield

RUSH2112 should have his name disclosed with his posts, Andrew is correct.

He does now.

[FrankWakefield]

Thank you, Sir.

[wonkaticket]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

You can't have the most famous and most valuable card in the hobby remain a sham. It's not an 8 and never was. It's time for it to be reholdered.

It's very possible the current owner would refuse to do it, as is his prerogative. Or maybe he bought it because he wanted to own the best baseball card in existence, and now he will realize it isn't. So PSA or the seller or the previous owner has to compensate him big time, and then he can have it reholdered. It's still a gorgeous card and would sell for a whole lot of money. But not for millions, and not as a NR MT/MT.

If the hobby is to be purged of all this garbage, that card has to be a part of it.

+1

I’ve always said I find it sad and funny that the cornerstone of our hobby and the grading phenomenon is a well-known altered card.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

You can't have the most famous and most valuable card in the hobby remain a sham. It's not an 8 and never was. It's time for it to be reholdered.

It's very possible the current owner would refuse to do it, as is his prerogative. Or maybe he bought it because he wanted to own the best baseball card in existence, and now he will realize it isn't. So PSA or the seller or the previous owner has to compensate him big time, and then he can have it reholdered. It's still a gorgeous card and would sell for a whole lot of money. But not for millions, and not as a NR MT/MT.

If the hobby is to be purged of all this garbage, that card has to be a part of it.

Well-said. Looking forward to seeing what comes out of this - how it affects the card's icon status, price, the hobby, etc.

[brookdodger55]

Maybe Calvindog Can answer this or anyone else with legal experience ?

If an item was put into Mastro's auction and illegal activity took place with inflated prices. Can the seller of the item who recieved an inflated price (Possibly
illegally) be subjected to a clawback of illegal profits that were realized. (Can what happened in the Bernie Madoff case happen in this case with illegal profits). Any info greatly appecieated.

[calvindog]

http://www.suntimes.com/news/metro/1...raud-case.html

Allen’s attorney, Michael J. Petro said his client is “absolutely” planning to fight the charges — and pointed the finger at Mastro.

“Bill Mastro is the Mastromind,” Petro said.


LOLOLOL

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by calvindog

http://www.suntimes.com/news/metro/1...raud-case.html

Allen’s attorney, Michael J. Petro said his client is “absolutely” planning to fight the charges — and pointed the finger at Mastro.

“Bill Mastro is the Mastromind,” Petro said.


LOLOLOL

That throws an Allen wrench into everything

[Anthony S.]

Originally Posted by calvindog

http://www.suntimes.com/news/metro/1...raud-case.html

Allen’s attorney, Michael J. Petro said his client is “absolutely” planning to fight the charges — and pointed the finger at Mastro.

“Bill Mastro is the Mastromind,” Petro said.


LOLOLOL

Mastro must be petro-fied.

[egbeachley]

Originally Posted by brookdodger55

If an item was put into Mastro's auction and illegal activity took place with inflated prices. Can the seller of the item who recieved an inflated price (Possibly illegally) be subjected to a clawback of illegal profits that were realized. (Can what happened in the Bernie Madoff case happen in this case with illegal profits). Any info greatly appecieated.

I think that's a definite "yes". But it may be hard to collect the alleged overpayment. If an item was inflated by 20%, say from $100K to $120K, then the auction house roughly collected an extra $3K in fees. The consignor received the rest. The extra $3K in fees are likely gone now (salaries, rent, profit, etc.) except to the extent that the guilty persons are held personally liable. But if they got rich over the business, they got rich over the fees, not the overpayment. So the consignor has the rest, $17K in this example, and good luck going back to him.

[calvindog]

I don't imagine the government will be looking to 'clawback' any ill-gotten gains unless the consignors were in on the fraud.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by calvindog

http://www.suntimes.com/news/metro/1...raud-case.html

Allen’s attorney, Michael J. Petro said his client is “absolutely” planning to fight the charges — and pointed the finger at Mastro.

“Bill Mastro is the Mastromind,” Petro said.


LOLOLOL

When this is all over, Bill and Doug will be shills of their former selves.

[calvindog]

You never provided the punchline to your last joke last night. Is that nice? You've kept me in suspense for hours.

[base_ball]

I just dug this up. Yes, it's a lousy Photoshop job, but it wasn't for that reason that I got in trouble for posting it on this board shortly after the publication of "The Card." Well, it looks like we can now all agree that O.J. did it.

[calvindog]

Hey, that's pretty good.

[Matthew H]

It's nice to see that Bill and Doug have been able to remain such good friends through all this.

[sporteq]

I open the bid at: $5.00 on this rarity


AL

Originally Posted by base_ball

I just dug this up. Yes, it's a lousy Photoshop job, but it wasn't for that reason that I got in trouble for posting it on this board shortly after the publication of "The Card." Well, it looks like we can now all agree that O.J. did it.

[Anthony S.]

Originally Posted by base_ball

I just dug this up. Yes, it's a lousy Photoshop job, but it wasn't for that reason that I got in trouble for posting it on this board shortly after the publication of "The Card." Well, it looks like we can now all agree that O.J. did it.

That's great. Gotta say, the level of schadenfreude I'm feeling right now is obscene. Honesty ain't that tough.

[travrosty]

if the card is trimmed, and people don't care, and it doesnt take a hit in value like mr. anonymous said, and actually gains in value, just try trimming it a little more and see if you can get an 8.5 out of it.

[irishdenny]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

You can't have the most famous and most valuable card in the hobby remain a sham. It's not an 8 and never was. It's time for it to be reholdered.

It's very possible the current owner would refuse to do it, as is his prerogative. Or maybe he bought it because he wanted to own the best baseball card in existence, and now he will realize it isn't. So PSA or the seller or the previous owner has to compensate him big time, and then he can have it reholdered. It's still a gorgeous card and would sell for a whole lot of money. But not for millions, and not as a NR MT/MT.

If the hobby is to be purged of all this garbage, that card has to be a part of it.

I have to say that this quote brought me to a cheering, applauding roar! I felt like I was in the thick of one of Mcgreevy's Spirited Speeches. Standing in the middle of Boston's 3rd Base pub with a pint in hand as Barry... Ahhmm, I mean McGreevy, sprayed the best ale all over anyone in his speaking path as he carried out this victorious volley of wisdom.

Nuf Ced...

[calvindog]

More investigations and arrests will clean the hobby up, unfortunately. Too much money to be made by fraud; the criminals need to believe there is a good chance they'll get caught and punished. End of story.

[Wymers Auction]

Originally Posted by calvindog

More investigations and arrests will clean the hobby up, unfortunately. Too much money to be made by fraud; the criminals need to believe there is a good chance they'll get caught and punished. End of story.

Now if they would go after Coaches Corner.

[T206DK]

Originally Posted by Wymers Auction

Now if they would go after Coaches Corner.

I am betting this is not the only high profile set of indictments that we will hear about. back in 2007-8 is the first I heard of this investigation. This may just be the tip of the iceberg so to speak.

[travrosty]

probably right, when they agree to cooperate, like mastro did, they are required to tell ALL about what they know about illegal activity 100%, no holding back. and the feds are serious about it. wayne bray had to spill the beans about everything he knew, and they made him aware that they werent going to tolerate him holding back. I am sure mastro was a wealth of information.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by travrosty

probably right, when they agree to cooperate, like mastro did, they are required to tell ALL about what they know about illegal activity 100%, no holding back. and the feds are serious about it. wayne bray had to spill the beans about everything he knew, and they made him aware that they werent going to tolerate him holding back. I am sure mastro was a wealth of information.

How are they going to "require" someone to tell all? Maybe water boarding?How are they going to know if there is a shred of info not being told? My guess is the Feds base their decisions on what info is gained, not what is not gained. My understanding is that there are quite a few ex-employees that have given information. I think that is where a lot of it comes from....oh, and the subpoena's handed out....those probably rake in bit of info too. And the authorities probably talk to a lot of people in the hobby who aren't right in the middle of the issues. But these are all just educated guesses and maybe a tiny bit of first hand knowledge. As I told a good friend a few days ago, if I know something bad in the hobby, I have no issue sharing that with the proper authorities. I truly want this to be as clean of a hobby as is possible. I hope all of my friends feel the same way.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I think all Travis means is that if the Feds believe Bill isn't fully cooperating, they may not be lenient with him, and that would incentivize him not to hold back.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I think all Travis means is that if the Feds believe Bill isn't fully cooperating, they may not be lenient with him, and that would incentivize him not to hold back.

I can agree with that of course.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I think all Travis means is that if the Feds believe Bill isn't fully cooperating, they may not be lenient with him, and that would incentivize him not to hold back.

Cooperators are required to discuss ALL of their criminal activities, not just what reates to the case at hand. The government may want to make new cases with that info. Plus, a defense lawyer for a client who knows Bill so well most likely knows about a lot of this unrelated criminal activity and will surely cross examine Bill on it during the case. If Bill holds back his cooperation deal could be ripped up and he'd spend a longer time in jail before being released and going back to washing the lepers' feet. Bottom line: the Feds don't need Bill's cooperation to convict Doug so if Bill has an ounce of a brain left in his sainted head he'd best come clean.

Which means: whoever else conspired with Bill on a crime which was either Mastro Auctions-related or not should be very nervous right now.

[Misunderestimated]

From what I can tell these guys hired fairly big name, and therefore expensive, criminal defense lawyers out here.

Unless they have prior criminal records I would ultimately expect assorted plea agreements that might bring others down and would lead to penalties -- fines and perhaps agreements barring them re-entering the sports memorabilia business for a while or life -- but no real prison time.
What may be brought to light along the way could of course expose them to civil liability if the harmed individuals want to pursue it and that's way the plea agreements are a rather tricky test for the charged parties and their lawyers.

This will become yet another part of the saga of the card, Wagner T206, in general. The specific "altered" card will no longer universally acclaimed as the "best one" -- it will remain the most famous specimen.

T206 Wagners generally will continue to be the "most famous, most valuable, and rarest baseball card" (yes I know its not the rarest by a long shot and that a certain low end Wagner is not more valuable that the highest end of specimen of some other cards but that's the narrative to the outside world)

[calvindog]

I disagree with nearly all of that.

[Misunderestimated]

Originally Posted by calvindog

I disagree with nearly all of that.

That's fine.

[T206DK]

Originally Posted by Misunderestimated

From what I can tell these guys hired fairly big name, and therefore expensive, criminal defense lawyers out here.

Unless they have prior criminal records I would ultimately expect assorted plea agreements that might bring others down and would lead to penalties -- fines and perhaps agreements barring them re-entering the sports memorabilia business for a while or life -- but no real prison time.
What may be brought to light along the way could of course expose them to civil liability if the harmed individuals want to pursue it and that's way the plea agreements are a rather tricky test for the charged parties and their lawyers.

This will become yet another part of the saga of the card, Wagner T206, in general. The specific "altered" card will no longer universally acclaimed as the "best one" -- it will remain the most famous specimen.

T206 Wagners generally will continue to be the "most famous, most valuable, and rarest baseball card" (yes I know its not the rarest by a long shot and that a certain low end Wagner is not more valuable that the highest end of specimen of some other cards but that's the narrative to the outside world)

someone will be doing some time in prison for this.....how long, remains to be seen. High priced lawyer or not. Tip of the iceberg most likley

[WhenItWasAHobby]

I was once told by a Federal law enforcement agent that they only indict people when its pretty much a slam dunk of getting a conviction. Of course the Clemens trial proved that wrong, but that could be explained away by relying on Andy Pettite, graduate of advanced studies from the Frank Pentangeli School of Witness Testimony. See training video below:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90XT5GWlKaE

[bbcard1]

Had it been established who the cutter was?

[calvindog]

I think the idea of a "slam dunk case" is very different from a defense lawyer's perspective.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by Anthony S.

That's great. Gotta say, the level of schadenfreude I'm feeling right now is obscene. Honesty ain't that tough.

+1

[E93]

Originally Posted by calvindog

I think the idea of a "slam dunk case" is very different from a defense lawyer's perspective.

Can we bring you in as an expert witness on this point?
JimB

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by calvindog

I think the idea of a "slam dunk case" is very different from a defense lawyer's perspective.

Very true.

[Boomer]

All three will walk

[calvindog]

Walk where? And one of the 'three' appears to be cooperating with the feds as hinted by his lawyer.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Walk where?

No where in particular. Just a morning stroll.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Walk where? And one of the 'three' appears to be cooperating with the feds as hinted by his lawyer.

If you had your way, they would be walking the plank.

[calvindog]

Well, they ARE great guys.

[T206DK]

Originally Posted by Boomer

All three will walk

the "perp" walk

[drc]

Just brings to mind the Malcolm in the Middle perp walk scene. The father (Bryan Cranston) was arrested at his home, but it was a minor crime so the cops did the perp walk on his front lawn.