Fake Signed T206 Cards (Too Many to List in the Title, See First Post for List)

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Anyone else thinking "odds are it's a member, and now we've warned him?"

[Big Six]

So these are on eBay right now...feels like there should be a moratorium on selling these until dust settles. Just my $.02.









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[RichardSimon]

A very good hobby friend has said this to me via an email:

"Rich, there was a lot more than one forger and has been going on for a long time, they have been doing tons of Goudey cards too. Ever since signed cards got hot they switched gears from single-signed balls to cards because they were easier and cheaper, I used to get at least a few emails a week for opinions on signed cards and I always said the same. Rarely did collectors get them signed and too easy for forgers to make a quick buck by turning a beat-up $5.00 card into 10k or more and they could do 20 of them and if only one passed tpa they made bank."

[Peter_Spaeth]

We didn't learn much from Operation Bullpen, did we? Over and over, people are going to fall for fraud because wishful thinking trumps common sense.

[RichardSimon]

A friend of mine has speculated that the forger is a member of 54. He has no evidence and said he did not have someone in mind, just a random thought. If so I would think he has a one-way ticket to a country without an extradition treaty by now . If the FBI does truly get involved this seems like it will wind up as an open and shut case, with a lengthy prison sentence at the end of that tunnel, not to mention high legal fees. I would also think asset seizure to make restitution.

[Laxcat]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

A friend of mine has speculated that the forger is a member of 54. He has no evidence and said he did not have someone in mind, just a random thought. If so I would think he has a one-way ticket to a country without an extradition treaty by now . If the FBI does truly get involved this seems like it will wind up as an open and shut case, with a lengthy prison sentence at the end of that tunnel, not to mention high legal fees.

Let us all hope he is wrong. And if not, may god have mercy on this forger’s soul because no one here will.

[Duluth Eskimo]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

A friend of mine has speculated that the forger is a member of 54. He has no evidence and said he did not have someone in mind, just a random thought. If so I would think he has a one-way ticket to a country without an extradition treaty by now . If the FBI does truly get involved this seems like it will wind up as an open and shut case, with a lengthy prison sentence at the end of that tunnel, not to mention high legal fees. I would also think asset seizure to make restitution.

Pie in the sky thoughts. I have said this at least a half dozen times, it’s not law enforcement who charges cases, it’s district attorneys and US attorneys. If these attorneys could care less about negotiating light sentances for violent crime do you really think they’re going to care about a baseball card autograph forgery case. For everyone who continues to make these comments, please wake up and smell the coffee.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

We didn't learn much from Operation Bullpen, did we? Over and over, people are going to fall for fraud because wishful thinking trumps common sense.

That is why pyramid schemes have been so successful.
Some pyramid schemes have reaped billions for the founders.

[Chris Counts]

"... they have been doing tons of Goudey cards too ..."

A ton of signed Goudeys were recently auctioned off by REA, and it's amazing how many sold for between $5,000 and $10,000 each. Not just stars, but average players with tough autographs. I'll bet some of those buyers are nervously watching this thread.

[Exhibitman]

The culprits need to be outed. When they are outed and we know who they are they will lose their ability to deal with us and anyone else who finds the post. If it saves even one collector from being cheated it is worthwhile.

[biggsdaddycool]

I will be curious as to when we see the first cards that are not T206 hit the post with confirmed before and after. There is no way the scope of this is as limited as T206’s.

Something tells me this is going to just explode in the next several days.

Not that it hasn’t in the last several!

Thanks to everyone involved.


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[Big Six]

So the other thing that crossed my mind is what is going to be done with these known fraudulent signed T206s. I look at those and they are worthless and think I’d want the card shredded to get it out of the hobby once and for all. I also realize I didn’t drop thousands of dollars on these cards so that’s a lot easier for me to say than for someone who did to do. Thoughts? I still think these cards should be destroyed fwiw.


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[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Big Six

So the other thing that crossed my mind is what is going to be done with these known fraudulent signed T206s. I look at those and they are worthless and think I’d want the card shredded to get it out of the hobby once and for all. I also realize I didn’t drop thousands of dollars on these cards so that’s a lot easier for me to say than for someone who did to do. Thoughts? I still think these cards should be destroyed fwiw.


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I would think for now they have to be retained as possible evidence.

[biggsdaddycool]

I think one of the biggest revelations I have had from this whole nasty, grimey situation is how little effort the TPG’s and TPA’s put into documenting the items that pass through their hands.

I am a collector at heart. As a collector at heart, I am, also, and accumulator. And as such, if I were running a multimillion dollar TPG/TPA I would certainly have accumulated a database of every single item that has passed through the hands of my people.

Every item would have been scanned front and back and been assigned a number to which every item could be referenced at any given time.

Could you imagine if in the last 20 years of grading the database that would have been accumulated? It would be so easy for fraud and forgeries to be ferreted out. Trimmings, alterations, etc would pop like color on a black canvas.

It seems to me such a wasted opportunity for those in control of TPG/TPA’s to have documented their entire history of submissions.

I can’t imagine how much easier it would be for law enforcement to know who and what was submitted at any given time.

And talk about provenance? Their information would be worth millions alone!

Crossovers would be able to be tracked and pop reports across the board would be so much more accurate.

As it stands now, if one wanted to dump the market on a certain grade card all they have to do is keep cracking the same cards and resubmitting them to artificially inflate the population, thus, essentially, destroying a market for any individual card.

It would have taken seconds per transaction to have scanned and documented every submission, now it’s just been a wast of nearly 20 years worth of data.

Oh the hobby...always so slow to embrace technology.


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[setwil]

Agree this is very sad to see fraud at such a scale.

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[painthistorian]

To answer a specific question that came up...the same buyer on e bay that has been pointed out by Pat R. to be the buyer of the Cicotte and the buyer that purchased the Baker I sold, changed his ID, early March 2015, I saw this change in the e bay history back screens. E bay does keep the accounts together but the letter*****letter coded sequence will be different but the feedback is the same..funny, his feedback just went up one which means there is still feedback being left although there are no longer current listings.

[Pat R]

The Marquard is actually a different ebay ID. I think the rest are all the
same buyer but I will have to go back and get the sales. I think it actually
might be unrelated to the rest of them.

These are the pre signed sales from the same buyer that I have at this time.

Baker Sale.jpg
Cicotte Sale.jpg
Flick Sale.jpg
Livingstone Sale.jpg
Parent Sale.jpg
Sullivan Sale.jpg

[irv]

Originally Posted by Pat R

The Marquard is actually a different ebay ID. I think the rest are all the
same buyer but I will have to go back and get the sales. I think it actually
might be unrelated to the rest of them.

These are the pre signed sales from the same buyer that I have at this time.

Attachment 336187
Attachment 336188
Attachment 336189
Attachment 336190
Attachment 336191
Attachment 336192

Sorry if this has been asked already, but is there anyway to tell if this buyer purchased different cards other than T206's?

[ashes13]

Where there is smoke there is fire. If it is this easy to get forged t206 autographs by all the supposed expert authenticators out there, it is likely going on with not just pre-war cards but also all cards and probably all memorabilia. Seems to be alot of hall of fame signed rookie cards being sold over the last few years, such as Mantles, Aarons, etc. They were never that popular but somehow they have become quite prevalent. Also, as alluded to earlier, seems like a lot more signed goudeys have been popping up. The whole "signed" card popularity seemed to have taken off a few years ago and it probably coincides with this perhaps "group" of forgers (perhaps it is one forger but wouldn't surprise me if multiple people are involved). They may even have been the driving force behind trying to pique interest in this niche area and grow its popularity. I just never recall seeing so many signed cards in the big auctions before nor were they very popular.

We are all collectors and this is never good to see. As purely a card collector, I never really got into autograph collecting and as a card purist always preferred cards without markings or autos, but I can see the allure to the autograph enthusiasts of signed classic hobby cards.

Seems like fake autographs have a long sordid history in this hobby.

But it is definitely reassuring that there are so many smart and amazing collectors out there and on these message boards that are able to "police" the hobby and expose these frauds.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by irv

Sorry if this has been asked already, but is there anyway to tell if this buyer purchased different cards other than T206's?

I haven't found where he has purchased any other pre-war cards
besides T206's.

[biggsdaddycool]

Here...we...go!

#HereComeTheGoudeys


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[Lordstan]

The person in Lewiston, Ill is Roger Till. He has been on ebay and amazon forever.
He has truckloads of bad stuff. On ebay he is vintagecollections1. He has also been olebbstuff.
A few years ago i bought some signed Sport Magazines off him. They were close, but not good under closer inspection. He refunded my money. Around the same time, another member here, Mike R, bought several signed mags from him including Maris, off Amazon. They were rejected when he asked Richard Simon to check them out. He was able to get his money back as well.

If you see someone selling autographs out of Lewiston, Ill, run very far very fast.

I am not saying he is the person behind the t206s, but there are multiple threads about him in Sportscollectors.net being a bad seller..

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[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by Lordstan

The person in Lewiston, Ill is Roger Till. He has been on ebay and amazon forever.
He has truckloads of bad stuff. On ebay he is vintagecollections1. He has also been olebbstuff.

Is that olebbstuff (13225) possibly f****f the guy is a known forger. Doubtful he'd be able to get his sub through a TPG, and probably has someone doing it for him.

[Lordstan]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

Is that olebbstuff possibly f****f , the guy is a known forger. Doubtful he'd be able to get his sub through a TPG, and probably has someone doing it for him.

No idea if he is f**f or not.
I bought magazines from him under a third ebay name that i dont recall, but i know olebbstuff and vintagecollections1 are the same people.

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[Republicaninmass]

There is still the n****e buyer as well

[atx840]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

There is still the n****e buyer as well

This seller (real name) is known and the one I believe authorities are looking into.

[painthistorian]

as Chris just stated, the seller of my T206 baker is known by the investigative authorities and they do not want this publicly stated as the investigation is on going and CURRENT. as far as e bay fraud dept, they are useless. There may be a network of these sellers so we have to hope they can get to the bottom of this quickly.

There probably are many "better" but far from perfect forgeries out there graded & not graded by TPG's...DO YOUR OWN COMPARISONS and research...I used to write to the HOF and send yellow plaques to the players, so many of them signed so it is pretty obvious that a Rube Marquard plaque signature that I got back from him looks different that those crappy T206's that passed, same with Bill Terry 1933 Goudey. As an educated forum, any collector should really study & LEARN THE SIGNATURES if you collect autographs. There are plenty good ones out there thru google search, if your gut tells you something does not look right, it probably isnt...but this investigation does show one thing TPG services are OPINIONS, hopefully they get more right than wrong but its up to a buyer to educate yourselves as to what you buy. "a leap of faith sometimes can get you banged up"

[ALBB]

that's an incredibly good and true point regarding testing age of pen ink...can NOT be done by somebody sitting and looking at a card for 2 minutes

[scooter729]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

Is that olebbstuff (13225) possibly f****f the guy is a known forger. Doubtful he'd be able to get his sub through a TPG, and probably has someone doing it for him.

If they randomly use two characters from the username to form the scrambled name, then "f***f" would fit since it has 2 f's. That format works, since I typically show as "t***2" in the scrambled format (my eBay name is same as my name here, with a t and a 2 in the name.

[bn2cardz]

Originally Posted by Lordstan

The person in Lewiston, Ill is Roger Till. He has been on ebay and amazon forever.
He has truckloads of bad stuff. On ebay he is vintagecollections1. He has also been olebbstuff.
A few years ago i bought some signed Sport Magazines off him. They were close, but not good under closer inspection. He refunded my money. Around the same time, another member here, Mike R, bought several signed mags from him including Maris, off Amazon. They were rejected when he asked Richard Simon to check them out. He was able to get his money back as well.

If you see someone selling autographs out of Lewiston, Ill, run very far very fast.

I am not saying he is the person behind the t206s, but there are multiple threads about him in Sportscollectors.net being a bad seller..

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Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

Is that olebbstuff (13225) possibly f****f the guy is a known forger. Doubtful he'd be able to get his sub through a TPG, and probably has someone doing it for him.

F****F had more than 10k feedback and bought that original card from teri781. olebbstuff ( 13226) has several feedbacks from teri787.

[smokelessjoe]

Not sure if this helps, but Carlton has several photos from his booth in 2013??

http://www.sportsantiques.com/2013natstory6.htm

[bn2cardz]

Originally Posted by bn2cardz

F****F had more than 10k feedback and bought that original card from teri781. olebbstuff ( 13226) has several feedbacks from teri787.

Thinking about this more and we don't know absolutely that olebbstuff is the Marquard scammer, but the fact that olebbstuff is already associated with a forger and he has been allowed to continue is very worrisome. Then to top it off that it there is a high likely hood that he is associated with the signed t206 that started all of this is just horrible.

I am in disbelief of our entire legal system when known scammers are allowed to continue to operate (including Coach's Corner). It isn't like there isn't enough proof to build a case.

[Exhibitman]

Don't be surprised; the rule in law enforcement seems to mirror the rule in local news: if it bleeds it leads. Of all the times I've tried to get prosecutors interested in blatant fraud or other white collar thievery I've only gotten one case off the ground. They prioritize violent crimes. White collar stuff, which often requires larger resources and substantial expertise to prove and often involves defendants with the resources to fight, is not as attractive to lower level prosecutors looking to feather their beds with high conviction rates and move up to elective office or a judgeship.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by Lordstan

The person in Lewiston, Ill is Roger Till. He has been on ebay and amazon forever.
He has truckloads of bad stuff. On ebay he is vintagecollections1. He has also been olebbstuff.
A few years ago i bought some signed Sport Magazines off him. They were close, but not good under closer inspection. He refunded my money. Around the same time, another member here, Mike R, bought several signed mags from him including Maris, off Amazon. They were rejected when he asked Richard Simon to check them out. He was able to get his money back as well.

If you see someone selling autographs out of Lewiston, Ill, run very far very fast.

I am not saying he is the person behind the t206s, but there are multiple threads about him in Sportscollectors.net being a bad seller..

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He goes way, way back.
Doing the same thing for many years.

[Lordstan]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

He goes way, way back.
Doing the same thing for many years.

On another forum, someone stated he still sets up at the National. How can we hope to stem the tide of this stuff if someone who has been doing this as long as him can still set up at nationals?

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by Lordstan

On another forum, someone stated he still sets up at the National. How can we hope to stem the tide of this stuff if someone who has been doing this as long as him can still set up at nationals?

In the past, when I was doing shows, he had been removed.

[Promethius88]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

?Roger Till" -- In the past, when I was doing shows, he had been removed.

I ran into him at the Chicago show in May or June. Didn't know who he was until he introduced himself while I was standing at HIS table. I knew who he was from years back as I am from central Illinois. I pretty much ended the conversation at that point and didn't tell him who I was. He did say he sets up at the National and also gave me a flyer for a show he puts on at the Mall in Peoria, IL. Yes, he for sure is still in business. There were rumors floating around that Till had some type of machine that could forge signatures that were nearly impossible to detect. Again, those were only rumors and not sure if such a thing even exists.

[buymycards]

Originally Posted by Lordstan

On another forum, someone stated he still sets up at the National. How can we hope to stem the tide of this stuff if someone who has been doing this as long as him can still set up at nationals?

The people who run the national don't care. 3-4 years ago I had an issue with one of the sellers at the national. I contacted the people who run the national, by email, about the crooked seller, but I never received a response.

[mr2686]

Originally Posted by Lordstan

The person in Lewiston, Ill is Roger Till. He has been on ebay and amazon forever.
He has truckloads of bad stuff. On ebay he is vintagecollections1. He has also been olebbstuff.
A few years ago i bought some signed Sport Magazines off him. They were close, but not good under closer inspection. He refunded my money. Around the same time, another member here, Mike R, bought several signed mags from him including Maris, off Amazon. They were rejected when he asked Richard Simon to check them out. He was able to get his money back as well.

If you see someone selling autographs out of Lewiston, Ill, run very far very fast.

I am not saying he is the person behind the t206s, but there are multiple threads about him in Sportscollectors.net being a bad seller..

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Gee Mark, thanks for reminding me...LOL. Yeah, I'll plead guilty to getting a little caught up in trying to fill a hole in my collection. I bought 3 magazines from that guy. The photos on the site were a bit small and I had to magnify them to get an idea if I should buy them or not. As Mark said, they were close enough that it was worth buying them and sending them off...but they were not good. Cost me the authentication cost and shipping, but I got my original money back from the seller...and received a refresher course in something I already knew, which is don't let your excitement for finding something cloud your judgement. Now, if the seller is from Lewiston, I don't even bother looking.

[Lordstan]

Sorry Mike for bringing up bad memories.

[mr2686]

Originally Posted by Lordstan

Sorry Mike for bringing up bad memories.

...but not sorry enough to sell me your Stengel or Alston Sport magazines, right? LOL

[painthistorian]

Here is how you "stem the tide" DONT BUY FROM HIM, EDUCATE YOURSELF & AS MANY COLLECTORS YOU CAN, and especially at a show in person...report him to the organizers as long as you have exemplar proof, squeaky wheels get heard. DO RESEARCH, get educated!!!!!

[Lordstan]

Originally Posted by mr2686

...but not sorry enough to sell me your Stengel or Alston Sport magazines, right? LOL

nope.

[savedfrommyspokes]

Originally Posted by Lordstan

The person in Lewiston, Ill is Roger Till. He has been on ebay and amazon forever.
He has truckloads of bad stuff. On ebay he is vintagecollections1. He has also been olebbstuff.
A few years ago i bought some signed Sport Magazines off him. They were close, but not good under closer inspection. He refunded my money. Around the same time, another member here, Mike R, bought several signed mags from him including Maris, off Amazon. They were rejected when he asked Richard Simon to check them out. He was able to get his money back as well.

If you see someone selling autographs out of Lewiston, Ill, run very far very fast.

I am not saying he is the person behind the t206s, but there are multiple threads about him in Sportscollectors.net being a bad seller..

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Has also used ebay ID "Prettything18"

[jchcollins]

Wow, so since I last looked at this thread yesterday we've apparently added forged Goudey's to the list. I must admit as much as this sucks it does make for some incredibly interesting reading...

[Lordstan]

Ha. Just as i finished typing, i went to eBay and surprise surprise, the seller of the Ferrell was vintagecollections1.

He is obviously reading this thread.

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[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by Lordstan

Ha. Just as i finished typing, i went to eBay and surprise surprise, the seller of the Ferrell was vintagecollections1.

He is obviously reading this thread.

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Lots of sketchy Ohio type stuff in his listings.

[painthistorian]

I guess many are good forgeries but side by side, look at Rube Marquard vs. t206 Marquard that actually wraps at a right angle, that one was NOT GOOD even by my untrained eye.

My whole purpose is that everyone that spends real money on autographs should do their own research prior to purchasing such an expensive item, most baseball HOFers have exemplars on items that are available for comparison with a computer...

as for TPG services, we do need referees/experts etc but its time they take some responsibility, example: The Rocky Marciano signed docmentation/letters, many with a particular TPG certification, well those letters are on a stationery of a "magazine" that has no history of existence anywhere that I can locate and I have been in hobby since 1975. Where are those now?, they are still out there and were not bought back even after there was a large discussion about these!

[Republicaninmass]

Agreed that firat Marquard did not sit right with me. The sgc and psa slabbed ones look much better. I'm still an amateur at dicerning, but getting better

[HOF Auto Rookies]

I haven't been on the forums much lately, but Paul mentioned it to me. Haven't read this thread yet.

I've spent well over six figures on signed cards lately (T206's, Goudeys) and I'm just incredibly f'ing sad. I know I have fakes, I'm scared to find out which ones.

It comes with the territory.

I honestly feel bad for the forger(s). To have to do this is just...I can't think of the right words