91 Topps Variations

[steve B]

Originally Posted by mouschi

Riddle me this:
Regarding the glow light test. Based upon this pic:



would you say there are 4 glow back variations?

Also, for you 1991 topps variation collectors - do you all consider the pink # variation a true collectible variation?



Also, does anyone out there have either of the 2 cansecos (regular and all star versions) that don't glow ... or glow and have the lighter cardboard background?

I suppose you could call that four different. I count the dark logo sort of as a set of its own.
I can't really tell if you've spotted the other back that reacts to UV. The ones I have are
Totally non-reactive both cardstock and ink.
Ink does not react cardboard reacts slightly white.
Ink reacts bright orange cardboard does not.
Ink reacts bright orange cardboard reacts slightly white.
Ink reacts a very dark red cardboard does not react.

The brightness of the reaction may be a bit variable. It gets hard to tell unless you're using enough UV to rule out variable distance and angle from the light source.

The reactive cardboard is also tricky as certain things can make it do that. Some stains, and fiber transfer from a reactive white paper like some envelopes or printer paper. I believe it's for real as I've picked up a handful from different sources, but at least one of those had water damage that wasn't easily visible.

And if you are please take precautions. Overexposure to UV can make some people temporaily ill - nausea etc, And UV is also bad for the skin and eyes. So depending on the power and wavelength maybe even gloves and a pair of the special "sunglasses" they use in some labs. (UV at a cartain wavelength and power is used to sterilize some things)

I also think the pink numbers are a real variety rather than an overinking or dry plate like the 61s

Steve B

[benlee66]

Here are some scans of the wrong-backs I mentioned. Wrong-background is a better term. I've heard them mentioned before, but seen no examples except the one on ebay (Mike Morgan I believe). Get to hunting! (sorry, COMC has been checked)

[steve B]

I have a couple of the 91 topps with the manager back on a players card or players back on a managers card. I'm still not sure if it's because they got the sheet layout wrong or just printed the blue part on the wrong reddish sheets. Either would probably be hard to find since it's a pretty major mistake.

On the Azocar, can you make out the number in the reddish ink part behind the blue?

And I wonder if we could get those into any of the player registries

Steve B

[mouschi]

Originally Posted by steve B

I have a couple of the 91 topps with the manager back on a players card or players back on a managers card. I'm still not sure if it's because they got the sheet layout wrong or just printed the blue part on the wrong reddish sheets. Either would probably be hard to find since it's a pretty major mistake.

On the Azocar, can you make out the number in the reddish ink part behind the blue?

And I wonder if we could get those into any of the player registries

Steve B

If you have a Canseco version of this, I'd be interested!

[steve B]

No Canseco for sure in my batch.

You can check to see if it's even possible if the error is a partial wrong back.
Check the sheet layouts and see if Canseco is in the same place as any of the manager cards (Or other cards, there should be players with checklist backs etc too. )

I'll have to check a couple places and see if I have any Canseco oddities around.

Steve B

[mouschi]

Originally Posted by steve B

No Canseco for sure in my batch.

You can check to see if it's even possible if the error is a partial wrong back.
Check the sheet layouts and see if Canseco is in the same place as any of the manager cards (Or other cards, there should be players with checklist backs etc too. )

I'll have to check a couple places and see if I have any Canseco oddities around.

Steve B

Cool thanks! I don't think I'm quite grasping the part about checking if it is even possible. Would you mind telling me more about how to go about this?

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by mouschi

Cool thanks! I don't think I'm quite grasping the part about checking if it is even possible. Would you mind telling me more about how to go about this?

You need to find some pictures of full sheets and look to see where Jose is on the sheet compared to a manager card on another sheet. If they fall in the same location it is possible.

[mouschi]

Originally Posted by bnorth

You need to find some pictures of full sheets and look to see where Jose is on the sheet compared to a manager card on another sheet. If they fall in the same location it is possible.

Gotcha, thanks!

[judsonhamlin]

I think I have missed a Tettlton error/variation in all the various lists - what is the error?

[jacksoncoupage]

Originally Posted by judsonhamlin

I think I have missed a Tettlton error/variation in all the various lists - what is the error?

The top border/photo frame can be found in yellow & gray or black.

[Laxcat]

Originally Posted by jacksoncoupage

The top border/photo frame can be found in yellow & gray or black.

So the border vars are: Tettleton top border, Seizter top border, Ventura left border, and Segui right border?

[judsonhamlin]

Thanks, didn't see that on any of the error webpages.

[4reals]

Here is the series of variations on this card that I have accumulated. The lighter the black ink gets, the more pronounced the yellow on the top border is. The difference in the first three cards is more evident in hand.

[4reals]

Originally Posted by 4reals

Here are some stat box back variations I found in a cello box. I even saw one through a pack so I left it unopened. The layout is what you would find on the back of a manager card.

There seemed to be a little interest in the these STAT BOX BACK variations so I did a little searching and put together a list of examples that have been confirmed.

#150 - Cal Ripken Jr. - Sheet D
#294 - Mike Moore (pictured in the cello pack) - Sheet D
#534 - Mike Jackson - Sheet D
#573 - Rich Rodriguez - Sheet C
#659 - Oscar Azocar - Sheet C
#759 - Bobby Cox (Mgr.) - Sheet C
#778 - Danny Gladden - Sheet D

If anyone has others please let me know and I'll add it to this list. It appears all come from sheets C & D. If anyone has any full sheets they should start with those two. If any STAT BOX BACK variations are found on other sheets that would be a cool find.

SIDE NOTE - All 12 of mine are GLOW BACKS

[4reals]

Yeah, so, I get a little compulsive on this stuff and once I realized all stat back box variations were only from sheets C&D I set out to determine how many cards on each sheet had variations. It would have to be an even number. If there were four on one sheet there would be four on another. I found the attached file of sheet C doing a simple google images search. The sheet revealed five manager cards #s 321, 639, 759, 81, and 109. I also know from my own collection that #s 150 & 573 on sheet C have variations and a fellow collector showed a pic of #659 from sheet C with the variation. That makes 8 cards total. That would mean there should be 8 on sheet D. Unfortunately, I couldn't find an image of sheet D to compare. Hypothetically, all C-sheet managers should have variations, unless there is a manager in the same location on sheet D meaning the layouts would be a wash and no variation would exist. Of the 8 C-sheet possibilities, only two are unconfirmed with no pictured examples, #s 81 & 109.

I looked up all the manager cards on COMC and found five manager cards with sheet D codes. They are #s 351, 231, 519, 261, and 291. That would mean there are at least three others that aren't managers. All three are confirmed in my collection with #s 778, 534, and 294. There's the 8 on the D-sheet.

Now I needed to match them up without having a D sheet image to look at. Impossible? Well, I realized if you look closely at the numbers on the back of player cards you can see an overprint of the shadow where the other card's number got printed on it. It was tough to make them out but I found that...
#150 (Cal Ripken) has #351 (Joe Torre) printed on it.
#778 (Danny Gladden) has #321 (Bob Rodgers) printed on it.
#573 (Rich Rodriguez) has #231 (Doug Rader) printed on it.
#534 (Mike Jackson) has #639 (Frank Robinson) printed on it.
#659 (Oscar Azocar) appears to have #261 (Bud Harrelson) on it, though I'm not 100% sure on that one because I don't own a 659 variation and am basing it off of the pic in this thread.
#759 (Bobby Cox) is confirmed to have a variation so he has to match up with a player. The only player left would be #294 (Mike Moore)

That leaves (2) c-sheet managers and (2) D-sheet managers which could wash each other out if they are found in the same locations on the sheet. They are #s 81 (Gaston), 109 (Riddoch), 519 (Sparky Anderson), and 291 (Wathan).

To conclude:
I would love to see pics of variations of #s 351, 231, and 261. I'm confident they exist but they must remain unconfirmed until examples surface. #s 81, 109, 519, and 291 are also outside possibilities but I don't think they exist.

[4reals]

Side note - I was just thinking about the overprinted number thing. The stat back boxes might be limited to the 12 cards mentioned in the previous post, however, if the entire sheet was mixed up then that means there are variations for all cards on sheets C&D. I will try and find an example to show what I'm trying to say.

[mouschi]

nice detective work! It sounds like Canseco wouldn't have one then. I'll still be on the lookout though

[Laxcat]

Has anyone noticed that sometime in the print run the bold logo started to fade to give it a half finished look?

[4reals]

Originally Posted by 4reals

Side note - I was just thinking about the overprinted number thing. The stat back boxes might be limited to the 12 cards mentioned in the previous post, however, if the entire sheet was mixed up then that means there are variations for all cards on sheets C&D. I will try and find an example to show what I'm trying to say.

I gave up hope on this theory...kinda burned out on the whole thing right now. If someone else finds one let us know!

[4reals]

Originally Posted by Laxcat

Has anyone noticed that sometime in the print run the bold logo started to fade to give it a half finished look?

I did notice this on ebay if it is what you're talking about.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1991-Topps-6...4AAOSwkZhWRSQc

[Laxcat]

I went through roughly 20,000 '91's and pulled 5 of the logos that looked like they ran out halfway through printing. Just trying to understand the difference between all the backs. I haven't found any of those coach backs but have found 4 different backs for some(half bold logo makes 5)

[4reals]

5 out of 20,000. They seem quite scarce. Great finds! Perhaps they're transitions from the bold logo to the screened logos, no one will probably ever know.

[judsonhamlin]

Originally Posted by jacksoncoupage

Consecutive. 12345-12610. Definite short prints. Possible double or triple prints.

I checked and have a D12611 code card, so is that previously unknown.

[jacksoncoupage]

Originally Posted by judsonhamlin

I checked and have a D12611 code card, so is that previously unknown.

No, it was a mistake on my part. I believe that is the last card, both my working sets have it as well.

[Rookiemonster]

Don't forget about the rare football backs

[Laxcat]

Just pulled a vending case from storage. If I get enough time I'm going to bust it.

[4reals]

Just got an Oscar Azocar and Joe Torre stat box error out of the same box! Have only seen one copy of the Azocar on these boards and the Torre is the first I've ever seen! Still trying to find a Rader #231 and a Bud Harrelson #261.

[Rich Klein]

Originally Posted by Laxcat

Just pulled a vending case from storage. If I get enough time I'm going to bust it.

In case you ever bust that case; I wonder if they put in any of their buy back cards into said case

[ALR-bishop]

As I recall Topps was supposed to have gone into the market and bought 3 full set runs, 1952 to 1991. One run was the grand prize if you drew the right Game Winners card. Other winners cards were good for one of the full sets. The third run, 1957 on was distributed in packs. Not sure how many may still be lying around in unopened packs. From 52 to 56 there were redemption cards in packs. Not sure how many in those years were not redeemed. I also seem to recall that some high value post 56 cards also had to be redeemed and were not included in packs, but not sure

Still looking for 3 of the serial numbered game cards to complete a run

[CMGsBBCs]

I've been peering into this 1991 Topps rabbit hole for a little while... and I've seen all the info about the printing variations, error/corrected stats, A*B*, E*F*/F* sheet variation cards (which I probably won't seek out). I'm just trying to confirm the back BOLD and GLOW variations. I know the A & B sheet cards are the only ones with the bold back logo, so 264 cards (if you count the managers, which most don't, but probably the same boldness, just not as obvious because no logo so minimal red is printed over anything).

Are all the bold back cards glow backs?

... and am I assuming that all the other 792 cards are available in both glow & non-glow?

So is my count correct (not counting "other variations") that there should be
792 Non-bold Glow back
792 Non-bold, NON-Glow
...sorry, I don't have the following number off the top of my head...
250-something Bold Back Glow Back
250-something Bold Back NON-Glow back?

[Rich Klein]

Originally Posted by ALR-bishop

As I recall Topps was supposed to have gone into the market and bought 3 full set runs, 1952 to 1991. One run was the grand prize if you drew the right Game Winners card. Other winners cards were good for one of the full sets. The third run, 1957 on was distributed in packs. Not sure how many may still be lying around in unopened packs. From 52 to 56 there were redemption cards in packs. Not sure how many in those years were not redeemed. I also seem to recall that some high value post 56 cards also had to be redeemed and were not included in packs, but not sure

Still looking for 3 of the serial numbered game cards to complete a run

IIRC Topps had redemptions for all cards which Booked (Listed in Beckett) for $50 or more at the time. Meaning a card which was under $50 then but over now could well be in the packs (1966T Grant Jackson anyone)

Rich

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by CMGsBBCs

I've been peering into this 1991 Topps rabbit hole for a little while... and I've seen all the info about the printing variations, error/corrected stats, A*B*, E*F*/F* sheet variation cards (which I probably won't seek out). I'm just trying to confirm the back BOLD and GLOW variations. I know the A & B sheet cards are the only ones with the bold back logo, so 264 cards (if you count the managers, which most don't, but probably the same boldness, just not as obvious because no logo so minimal red is printed over anything).

Are all the bold back cards glow backs?

... and am I assuming that all the other 792 cards are available in both glow & non-glow?

So is my count correct (not counting "other variations") that there should be
792 Non-bold Glow back
792 Non-bold, NON-Glow
...sorry, I don't have the following number off the top of my head...
250-something Bold Back Glow Back
250-something Bold Back NON-Glow back?

I'm doing a checklist of all of my Glow/Non glow and Bold Glow/Bold Non glow backs. So far I have finished about 1/3 of the 792 cards plus the variations and in my personal experience the Non-glow backs are less common than the glow backs and with some cards far less common.

Here are a few examples

#146 Dan Plasac 34 glow 3 non-glow
#150 Cal Ripken 34 glow 5 non-glow
#253 Gary Templeton 36 glow 5 non-glow


#71 Jim Acker 12 bold glow 1 bold non-glow
#188 Damon Berryhill 13 bold glow 2 bold non-glow
#220 Tim Wallach 11 bold glow 2 bold non-glow

[CMGsBBCs]

Originally Posted by Pat R

I'm doing a checklist of all of my Glow/Non glow and Bold Glow/Bold Non glow backs. So far I have finished about 1/3 of the 792 cards plus the variations and in my personal experience the Non-glow backs are less common than the glow backs and with some cards far less common.

Here are a few examples

#146 Dan Plasac 34 glow 3 non-glow
#150 Cal Ripken 34 glow 5 non-glow
#253 Gary Templeton 36 glow 5 non-glow


#71 Jim Acker 12 bold glow 1 bold non-glow
#188 Damon Berryhill 13 bold glow 2 bold non-glow
#220 Tim Wallach 11 bold glow 2 bold non-glow

I've opened a few 1991 Topps items lately, A 100 count Jumbo pack (no bolds, glow/no glow mix), some 40 count Jumbo packs (no bolds, glow/no glow mix), some 45 count Rack packs (no bolds, I think mostly no glow), and for years I've had some cello boxes (34/pack) sitting around.

All of my cello packs have had all bold sheet A & B cards in one grouping in the back of the pack. All are Glow. But it does sound like if I want to get what I'll consider my "master" set, I'll have to do some looking for Bold, no-glow backs.

All of the cards in the 34/pk cello that could have statistical errors have them, so I'm assuming these were "early" boxes. In the first box, I got a Whiten hand over, but the Storm Davis had no registration mark. In the second box, the Whiten was hand under, but I got two Storm Davis with a registration mark. Boyd (pink corner in cello, hand over in a rack). Hoiles (black border in all so far), Drabek (none in box 1, black in box 2). I'm sure I got all of these from the same estate auction, probably in the late 1990s or early 2000s... So it seems the consistency of some of these print variations may be random and not found in any specific pack type.

I cut the tape on a factory set, but haven't decided whether to pull these cards out as they have been factory packed (AKA, the ribbed edge look, where when humans sort them, the edges are even). So I guess I'll just dig in there and see where things are... I think someone said the sets are all glow, so I guess I'll see, but I assume "data" on the complete sets is pretty well known.

I'm guessing, opening the rest of my 34/pk Cello, could pay for what I could get for them if I get more Davis or Whiten cards, but I guess I won't hold out hope for Drabek or Hoiles. (but then I'd have to put them all in order)

[butchie_t]

I have 6 cello boxes gathering dust and going nowhere fast. I guess I'd be better off opening them and seeing what is in them than what they are doing now.

Then maybe I can help with your master set. Because, they are not doing me any good and taking up space.

What/how do you look for this back stuff? These are early deliveries and I have seen some stat errors and other variations in these, I had 10 boxes at one time.

Anyway, if you are interested, I'd be happy to bust cello for you.

Cheers,

Butch

[judsonhamlin]

If anyone comes up with a Randy Bush no print code variation, please shoot me a PM. One of the few verified variants I have struck out on. Thx

[CMGsBBCs]

Originally Posted by butchie_t

I have 6 cello boxes gathering dust and going nowhere fast. I guess I'd be better off opening them and seeing what is in them than what they are doing now.

Then maybe I can help with your master set. Because, they are not doing me any good and taking up space.

What/how do you look for this back stuff? These are early deliveries and I have seen some stat errors and other variations in these, I had 10 boxes at one time.

Anyway, if you are interested, I'd be happy to bust cello for you.

Cheers,

Butch

This is not a priority build for me (as it is a 34 year old set)... and I still have 4-5 more Cello boxes myself. I'm not going all in and I won't get into trying to get the sheet code variations (some cards are printed with one sheet or two sheet letters... and some with no sheet, some being very rare). The Stat Error cards are common enough for me to complete (aside from the Joe Morgan, but I'll try)... and same for the border variations & Boyd logo variations... but I'm not personally interested in the sheet code stuff being pretty various and rare.

I will try to look for some of these sheet variations as I open my boxes, but it's not one I'll try to go out of my way to find. If I do find one or the rare ones, I'll try and make it available here. I do have an extra Storm Davis with Registration mark, if anyone is currently looking for it... and I should have duplicates of most BOLD GLOW backs by the time I'm done.

Not looking forward to the sorting process for these, but that's what we do...

[butchie_t]

Originally Posted by CMGsBBCs

This is not a priority build for me (as it is a 34 year old set)... and I still have 4-5 more Cello boxes myself. I'm not going all in and I won't get into trying to get the sheet code variations (some cards are printed with one sheet or two sheet letters... and some with no sheet, some being very rare). The Stat Error cards are common enough for me to complete (aside from the Joe Morgan, but I'll try)... and same for the border variations & Boyd logo variations... but I'm not personally interested in the sheet code stuff being pretty various and rare.

I will try to look for some of these sheet variations as I open my boxes, but it's not one I'll try to go out of my way to find. If I do find one or the rare ones, I'll try and make it available here. I do have an extra Storm Davis with Registration mark, if anyone is currently looking for it... and I should have duplicates of most BOLD GLOW backs by the time I'm done.

Not looking forward to the sorting process for these, but that's what we do...

Ok cool, thanks.

Just throwing the offer in case you were interested.

What is the Morgan stat error BTW?

Cheers,

B.T.

[CMGsBBCs]

Originally Posted by butchie_t

Ok cool, thanks.

Just throwing the offer in case you were interested.

What is the Morgan stat error BTW?

Cheers,

B.T.

The Joe Morgan MGR error is with the stats on the back, there are multiple variations (if you ask some), but the main/rare error is that it lists Wade Boggs HITS as 87, instead of 187. Apparently, it's one of the toughest to come by.

I've also heard of other "variations" where the 1 in 187 is misaligned, either higher or lower than it should be. That's not something I would seek out, but if I happened to notice it, I'd set it aside.

[ALR-bishop]

#21

[butchie_t]

Thank you Al and CMGsBBCs for that info. This set is like the never-ending story. It keeps rewriting itself all the time.

This card alone may be worth busting my cello boxes. They were early in the run purchases and have numerous variations in them......Anything is possible

Cheers.

B. T.

[Pat R]

The 91 Topps is a great set if you like to collect variations. There are a lot of easy variations and a few difficult-very difficult variations and if you want to collect all the variations with all the possible backs even some of the easy variation can be difficult with either a glow or no glow back. The most difficult I found was Scott Coolbaugh no pink feather with a glow back. I have over 40 Coolbaugh's in glow backs and all of them are the pink feather variation except one lone example with no pink feather. I found the Keith Comstock Cubs with a no glow back to be another difficult variation but not as difficult as the Coolbaugh.