T213 related to T206 revisited w/1942 checklist info added..now w/Old Judges too

[rhettyeakley]

I think one has to remember what information was available to him at the time he was organizing the ACC. Obviously, nobody had done the type of research that the T206 crowd has done over the last 20 years so all of that was not known to him, so the fact that the checklist of T213-1 doesn't really jive with any particular "series" of T206's wouldn't have mattered at all to Burdick--otherwise E92 would have been broken down to many different #'s as some of the manufacturers made different players (that wasn't part of his understanding/intent IMO).

The paper stock is correctly id'ed as "heavy paper" (as oppsed to tissue paper, or typing paper, etc.) as sure it is thin but compared to most "paper" it was relatively thick--so he was correctly describing the stock as "heavy".

I have no doubt had there not been the other t213 sets they would have been grouped as a T206 set by him--that was his MO with the rest of the ACC. However, had he done that today we would be having debates about why T206 Coupon should have been given their own ACC designation because the checklisting doesn't allow them to fit nicely into any "Series" or "chronological" order (like the rest of the T206 brands do).

[DixieBaseball]

The paper stock is correctly id'ed as "heavy paper" (as oppsed to tissue paper, or typing paper, etc.) as sure it is thin but compared to most "paper" it was relatively thick--so he was correctly describing the stock as "heavy".

Rhett, I respectively disagree, as Coupon's are thinner than typing paper. They are equivalent to notebook paper (That was my point in the last post) if you take notebook paper and cut it out the same dimensions as T card, they feel one in the same.

I do however understand why they called it heavy, but I think that is technically wrong. (If you take a piece of notebook paper, cut it to T dimension, then it is not as flimsy. You would not call this paper heavy, although it is more rigid all of a sudden compared to had you left the notebook paper 8x11)

Sorry to split hairs again, but perhaps a fun project would be to get a proffessional to measure a Coupon and a piece of Notebook paper, Typing paper, etc. for comparison sake. Maybe the findings would be more glaring...

[tedzan]

Regarding the thickness (or lack of it) of the T213-1 stock......this is a "red-herring". Pardon my use of this idiom, but there are more significant factors
that reinforce the present day thinking that the 1910 "COUPON" set of cards should be re-classified as one more T-brand in the T206 set family.

(1)....This set includes 48 - Major League subjects derived from an early T206 press run of the 350-only series.

(2)....From the 48 subjects in the Southern League series (OLD MILL & PIEDMONT runs), twenty T206 subjects of the Southern Association are included
in this set since the COUPON tobacco was available in the Gulf region.


And before some of you jump on me for including the Six Super Prints in the "350-only" series, these 6 subjects were initially printed as part of this series.
Then these Super Prints were initially extended into the 460 series when American Litho. short-printed them in the SOVEREIGN 460-only press run.

Actually, Scot Reader's definition of the Six Super Prints is the most accurate............

"These 6 cards were initially 350-only subjects; and, subsequently 460-only subjects".


OK....in my opinion, the T213-1 cards were Short-printed (circa Spring/Summer 1910) and were shipped to the tobacco plant in New Orleans (Factory #3)
to be associated with this relatively new brand identified as "COUPON".
Obviously, these cards were not meant to serve as "stifferners" in their packs. As most tobacco cards have been. Perhaps Jon Canfield will inform us about
the nature of the early "COUPON" cigarette packs (or boxes).

Do we really know if these cards were actually inserted into packs ?

Perhaps these cards may have been distributed like the Ty Cobb/Ty Cobb card......not as inserts.


TED Z

[Leon]

Just searching some checklist threads and came across this one. Seems to be pretty good info on T213 so that's why I am bumping it.
In addition, I might have posted this before, but it's some pretty cool reading anyway, so here it is again. And lastly, to answer at least one of Teds (hi Ted) questions, I don't know if a T213-1 Coupon card has been found in a pack or not. Good question though. As for these pages in this old Bulletin manual, they date circa 1942. enjoy

[wonkaticket]

Good stuff Leon, never noticed as others have that the first checklist up top says that Type 1 coupons are on heavy paper. I have always found type ones to be on thinner more delicate paper, guess it depends on how one classifies “heavy” paper.

Thanks for showing I enjoyed looking these over. Neat stuff!

Cheers,

John

[the 'stache]

This is a really fascinating discussion. Thank you, Leon.

[RCMcKenzie]

Leon, thanks for bringing this back to the top, as I was not reading the board in 2011. Those are some priceless hobby archives you have there.


T213-1 Coupon cards are on very heavy paper. The paper stock is thin compared to other cardboard series, but it is "Heavy" or dense in that the colors on the front do not show through to the back. Light paper, like typing or notebook paper, is not sturdy enough for colors not to be seen from the other side of the paper.

And, I agree with Jim that T216 Virginia Extra are much more difficult to find than a Coupon card. The T216 are another interesting series, in that it seems that if grouped by the front of the card, then they should be classified with the matching candy or E cards.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Leon

Just searching some checklist threads and came across this one. Seems to be pretty good info on T213 so that's why I am bumping it.
In addition, I might have posted this before, but it's some pretty cool reading anyway, so here it is again. And lastly, to answer at least one of Teds (hi Ted) questions, I don't know if a T213-1 Coupon card has been found in a pack or not. Good question though. As for these pages in this old Bulletin manual, they date circa 1942. enjoy

Hi Leon

Neat stuff.

I don't think I'll bet the farm....but, maybe one of my two barns....that we will never find a "COUPON" cigarette pack. So, finding
a T213-1 card in a pack is a moot point.

The 1910 COUPON cigarettes were marketed in cartons containing 100's of cigarettes.



....... Spring/Summer 1910 .................................................. 1914 .............................................. 1919
. . . . . .

. .



TED Z

[RCMcKenzie]

This is the pack that Canfield shows on his site, but I have not seen any proof that these are the packs that contained t213.

www.ebay.com/itm/321206322803

[Leon]

Hi Ted
I got my information from Jon's site,

http://www.baseballandtobacco.com/t213.htm

Can you tell me where you got yours? I always want to learn something I don't know about this stuff.

[RCMcKenzie]

The ebay seller had 2 of these packs. He says they have 20 cigarettes in them. So, clearly T213-3 were not sold in the packs that this guy had. Has anyone ever opened one and found a T213-2? Canfield says T213-3 were included in these. Not slamming the guy, he has a wealth of information on his pack site, just asking.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Leon

Hi Ted
I got my information from Jon's site,

http://www.baseballandtobacco.com/t213.htm

Can you tell me where you got yours? I always want to learn something I don't know about this stuff.

Good morning Leon

First, I have seen a carton (measuring approx. 11" x 3" x 2") labelled "COUPON" Cigarettes. No cigarettes in this carton, but I think it is fair to assume it originally
contained 100's of "COUPON" cigarettes.

Some years ago, I asked Jon if he had seen (or was aware) of a 10-cigarette pack labelled "COUPON" Cigarettes. Jon said that no such pack has ever been seen.

The key here is the significance of the QUOTES on the brand name. It is my understanding that any new tobacco brand that ATC introduced into the market prior
to having a Registered Trademark, required the labelling of this brand with quotes. I've added the "PIRATE" cigarettes pack (and card) and the "Ty Cobb" Tobacco
card as further examples of the "quoted" brands.

Furthermore, consider this....as you very well know, two regular T-cards inserted in these packs also served as "stiffiners". There is no way that the 1910 COUPON
(soft card-board) cards served this purpose. And, the 1910 COUPON cards were never meant to be stiffiners, hence the softer cardboard stock.

So, until we find a standard 10-cigarette pack labelled "COUPON", you'll have to trust my take on this. I'm 99% certain we will NOT find such a pack. That's why I
am willing to bet one my barns



.


. .



Pardon my lengthy response.


TED Z