T213 related to T206 revisited w/1942 checklist info added..now w/Old Judges too

[Leon]

Originally Posted by cfc1909

1. says they are on heavy paper. This is not so-the type 1 are on very thin stock like Virginia Extra and the Virginia Extra issue(t216) is much more scare-rare that 213-1.

Dunno Jim. I think they could be called heavy "paper". Had he said stock or cardboard, I would maybe think differently.

And Ted......to clarify my point above, I am not saying I think T213-1 are a type of T206. What I meant is that the way I read the statement from Burdick, above, with him referencing the other two T213 series, he might have thought differently had they not existed. With the other two series included I think he got it right. I guess I need to go back and read the minutia of the threads as to what Jim and Tim are referring to. I have a fair amount more of some early T206 writings. I will see if any will give any more info on these two issues and how they might relate to each other.

[cfc1909]

whether you call it paper or stock it is not heavy. I am sure you have handled these and they are like a sheet of loose leaf paper or thinner.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by cfc1909

whether you call it paper or stock it is not heavy. I am sure you have handled these and they are like a sheet of loose leaf paper or thinner.

I guess I have handled around 30-40 raw ones though I haven't kept exact count. I describe it as thin stock. We both know what it feels like it's only a matter of how we describe it that is debatable.

[wonkaticket]

Really cool Leon thanks for giving us these little windows into the past I really enjoy them!

Cheers,

John

P.S. I think T213's are really T207's I just like being difficult.

[Abravefan11]

Originally Posted by Leon

I guess I need to go back and read the minutia of the threads as to what Jim and Tim are referring to.

If you go back and read the "trivial" details that were posted it's going to be difficult to understand what Jim and I were referring to.

[ChiefBenderForever]

Interesting stuff and I think that the Coupon type 1 will always be T213-1 but sure would cause a ruckus in the hobby if changed ! The only thing we know for sure is that a Ty Cobb back is without doubt a T206 !

[DixieBaseball]

Leon - Jim,

I think you are both right in a sense, but possibly the bulletin is technically wrong, but right in thought. Let me explain... I think of the coupon type 1's as the same thickness as a piece of paper. If you hold up a 8x11 piece of paper it is flimsy and drops on one end holding it by the other end, but if you cut out a piece of that paper roughly the size of the type 1 coupon, it does not fall, but performs the same way a Type 1 would should you hold it on one end. (The Coupon behaves the same way) I really think the Coupon and a piece of notebook paper are the same weight/thickness. Perhaps a piece of notebook paper is a 1/32 of a millimeter thinner !?! To call a Type 1 "heavy" as I imagine they were referring to "Heavy Paper" seems technically wrong. I bet if you made a type 1 coupon 8x11 it would fall like a flimsy piece of paper holding it on one end... (Gosh, I hope this rambling makes sense....) Point is, a Coupon and a piece of paper are more or less the same.

Can you say, splitting hairs !

[rhettyeakley]

I think one has to remember what information was available to him at the time he was organizing the ACC. Obviously, nobody had done the type of research that the T206 crowd has done over the last 20 years so all of that was not known to him, so the fact that the checklist of T213-1 doesn't really jive with any particular "series" of T206's wouldn't have mattered at all to Burdick--otherwise E92 would have been broken down to many different #'s as some of the manufacturers made different players (that wasn't part of his understanding/intent IMO).

The paper stock is correctly id'ed as "heavy paper" (as oppsed to tissue paper, or typing paper, etc.) as sure it is thin but compared to most "paper" it was relatively thick--so he was correctly describing the stock as "heavy".

I have no doubt had there not been the other t213 sets they would have been grouped as a T206 set by him--that was his MO with the rest of the ACC. However, had he done that today we would be having debates about why T206 Coupon should have been given their own ACC designation because the checklisting doesn't allow them to fit nicely into any "Series" or "chronological" order (like the rest of the T206 brands do).

[DixieBaseball]

The paper stock is correctly id'ed as "heavy paper" (as oppsed to tissue paper, or typing paper, etc.) as sure it is thin but compared to most "paper" it was relatively thick--so he was correctly describing the stock as "heavy".

Rhett, I respectively disagree, as Coupon's are thinner than typing paper. They are equivalent to notebook paper (That was my point in the last post) if you take notebook paper and cut it out the same dimensions as T card, they feel one in the same.

I do however understand why they called it heavy, but I think that is technically wrong. (If you take a piece of notebook paper, cut it to T dimension, then it is not as flimsy. You would not call this paper heavy, although it is more rigid all of a sudden compared to had you left the notebook paper 8x11)

Sorry to split hairs again, but perhaps a fun project would be to get a proffessional to measure a Coupon and a piece of Notebook paper, Typing paper, etc. for comparison sake. Maybe the findings would be more glaring...

[tedzan]

Regarding the thickness (or lack of it) of the T213-1 stock......this is a "red-herring". Pardon my use of this idiom, but there are more significant factors
that reinforce the present day thinking that the 1910 "COUPON" set of cards should be re-classified as one more T-brand in the T206 set family.

(1)....This set includes 48 - Major League subjects derived from an early T206 press run of the 350-only series.

(2)....From the 48 subjects in the Southern League series (OLD MILL & PIEDMONT runs), twenty T206 subjects of the Southern Association are included
in this set since the COUPON tobacco was available in the Gulf region.


And before some of you jump on me for including the Six Super Prints in the "350-only" series, these 6 subjects were initially printed as part of this series.
Then these Super Prints were initially extended into the 460 series when American Litho. short-printed them in the SOVEREIGN 460-only press run.

Actually, Scot Reader's definition of the Six Super Prints is the most accurate............

"These 6 cards were initially 350-only subjects; and, subsequently 460-only subjects".


OK....in my opinion, the T213-1 cards were Short-printed (circa Spring/Summer 1910) and were shipped to the tobacco plant in New Orleans (Factory #3)
to be associated with this relatively new brand identified as "COUPON".
Obviously, these cards were not meant to serve as "stifferners" in their packs. As most tobacco cards have been. Perhaps Jon Canfield will inform us about
the nature of the early "COUPON" cigarette packs (or boxes).

Do we really know if these cards were actually inserted into packs ?

Perhaps these cards may have been distributed like the Ty Cobb/Ty Cobb card......not as inserts.


TED Z