Announcing "Collectors Forensics Register" - Revolutionizing the Hobby

[oldjudge]

What a great franchise, assuming all the llama ranches were taken

[dstraate]

Whew. Tough crowd. He might just buy a banner ad next time

[doug.goodman]

...that the clocks fell back an hour in most of the country this past weekend, but evidently I was wrong, they seem to have jumped forward to April Fool's Day.

[uffda51]

I have a llama ranch, which I inherited from my grandfather, but I'm not sure if my llamas are genuine. Do they come with Uzit backs?

[barrysloate]

Well this has been a tough crowd, and this is probably not the response you were expecting. But I have to say I don't understand what this service provides. I understand you don't grade cards, but according to your promo your company's goal is to deter fraud. But how? If I submit a card that was doctored, are you saying you will spot that alteration every time using forensic techniques? And how does that differ from the already established grading companies- don't they authenticate as well as grade cards? Are you saying you will catch the mistakes they missed? I'm sure you have put a great deal of thought into this service but you lost me at "Hello Net54 Members."

[Collectors Forensics Reg]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Well this has been a tough crowd, and this is probably not the response you were expecting. But I have to say I don't understand what this service provides. I understand you don't grade cards, but according to your promo your company's goal is to deter fraud. But how? If I submit a card that was doctored, are you saying you will spot that alteration every time using forensic techniques? And how does that differ from the already established grading companies- don't they authenticate as well as grade cards? Are you saying you will catch the mistakes they missed? I'm sure you have put a great deal of thought into this service but you lost me at "Hello Net54 Members."

Thanks for the inquiry, Barry. Let me address your post in two parts. First, the answer is no, we are not trying to identify mistakes made by the grading companies or potential fraud while recording the forensic video. Once the cards are graded and encapsulated, we consider them a single product, each containing multiple components (slab, card, informational flip and inserts in some productions), each one of these components containing its own specific forensic properties. Those properties include weld points, trapped air, fibers, dings, scratches, ink splashes, smears, etc.

While recording the forensic video, these microscopic properties are put into the forensic record. I believe that everyone will agree that the premise of the encapsulated card is that it should never be the subject of physical change. Therefore, when performing the forensic registration of the graded card, the only thing that we care about are the forensic properties of the entire production.

We are dispassionate toward which grading company, quality or accuracy. However, once the forensic record is made public, it is subject to close scrutiny by potential buyers, interested parties or even trading companies. Herein lies the implicit fraud deterrent and quality control. If you a perpetrator of fraud, the downstream effect of the forensic registration is your potential implication or least making you think twice about engaging in fraud again.

If you are a grading company, the least desired effect from a public relations standpoint, is to have your graded product identified as a counterfeit or altered card. Such a finding may be exposed once it is registered and entered into public record. It will also call into question potentially inaccurately awarded grades, hence we expect that the grading bar will be raised considerably, since the forensics are now publicly available.

Secondly, the service is intended to do for hobbyists, what Carfax has done for auto buyers / sellers -- put everything about the product "above board". When looking at two used cars side-by-side, all things being equal, the one with the exposed history gets the sale. Both buyer and seller benefit. It will be a great enabler for card dealers and auction sellers.

Thanks for your inquiry, we hope that this helped.

[barrysloate]

Thanks for getting back, and good luck with the business. That helped a bit.

[Robextend]

I dunno, personally I don't see much use for this service. If I didn't trust the grading company, I wouldn't have them grade my cards in the first place. This seems like overkill, just my two cents.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by Robextend

I dunno, personally I don't see much use for this service. If I didn't trust the grading company, I wouldn't have them grade my cards in the first place. This seems like overkill, just my two cents.

Exactly -- SGC currently provides me with all the peace of mind that I need regarding my collectible cardboard.

[Orioles1954]

Originally Posted by Collectors Forensics Reg

Secondly, the service is intended to do for hobbyists, what Carfax has done for auto buyers / sellers -- put everything about the product "above board". When looking at two used cars side-by-side, all things being equal, the one with the exposed history gets the sale.

If you buy a lemon of a car that could be the difference between life and death. For that reason, a service like Carfax is a nice bonus. However, for sports cards, I will continue to ask for big scans and submit to SGC.

[tinkereversandme]

I think the comparison to the Carfax is simply amusing. In one case, I have to get to work in something I hope is safe and viable and is part of every day life and I hope what I use to create a decision upon purchasing the item shows that I won't be taken. In this case, it's merely further assurance of a purchase of a baseball card and...to be honest with you, my head hurts from reading this and I really don't understand a need for it. Good luck however.

I'm not your target audience to begin with. I have fifty or so graded cards (and growing) and I think SGC does a wonderful job.

Bob

[Anthony S.]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

What a great franchise, assuming all the llama ranches were taken

My buddy, Al Paca, runs a llama ranch.

[barrysloate]

Originally Posted by Anthony S.

My buddy, Al Paca, runs a llama ranch.

I know Al...he's a real lamb in sheep's clothing.

[judsonhamlin]

Another service that I can ignore with impunity...

[jmk59]

I don't know about the exact details of the business set-up, but I think I do see some merit in the idea.

I've been on these boards a long time, and I can't imagine how many times I've seen people trying to figure out the history of a card in an auction. Some eagle-eyed auction browser will spot a card and speculate that it may or may not be the same card that used to be in this or that holder with this or that different grade and sold for $X in some past auction. It is very common for people to start trying to backtrack a particular card and confirm something about previous grading or other history. Ususally they are trying to spot little aritifacts on the card - slight stains, tiny paper pulls, etc - and match them up to blurry scans and things like that.

I've also seen it suggested many times that grading companies scan cards as they come in to help keep registries straight as cards are cracked and resubmitted, expose fraud if someone wants to do their own reholdering, identify alterations, etc. It's always been agreed that it doesn't seem feasible for the graders to do that.

So I think it could be useful to have an online archive of graded cards with dates, companies, grades, serial numbers and very detailed images. One spot where you could try to find an image and confirmed grade/company for many cards. I would bet I see it referenced on this board eventually as cards are logged and posted and someone here recognizes the same card in different clothing in a different auction.

I also think it could be a valuable link for ebay sellers that don't have the time or equipment to post detailed 50x scans.

As to the business model, pricing, target audiences, etc, I don't know how well that will go. But I definitely see some usefulness in the overall idea.

Joann

[vintagecpa]

Where was this company about 3 years ago during the 1930 Goudey Ruth debacle?

[Collectors Forensics Reg]

Originally Posted by jmk59

I don't know about the exact details of the business set-up, but I think I do see some merit in the idea.

I've been on these boards a long time, and I can't imagine how many times I've seen people trying to figure out the history of a card in an auction. Some eagle-eyed auction browser will spot a card and speculate that it may or may not be the same card that used to be in this or that holder with this or that different grade and sold for $X in some past auction. It is very common for people to start trying to backtrack a particular card and confirm something about previous grading or other history. Ususally they are trying to spot little aritifacts on the card - slight stains, tiny paper pulls, etc - and match them up to blurry scans and things like that.

I've also seen it suggested many times that grading companies scan cards as they come in to help keep registries straight as cards are cracked and resubmitted, expose fraud if someone wants to do their own reholdering, identify alterations, etc. It's always been agreed that it doesn't seem feasible for the graders to do that.

So I think it could be useful to have an online archive of graded cards with dates, companies, grades, serial numbers and very detailed images. One spot where you could try to find an image and confirmed grade/company for many cards. I would bet I see it referenced on this board eventually as cards are logged and posted and someone here recognizes the same card in different clothing in a different auction.

I also think it could be a valuable link for ebay sellers that don't have the time or equipment to post detailed 50x scans.

As to the business model, pricing, target audiences, etc, I don't know how well that will go. But I definitely see some usefulness in the overall idea.

Joann

Thanks very much for the post Joann. A little history on our model... it is the product of about eight month's worth of enumerating the issues that we felt were effecting the hobby in a less than positive manner. We then applied solutions to each issue. In some cases one solution addressed several issues and in other cases several solutions were required to correct one issue.

We drew from our experiences of over 100 years, collectively, in the hobby and have also leveraged our professional backgrounds in Regulatory Technology and Enforcement (on Wall Street) and Memorabilia Sales / Authentication to deliver a service that would enable sellers while protecting buyers. We also felt that it would deter fraud while developing a self-governance through a single source with easily accessed forensic information. It is a new culture and a new paradigm, so we understand that it's something that will take a little time.

It's clear that you have been able to see the big picture Joann, and have looked through to the other side :-) This is vacuum that simply needs to be filled. To address your last statement about pricing, we offer "10 card" registration packages starting at $75 which includes free shipping and insurance back to the registrant. However, we are always open to suggestions and welcome your input.

[oldjudge]

Joann-What you are suggesting only works if all vintage cards are scanned into an accessable data base. This is not going to happen unless it is done at the grading company levels into a shared, and open, data base. As described, it will not happen at the level of this company. This service does not benefit the current owner of the card, it only benefits future owners, begging the question of why a current owner would pay the cost. The only one I see paying for this service is someone who has already doctored a card and wants it to achieve some sort of legitimacy by appearing in the data base. This whole business model is a non-starter unless these guys approach the grading companies and offer to be the universal data base for images of all cards that they grade. They could charge a minimal fee that the grading companies pass along and make their money from people who want to access their data base later.

[Matthew H]

Even if you figured out a way to make this service somehow useful to our hobby, I think you'll have a hard time getting people to pay $9 to essentially scan their cards.

[Collectors Forensics Reg]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Joann-What you are suggesting only works if all vintage cards are scanned into an accessable data base. This is not going to happen unless it is done at the grading company levels into a shared, and open, data base. As described, it will not happen at the level of this company. This service does not benefit the current owner of the card, it only benefits future owners, begging the question of why a current owner would pay the cost. The only one I see paying for this service is someone who has already doctored a card and wants it to achieve some sort of legitimacy by appearing in the data base. This whole business model is a non-starter unless these guys approach the grading companies and offer to be the universal data base for images of all cards that they grade. They could charge a minimal fee that the grading companies pass along and make their money from people who want to access their data base later.

Thanks for the post Oldjudge. Your post consists of several unrelated thoughts, so we'll address them one at a time:

Scanned Database Entries - unfortunately information can not simply be scanned into a database. We do scan the graded cards to capture their image but entering the information is a G & A function (G & A is a business term standing for General and Administrative). We do that for all cards that are registered with us and post it to our web site for public access. This gives hobbyists the ability to search our web site by grading company, serial number, player name, card number etc. No need to involve the grading companies for that.

Current Owner Benefit - 2 parts to this one... 1) We've already established earlier in this thread in a response a couple of days ago that read "Thanks for your post, Barry... stated very eloquently. You summed everything up very nicely. When looking at this service in the context of the fun and / or the love of hobby, we can certainly understand why this [no interest in the service] would be the initial reaction of hobby purists and we respect that." 2) The very first point that we made in this thread (the first bullet in our opening statement read "Sellers with forensic registrations of their cards will have a decided advantage over sellers without registrations". In short, graded card sellers (current owners) have the greatest motivation to use the service to advantage themselves from those who haven't.

Doctored Card Submission - Wow, we had to read this one a few times. We're not sure why a perp would go to the time and expense of entering his doctored cards into the public record. The consensus is that he would either be very proud of his work to indict himself in such a manner or that he wants to get caught. His fraud will appear 50 times larger under the microscope.

[BleedinBlue]

Originally Posted by Collectors Forensics Reg

Thanks very much for the post Joann. A little history on our model... it is the product of about eight month's worth of enumerating the issues that we felt were effecting the hobby in a less than positive manner. We then applied solutions to each issue. In some cases one solution addressed several issues and in other cases several solutions were required to correct one issue.

I'm curious as to what issues you came up with in your eight months of enumerating and how this service addresses each of these issues. As far as I can tell you are only potentially solving one problem: has a holder been tampered with and a card replaced SINCE the card was scanned by your service. It seems that there is no effort being made on your part to prevent someone from buying a high dollar card already slabbed, cracking that holder and replacing with a lower quality (or fraudulant copy) and then submitting to your service to "document" this as a legitimate graded card. How does your service give me any peace of mind that the card in the holder is legit just because you scanned it?