The second and third greatest base stealers of all time?

[Balticfox]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

Different rules.

By my calculations, and somebody please correct me if I am wrong, Rickey Henderson would have had 166 Stolen Bases in 1982, playing under the same rules as Billy Hamilton.

Please explain.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by Balticfox

Please explain.

In Billy Hamilton's era, you were awarded a "stolen base" if you went from 1st to 3rd on a single, 2nd to home on a single, 1st to home on a double.

Another way to explain it...if as a baserunner on base, you took an extra base beyond what the hitter took, that was considered a "stolen base". This rule wasn't changed until after 1897.

[Balticfox]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

Another way to explain it...if as a baserunner on base, you took an extra base beyond what the hitter took, that was considered a "stolen base". This rule wasn't changed until after 1897.

I like the initial rule. It's internal mathematical consistency enables every play to be slotted into it's own neat little box. I've always hated all the exceptions to the general rules in baseball.

[steve B]

While I wouldn't put him in the top three, and maybe not even in the top 5, Ill just put the name out there. A friend of mine really like this player in about 1980. I was surprised looking at his stats.

Cesar Cedeno. 550 stolen bases, and a decent string of seasons with 50+ and 53.1 war
And a sort of expected fall off at age 30 He did lead the league in getting caught a couple times, and his last few years hanging on in the big leagues weren't impressive.

But with the third most between 70 and 79 at least deserves a mention.

[Balticfox]

Cesar Cedeno certainly caught my attention when he broke into the league. Big stars with Houston were a rare thing in the 1960's and 1970's.

[D. Bergin]

Cedeno was a really, really good player. Especially when he was younger. Compiled almost 36 WAR through age 25, before injuries started taking their toll.

Looking at his Baseball Reference comparables, he started his career looking like Vada Pinson and Yaz....but finished it with Nick Markakis and Amos Otis. Good players, but not quite the potential he flashed early on.

[Balticfox]

So how about Elly de la Cruz and his MLB leading 67 stolen bases in 2024? Does he have what it takes to become an all time great on the base paths or will he soon flame out?

I think it depends upon the path he takes. To become a base stealing legend he needs to increase his OBP. This means that he has to acquire more respect for the strike zone. His strikeout to walk ratio is bad. Moreover he needs to learn to hit the ball where it's pitched. Swinging through one's power alley doesn't exactly help get on base when the ball isn't there.

So it's up to him. He has the physical tools but does he have it upstairs?

[RUKen]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

In Billy Hamilton's era, you were awarded a "stolen base" if you went from 1st to 3rd on a single, 2nd to home on a single, 1st to home on a double.

Another way to explain it...if as a baserunner on base, you took an extra base beyond what the hitter took, that was considered a "stolen base". This rule wasn't changed until after 1897.

I'm pretty sure that taking an extra base (compared to where the batter stopped) counted as a stolen base only during the seasons 1892-1897. Before that, stolen bases were scored more like modern ones, except that they were credited with a stolen base when there was an obvious fielding error on the play, and also when they over-ran the base and were then put out.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by RUKen

I'm pretty sure that taking an extra base (compared to where the batter stopped) counted as a stolen base only during the seasons 1892-1897. Before that, stolen bases were scored more like modern ones, except that they were credited with a stolen base when there was an obvious fielding error on the play, and also when they over-ran the base and were then put out.

Yes, you are correct. The rules did fluctuate a bit.

Also, throwing a monkey wrench into this whole thing. For some reason "Caught Stealing" was not a widely kept track of stat until we were further along into the 20 Century.

Ty Cobb appears to have been a wildly inefficient base stealer when you take into account he's missing 10+ seasons of "caught stealing" statistics from his career line.

[robw1959]

I'll go with Cobb. Just read the bio on the back of his T205 card and you'll know why.

[Balticfox]

For the uninitiated (including me):

[Balticfox]

Originally Posted by robw1959

I'll go with Cobb.

Yes. Lou Brock didn't exceed Ty Cobb's stolen base total of 897 until 1977 which was almost 49 years after Cobb hung up his cleats. The fact that Cobb is still number two in career triples with 295 and number one in lifetime batting average with a mark of .366 impresses me as well.