Final UPDATE. PSA Guarantee on a doctored card - Actual good news this time

[Gorditadogg]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Very few people, I think, have the resources and staying power to actually litigate these claims. I think PSA just selectively pays out but the economics of letting card doctors submit outweigh the guarantee expense probably by a ton.

That's bone-chilling to think about. If the volume of submissions from card doctors was so significant that PSA catered to their business, there would be a ridiculous amount of exposure out there they need to cover up. And I said "if".

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[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Gorditadogg

That's bone-chilling to think about. If the volume of submissions from card doctors was so significant that PSA catered to their business, there would be a ridiculous amount of exposure out there they need to cover up. And I said "if".

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I have my opinions. I think BODA's work is the tip of the iceberg. Just my opinion. It is further my opinion that at least a certain segment of this hobby has been dominated by card doctors and their facilitators for many years.

[TiffanyCards]

Originally Posted by raulus

Apologies for my ignorance here. Are you part of the BODA team? Or do you just maintain the database of doctored cards? I’m guessing that maybe the database is somehow separate from the BODA team?

I maintain the database and call out cards that, IMO, are altered, mislabeled, or fake.


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[raulus]

Originally Posted by TiffanyCards

I maintain the database and call out cards that, IMO, are altered, mislabeled, or fake.


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Cool. I guess you can update the database entry for this one when they send it back in the AA slab.

[Exhibitman]

As a professional cynic, I'd hold the happiness until the money is in hand.

Peter, you are so right on that point. CA does not allow for the recovery of attorneys' fees in civil cases unless there is a contract or a law that provides for it. That makes any lawsuit a self-funded war of attrition with PSA and its wealthy owners. Which is probably why PSA is not concerned with being sued over most altered cards it missed.

If it was my card, I would do one of three things:

1. Sue representing myself and put PSA through a financial meat grinder to force a settlement. Doesn't matter how rich they are if my costs are just my time and some filing fees.

2. Crack the card and resubmit it in person at a National or other show. I would video every step of the process--chain of custody--to prove where the card went every second from in the holder to PSA's custody. if PSA rejects it as altered, it would put PSA in a very uncomfortable position defending the original grade and that might get the case settled quietly and quickly.

3. Sell it as-is with a disclosure to the AH of what happened. Let's be honest here: there is a significant percentage of collectors who do not give a damn what anyone except PSA says and who will simply buy the card for the number on the holder. To them, the rest is just internet trolls stating opinions.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Gorditadogg

Yes, of course. To put it in perspective, there were 80 cards submitted to PSA in the batch that included the 54T Mays. PSA rejected 20 of those as altered, trimmed or undersized, but they graded the other 60. So there are 59 other cards left from that batch that were probably worked on, and could also be subject to PSA's guarantee.

There may have been 80 cards in that order. There also may have been 3, or 20, or 55, or 170, or just the 1. You don't know. The best we could do is guess based on the types of cards submitted, but that's still a guess.

As far as 20 cards being rejected for alterations, you forgot to include that they also very likely could have been rejected for minimum grades. That used to be a thing. I think it's much more likely that those cards simply didn't meet the submitters minimum grade than it is that they were rejected for alterations. But that's just my guess.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Gorditadogg

That's bone-chilling to think about. If the volume of submissions from card doctors was so significant that PSA catered to their business, there would be a ridiculous amount of exposure out there they need to cover up. And I said "if".

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They definitely did. The majority of submitters in the early days were from card doctors. PSA built their entire business off of it.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Snowman

They definitely did. The majority of submitters in the early days were from card doctors. PSA built their entire business off of it.

The irony is so rich.

[Gorditadogg]

Originally Posted by Snowman

There may have been 80 cards in that order. There also may have been 3, or 20, or 55, or 170, or just the 1. You don't know. The best we could do is guess based on the types of cards submitted, but that's still a guess.



As far as 20 cards being rejected for alterations, you forgot to include that they also very likely could have been rejected for minimum grades. That used to be a thing. I think it's much more likely that those cards simply didn't meet the submitters minimum grade than it is that they were rejected for alterations. But that's just my guess.

Read the blowout link at the top of this thread, post #8112 by Capt. Spaulding, and then let's talk some more.

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[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Gorditadogg

Read the blowout link at the top of this thread, post #8112 by Capt. Spaulding, and then let's talk some more.

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Looks like all the rejections on the presumed sub were for altered, min size or miscut. Not minimum grade.

[raulus]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

As a professional cynic, I'd hold the happiness until the money is in hand.

Fair enough!

We've agreed in principle on an amount, after a little back and forth. There's some paperwork to be completed, and then they're quoting up to 6 weeks for the check to arrive. I guess they're working off of the AH framework of waiting 6 weeks before they pay out.

Just to be clear - I'm not complaining. PSA obviously has their process, and that will take some time. So it's not surprising that there will be a wait.

But I suppose I'll also wait patiently until the check clears before I get too frisky about reinvesting it in replacement cardboard.

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by Snowman

They definitely did. The majority of submitters in the early days were from card doctors. PSA built their entire business off of it.

Rather than just fixing up cards with good eye appeal and resubmitting?

I've seen some dumb posts from your keyboard, but this one has to be tops.

Thought you were leaving??? No such luck. Must be a lonley existence

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Gorditadogg

Read the blowout link at the top of this thread, post #8112 by Capt. Spaulding, and then let's talk some more.

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I read it and I stand by what I said. Just because Lorewalker lists the cert numbers for 80 cards and claims the submission was for 80 cards doesn't mean that the submission was in fact 80 cards. We simply don't know. We can make assumptions like two of the same card having back to back certs are likely from the same submission or a run of cards within the same set are likely from one submission, but we don't ultimately know. And with this run of cert numbers, there are definitely some cards that could be from different submissions. In fact, I'd argue that the likelihood those 4 Jackie Robinson RCs and 3 Mickey Mantle RCs being in the same submission as the 1952 Topps commons is actually extremely low (near-zero). Those are almost certainly from at least two different submissions. Also, the submission could have ended with the baseball cards and the football, hockey, and basketball cards may have been from a different submission. Again, we don't know. They ran in different auctions. And just because many of the cards were sold on PWCC doesn't mean they were from the same submission either. PWCC was the largest consignment company in the hobby at the time.

And just because Lorewalker claimed that the other 20 certs were "Altered, Min Size or Miscut" does not mean that those certs were in fact deemed to have been altered, min size, or miscut. This is a prime example of what I'm constantly preaching about in this hobby. The telephone game of misinformation and malinformation is ridiculous around here. Lorewalker looks up the cert numbers on PSA website and can't find the cards listed, so he assumes they were rejected by PSA and then posts that as if it were a known fact. Then the lemmings read his post, and assume it must be true and they perpetuate it. But we know that PSA allowed submitters to put minimum grades on their submissions, which resulted in the same "We're sorry. The certification number provided was not found in the database." error listed on their website. Furthermore, we all know this to be the case. This shouldn't be news to anyone who reads these threads. Yet you guys just want to pretend like that's not an option, let alone the most likely explanation.

I think the most likely explanation of that run of certs is that they were from at least two submissions and that the invalid certs didn't meet the minimum grades listed on the submission forms.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Looks like all the rejections on the presumed sub were for altered, min size or miscut. Not minimum grade.

How could you know this without access to the backend database inside PSA? They don't post the reason a cert is invalid on the website. It just says, "We're sorry. The certification number provided was not found in the database."

Are you saying that because Lorewalker posted it, thus it must be true? lol

Is there something I'm missing? All I see are invalid certs on PSA's website and a list composed by Lorewalker claiming, without evidence, that they were deemed "Altered, Min Size or Miscut"

[parkplace33]

Originally Posted by raulus

Fair enough!

We've agreed in principle on an amount, after a little back and forth. There's some paperwork to be completed, and then they're quoting up to 6 weeks for the check to arrive. I guess they're working off of the AH framework of waiting 6 weeks before they pay out.

Just to be clear - I'm not complaining. PSA obviously has their process, and that will take some time. So it's not surprising that there will be a wait.

But I suppose I'll also wait patiently until the check clears before I get too frisky about reinvesting it in replacement cardboard.

I can’t tell you how happy I am that this working out. One question… when you say paperwork, I hope you don’t mean a nda?

By outlining the process, I think you have helped collectors who may want to try the same thing in the future.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Snowman

How could you know this without access to the backend database inside PSA? They don't post the reason a cert is invalid on the website. It just says, "We're sorry. The certification number provided was not found in the database."

Are you saying that because Lorewalker posted it, thus it must be true? lol

Is there something I'm missing? All I see are invalid certs on PSA's website and a list composed by Lorewalker claiming, without evidence, that they were deemed "Altered, Min Size or Miscut"

28639435 1948 LEAF 79 JACKIE ROBINSON VG-EX 4 6/11/2018 $7,323.23 eBay (pwcc_auctions) 401546196469
28639436 1948 LEAF 79 JACKIE ROBINSON EX-MT 6
28639437 1948 LEAF 79 JACKIE ROBINSON EX-MT 6 5/9/2018 $8,400.00 eBay (pwcc_auctions) 401530023628
28639438 1948 LEAF 79 JACKIE ROBINSON EX-MT 6
28639439 Altered, Min Size or Miscut
28639440 1951 BOWMAN 151 LARRY DOBY NM-MT+ 8.5 6/11/2018 $515.50 eBay (pwcc_auctions) 352369898846
28639441 Altered, Min Size or Miscut
28639442 1951 BOWMAN 253 MICKEY MANTLE NM 7 3/12/2018 $23,925.00 eBay (pwcc_auctions) 142708764743
28639443 1951 BOWMAN 253 MICKEY MANTLE EX-MT+ 6.5 12/4/2018 $42,322.20 eBay (pwcc_auctions)
28639444 1951 BOWMAN 253 MICKEY MANTLE NM 7
28639445 Altered, Min Size or Miscut
28639446 Altered, Min Size or Miscut
28639447 Altered, Min Size or Miscut
28639448 1952 TOPPS 10 AL ROSEN NM 7 3/12/2018 $1,009.99 eBay (pwcc_auctions) 352295235649
28639449 1952 TOPPS 14 BOB ELLIOTT BLACK BACK MINT 9 4/11/2018 $1,136.11 eBay (pwcc_auctions) 401516077394
28639450 1952 TOPPS 18 MERRILL COMBS NM 7
28639451 Altered, Min Size or Miscut
28639452 1952 TOPPS 39 DIZZY TROUT NM-MT 8 3/12/2018 $1,388.00 eBay (pwcc_auctions) 401501284252
28639453 1952 TOPPS 118 KEN RAFFENSBERGER NM-MT 8 3/12/2018 $154.50 eBay (pwcc_auctions) 352295236941
28639454 1952 TOPPS 187 BOB MILLER NM-MT+ 8.5 3/12/2018 $1,182.87 eBay (pwcc_auctions) 352295238630
28639455 Altered, Min Size or Miscut
28639456 1952 TOPPS 192 MYRON GINSBERG NM-MT+ 8.5 3/12/2018 $1,397.54 eBay (pwcc_auctions) 352295238764
28639457 1952 TOPPS 227 JOE GARAGIOLA NM 7
28639458 1952 TOPPS 227 JOE GARAGIOLA NM-MT+ 8.5 3/12/2018 $787.00 eBay (pwcc_auctions) 401501286053
28639459 1952 TOPPS 248 FRANK SHEA NM+ 7.5
28639460 1952 TOPPS 261 WILLIE MAYS NM 7
28639461 1952 TOPPS 269 WILLARD NIXON EX 5
28639462 1952 TOPPS 288 CHET NICHOLS NM 7
28639463 1952 TOPPS 291 GIL COAN NM-MT 8 3/12/2018 $249.01 eBay (pwcc_auctions) 352295240054
28639464 1952 TOPPS 293 SIBBY SISTI EX 5
28639465 1952 TOPPS 309 JIM BUSBY MINT 9 3/12/2018 $2,025.00 eBay (pwcc_auctions) 352295240144
28639466 1952 TOPPS 310 GEORGE METKOVICH NM-MT 8 3/12/2018 $1,005.00 eBay (pwcc_auctions) 401501286695
28639467 1952 TOPPS 318 HAL GREGG EX 5
28639468 1952 TOPPS 352 KARL DREWS NM-MT 8 10/15/2018 $617.00 eBay (pwcc_auctions) 401612234244
28639469 Altered, Min Size or Miscut
28639470 1952 TOPPS 385 HERMAN FRANKS NM-MT+ 8.5 10/15/2018 $926.76 eBay (pwcc_auctions) 401612234473
28639471 1952 TOPPS 395 JAKE PITLER NM-MT 8 10/15/2018 $710.00 eBay (pwcc_auctions) 352478185830
28639472 1953 TOPPS 82 MICKEY MANTLE EX-MT 6 4/11/2018 $5,213.00 eBay (pwcc_auctions) 401516087473
28639473 1953 TOPPS 82 MICKEY MANTLE EX-MT 6 3/12/2018 $5,111.00 eBay (pwcc_auctions) 401501294273
28639474 Altered, Min Size or Miscut
28639475 1954 TOPPS 201 AL KALINE NM 7 3/12/2018 $1,355.99 eBay (pwcc_auctions) 352295253228
28639476 1954 TOPPS 201 AL KALINE NM 7
28639477 1954 TOPPS 90 WILLIE MAYS NM 7 3/12/2018 $867.99 eBay (pwcc_auctions) 142708788304
28639478 1954 TOPPS 90 WILLIE MAYS NM-MT 8 4/12/2018 $3,150.00 eBay (pwcc_auctions) 401516736672
28639479 1954 TOPPS 90 WILLIE MAYS NM-MT+ 8.5 3/12/2018 $4,425.75 eBay (pwcc_auctions) 142708788480
28639480 Altered, Min Size or Miscut
28639481 1955 TOPPS 210 DUKE SNIDER NM-MT 8 4/12/2018 $2,820.00 eBay (pwcc_auctions) 352320809145
28639482 Altered, Min Size or Miscut
28639483 1957 TOPPS 170 DUKE SNIDER NM-MT 8
28639484 1957 TOPPS 30 PEE WEE REESE NM-MT+ 8.5
28639485 1957 TOPPS 1 TED WILLIAMS NM 7
28639486 1957 TOPPS 250 ED MATHEWS NM-MT 8
28639487 1957 TOPPS 250 ED MATHEWS MINT 9
28639488 Altered, Min Size or Miscut
28639489 Altered, Min Size or Miscut
28639490 1960 TOPPS 326 BOB CLEMENTE NM+ 7.5
28639491 1960 TOPPS 350 MICKEY MANTLE NM 7
28639492 1965 TOPPS 350 MICKEY MANTLE MINT 9 6/13/2018 $15,099.99 eBay (pwcc_auctions) 401546948071
28639493 Altered, Min Size or Miscut
28639494 1965 TOPPS 477 CARDINALS ROOKIES F.ACKLEY/S.CARLTON MINT 9 3/14/2018 $1,391.00 eBay (pwcc_auctions) 401502120856
28639495 1978 TOPPS 36 EDDIE MURRAY MINT 9
28639496 1952 BOWMAN LARGE 103 DON PAUL MINT 9 3/22/2018 $2,075.00 eBay (pwcc_auctions) 352303428798
28639497 1952 BOWMAN LARGE 127 OLLIE MATSON NM+ 7.5 3/22/2018 $4,049.00 eBay (pwcc_auctions) 352303429088
28639498 1955 BOWMAN 1 DOAK WALKER MINT 9 5/22/2018 $1,025.00 eBay (pwcc_auctions) 401536458782
28639499 1957 TOPPS 138 JOHN UNITAS EX+ 5.5
28639500 1957 TOPPS 138 JOHN UNITAS EX-MT 6
28639501 1957 TOPPS 138 JOHN UNITAS NM 7
28639502 1958 TOPPS 22 JOHN UNITAS NM 7
28639503 1948 BOWMAN 95 GEORGE McAFEE MINT 9 3/22/2018 $1,750.00 eBay (pwcc_auctions) 401506121528
28639504 Altered, Min Size or Miscut
28639505 Altered, Min Size or Miscut
28639506 1957 TOPPS CHECKLIST 1-154 TWIN BLONY EX-MT+ 6.5 3/22/2018 $3,706.23 eBay (pwcc_auctions) 142719534689
28639507 1961 FLEER 8 WILT CHAMBERLAIN NM 7
28639508 1957 TOPPS 33 LARRY COSTELLO NM 7
28639509 Altered, Min Size or Miscut
28639510 1957 TOPPS 17 BOB COUSY NM 7 3/20/2018 $1,332.07 eBay (pwcc_auctions) 142717452519
28639511 1957 TOPPS 77 BILL RUSSELL NM 7 4/22/2018 $14,877.00 eBay (pwcc_auctions) 352328565839
28639512 Altered, Min Size or Miscut
28639513 Altered, Min Size or Miscut
28639514 Altered, Min Size or Miscut

[raulus]

Originally Posted by parkplace33

I can’t tell you how happy I am that this working out. One question… when you say paperwork, I hope you don’t mean a nda?

By outlining the process, I think you have helped collectors who may want to try the same thing in the future.

Good question. I haven't seen this paperwork yet, although to date they haven't mentioned an NDA. It largely sounds like it's memorializing the arrangement here. They pay me a bunch of money, they send the card back in an AA slab, and I agree that my claims are settled.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I have my opinions. I think BODA's work is the tip of the iceberg. Just my opinion. It is further my opinion that at least a certain segment of this hobby has been dominated by card doctors and their facilitators for many years.

I share the same sentiment. It's a business plan these days. Of course it's all a Billion Dollar Fraud.

[Gorditadogg]

Originally Posted by Fuddjcal

I share the same sentiment. It's a business plan these days. Of course it's all a Billion Dollar Fraud.

Seems like a bad business plan, in retrospect. You collected $100 on a card that now has $100,000 potential liability to you. You could be right 99.9% of the time and still lose.

If PSA is concerned about it, though, they are not acting like it. Their president is out stumping about how conscientious they need to be with their grading, because their guarantee is behind it.

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[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Gorditadogg

Seems like a bad business plan, in retrospect. You collected $100 on a card that now has $100,000 potential liability to you. You could be right 99.9% of the time and still lose.

If PSA is concerned about it, though, they are not acting like it. Their CEO is out stumping about how conscientious they need to be with their grading, because their guarantee is behind it.

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How was it a bad plan? IMO the entire growth of PSA, the set registry, the explosion in card prices and money inflow into the hobby, happened because of the supply of high grade holdered vintage cards. My supposition is that David Hall understood this from day one.

[Keith H. Thompson]

is that a card goes into the back room, the door closes, and one, maybe two or three guys decide if it is an 8, 9 or 10. Talk about a brilliant concept. I'm still standing in awe.

[Gorditadogg]

Originally Posted by Snowman

I read it and I stand by what I said. Just because Lorewalker lists the cert numbers for 80 cards and claims the submission was for 80 cards doesn't mean that the submission was in fact 80 cards. We simply don't know. We can make assumptions like two of the same card having back to back certs are likely from the same submission or a run of cards within the same set are likely from one submission, but we don't ultimately know. And with this run of cert numbers, there are definitely some cards that could be from different submissions. In fact, I'd argue that the likelihood those 4 Jackie Robinson RCs and 3 Mickey Mantle RCs being in the same submission as the 1952 Topps commons is actually extremely low (near-zero). Those are almost certainly from at least two different submissions. Also, the submission could have ended with the baseball cards and the football, hockey, and basketball cards may have been from a different submission. Again, we don't know. They ran in different auctions. And just because many of the cards were sold on PWCC doesn't mean they were from the same submission either. PWCC was the largest consignment company in the hobby at the time.



And just because Lorewalker claimed that the other 20 certs were "Altered, Min Size or Miscut" does not mean that those certs were in fact deemed to have been altered, min size, or miscut. This is a prime example of what I'm constantly preaching about in this hobby. The telephone game of misinformation and malinformation is ridiculous around here. Lorewalker looks up the cert numbers on PSA website and can't find the cards listed, so he assumes they were rejected by PSA and then posts that as if it were a known fact. Then the lemmings read his post, and assume it must be true and they perpetuate it. But we know that PSA allowed submitters to put minimum grades on their submissions, which resulted in the same "We're sorry. The certification number provided was not found in the database." error listed on their website. Furthermore, we all know this to be the case. This shouldn't be news to anyone who reads these threads. Yet you guys just want to pretend like that's not an option, let alone the most likely explanation.



I think the most likely explanation of that run of certs is that they were from at least two submissions and that the invalid certs didn't meet the minimum grades listed on the submission forms.

So Lorewalker = Captspaulding = Rob Zombie = Chase Antley

This is a very educational thread. I will stay on the sidelines awhile to see if one of them responds.

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[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Very few people, I think, have the resources and staying power to actually litigate these claims. I think PSA just selectively pays out but the economics of letting card doctors submit outweigh the guarantee expense probably by a ton.

Most people don't realize the implications of what they're calling for. They also don't understand the scope of the problem. If PSA ends up having to pay out on even 1% of the claims that people are calling for, then PSA would just get rid of their guarantee program altogether, otherwise they'd be forced to close the doors. Then what? Where do we go from there? The other grading companies can't detect this stuff either. And they don't have guarantees anyhow.

[Gorditadogg]

Originally Posted by Snowman

Most people don't realize the implications of what they're calling for. They also don't understand the scope of the problem. If PSA ends up having to pay out on even 1% of the claims that people are calling for, then PSA would just get rid of their guarantee program altogether, otherwise they'd be forced to close the doors. Then what? Where do we go from there? The other grading companies can't detect this stuff either. And they don't have guarantees anyhow.

Yeah, but do you think if they repudiated their guarantee, they would still be able to stay in business? And it's a serious question, I want to know what you think. You're their customer, not me.

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[raulus]

Originally Posted by Gorditadogg

Yeah, but do you think if they repudiated their guarantee, they would still be able to stay in business? And it's a serious question, I want to know what you think. You're their customer, not me.

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SGC doesn’t seem to have suffered any negative repercussions when they quietly decided to drop their guarantee.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by raulus

SGC doesn’t seem to have suffered any negative repercussions when they quietly decided to drop their guarantee.

Nobody cares.

[raulus]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Nobody cares.

If they discover they have a doctored high value card in their collection, they will probably care a lot more.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by raulus

If they discover they have a doctored high value card in their collection, they will probably care a lot more.

Meh -- most would just flip it if it bothered them and not go to war with PSA even with the guarantee. And it wouldn't bother most.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Gorditadogg

Yeah, but do you think if they repudiated their guarantee, they would still be able to stay in business? And it's a serious question, I want to know what you think. You're their customer, not me.

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I think if PSA were to drop their guarantee tomorrow, it wouldn't affect them at all. Literally not one bit. And I'm usually hesitant about claims like that because I know how much a very small change in one variable can impact your bottom line (that's largely what statistical modeling is all about).

SGC dropped their guarantee and pentupled their business shortly after despite their biggest competitor proudly flaunting theirs. And buyers clearly don't care, as cards in SGC holders have set new records multiple times since then.

Ultimately, it's just not something the market cares enough about. They care more about hammer prices, accurate grades, and customer experience. Hence SGC has been chipping away at PSA's lead for the past few years.

Nobody looks at two of the same card, one in a PSA holder and one in an SGC holder and then says to themselves that they'd rather have the PSA because of the guarantee. They will buy whichever one looks better and is the better deal. Every time. And even if they have identical eye appeal and are the same price, they're still not using the guarantee as the tie breaker.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by raulus

If they discover they have a doctored high value card in their collection, they will probably care a lot more.

Not when they can just turn around and resell it though. That's why I was jokingly saying earlier for you to just sell me the Mays cheap and that I'd be happy to resell it for full market prices. These cards are EVERYWHERE. It's our entire hobby. It's not just a few cards here or there or even a few thousand cards or even a few hundred thousand cards. It's millions. Many millions. If you want to collect vintage cards then you can't escape it. Especially if you try to compete on the registry. Guys like Marshall Fogel's and Nat Turners' entire vintage collections are altered or improved in some way or another. And even the lower grade stuff gets improved as well. There is an army of people that compete for cards that have potential to be improved. A lot of the extreme outlier sales that seem outrageous or that people claim are shilled cards are actually cards that the buyers know they can get to bump 2 or more grades. I see it all the time. Someone will post a card on social media and everyone chimes in with "fake sale", then I look at the card and immediately spot why it sold for as much as it did. A lot of flaws can be fixed. Undetectably fixed. It is what it is.

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Nobody cares about SGC

Fixed it for ya!

[raulus]

It’s official now. They even kept the same cert.

[raulus]

Originally Posted by Snowman

Not when they can just turn around and resell it though. That's why I was jokingly saying earlier for you to just sell me the Mays cheap and that I'd be happy to resell it for full market prices.

I guess I’m not convinced that it would sell for full market price if it’s in the Tiffany Cards database. But perhaps I’m overestimating the number of people who are aware of the database.

Or I just figure that a number of collectors who are familiar with the database would be quick to jump on such a listing and inform the auction house that they’re trafficking in doctored cards, and demand that the listing either be removed or the doctoring be disclosed.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by raulus

I guess I’m not convinced that it would sell for full market price if it’s in the Tiffany Cards database. But perhaps I’m overestimating the number of people who are aware of the database.

Or I just figure that a number of collectors who are familiar with the database would be quick to jump on such a listing and inform the auction house that they’re trafficking in doctored cards, and demand that the listing either be removed or the doctoring be disclosed.

No disrespect to the great effort involved in that database, but I am guessing very few people check it before bidding on anything.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by raulus

I guess I’m not convinced that it would sell for full market price if it’s in the Tiffany Cards database. But perhaps I’m overestimating the number of people who are aware of the database.

Or I just figure that a number of collectors who are familiar with the database would be quick to jump on such a listing and inform the auction house that they’re trafficking in doctored cards, and demand that the listing either be removed or the doctoring be disclosed.

LOL - Nobody cares about that database. Even the majority of people who are aware of it still probably don't care.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by Snowman

Not when they can just turn around and resell it though. That's why I was jokingly saying earlier for you to just sell me the Mays cheap and that I'd be happy to resell it for full market prices. These cards are EVERYWHERE. It's our entire hobby. It's not just a few cards here or there or even a few thousand cards or even a few hundred thousand cards. It's millions. Many millions. If you want to collect vintage cards then you can't escape it. Especially if you try to compete on the registry. Guys like Marshall Fogel's and Nat Turners' entire vintage collections are altered or improved in some way or another. And even the lower grade stuff gets improved as well. There is an army of people that compete for cards that have potential to be improved. A lot of the extreme outlier sales that seem outrageous or that people claim are shilled cards are actually cards that the buyers know they can get to bump 2 or more grades. I see it all the time. Someone will post a card on social media and everyone chimes in with "fake sale", then I look at the card and immediately spot why it sold for as much as it did. A lot of flaws can be fixed. Undetectably fixed. It is what it is.

Truth….this is the reality of it. The truth can be painful but at least it’s honest.

[parkplace33]

Originally Posted by Snowman

LOL - Nobody cares about that database. Even the majority of people who are aware of it still probably don't care.

100 percent. Either they don’t know or don’t care. Most of the latter.

[TiffanyCards]

Originally Posted by Snowman

LOL - Nobody cares about that database. Even the majority of people who are aware of it still probably don't care.

I think collectors care. Flippers and card doctors do not.


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[Leon]

No doubt. Card doctors can go Eff themselves.... as far as flippers, no, they only care about $$ too

Originally Posted by TiffanyCards

I think collectors care. Flippers and card doctors do not.

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[bobbyw8469]

I don't think there are true flippers. Most flip to help offset the growing expense of their own stash. Being card rich and cash poor is no fun.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

I don't think there are true flippers. Most flip to help offset the growing expense of their own stash. Being card rich and cash poor is no fun.

Most of those guys are really running a small business. They just tell themselves and others it is a hobby to avoid paying taxes and running a legit business.

It is great the OP is getting some compensation for the altered card.

I love what Tiffany Cards and others do but I honestly can't imagine even 1/10 of 1% of collectors even know it exists. I don't know many PSA flip collectors but know many that collect PSA graded cards. I asked a few and nobody even checks the certs on PSAs website. I know I never have on a single PSA card I have purchased. Many people collect for fun and avoid all the BS to keep it fun for them. For some the BS is the fun part.

[tjisonline]

people really should check their SGC and PSA certs 1-2 times per year cards get deactivated out of the blue "months" after the purchase cert check. all it takes is someone to file a police report w/ that cert reported as stolen.

Originally Posted by bnorth

I don't know many PSA flip collectors but know many that collect PSA graded cards. I asked a few and nobody even checks the certs on PSAs website. I know I never have on a single PSA card I have purchased. Many people collect for fun and avoid all the BS to keep it fun for them. For some the BS is the fun part.

[TiffanyCards]

Originally Posted by bnorth

Most of those guys are really running a small business. They just tell themselves and others it is a hobby to avoid paying taxes and running a legit business.

It is great the OP is getting some compensation for the altered card.

I love what Tiffany Cards and others do but I honestly can't imagine even 1/10 of 1% of collectors even know it exists. I don't know many PSA flip collectors but know many that collect PSA graded cards. I asked a few and nobody even checks the certs on PSAs website. I know I never have on a single PSA card I have purchased. Many people collect for fun and avoid all the BS to keep it fun for them. For some the BS is the fun part.

Collecting for fun to avoid the BS is exactly what the card doctors prey upon. They don’t want you to check certs and hate the altered card database bc it’s an easy way to check.


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[Snowman]

Originally Posted by TiffanyCards

Collecting for fun to avoid the BS is exactly what the card doctors prey upon. They don’t want you to check certs and hate the altered card database bc it’s an easy way to check.

Is it though? Is it really an easy way to check? When I tried to use it a couple of months ago I let the spreadsheet load for about 10 minutes and gave up. Have you looked into using an actual database instead of an Excel file? Postgres SQL is pretty easy to use and it's open source.

Also, the victims of the publishing of these certs are almost entirely the end collectors like raulus, not the card doctors. As you stated earlier, the card doctors don't care at all. PSA determines which certs are valid, not some person on the internet who comes up with her own definition of what it means for a card to be "altered". You can flag a card as "altered" but it isn't going to affect the hammer price of an auction as long as the cert is still valid.

I've even offered to soak a card (which you consider to be an "alteration") and put a sticker on the back with your logo on it, and to advertise it as being in your database. I said I think I could even sell it for more than an average copy. I wasn't joking. Do I have your permission to make a sticker with your logo on it and to sell it advertising your database? I'll even send you the before and after pics of the soaked card. It'll be a fun experiment.

[TiffanyCards]

Originally Posted by Snowman

Is it though? Is it really an easy way to check? When I tried to use it a couple of months ago I let the spreadsheet load for about 10 minutes and gave up. Have you looked into using an actual database instead of an Excel file? Postgres SQL is pretty easy to use and it's open source.

Also, the victims of the publishing of these certs are almost entirely the end collectors like raulus, not the card doctors. As you stated earlier, the card doctors don't care at all. PSA determines which certs are valid, not some person on the internet who comes up with her own definition of what it means for a card to be "altered". You can flag a card as "altered" but it isn't going to affect the hammer price of an auction as long as the cert is still valid.

I've even offered to soak a card (which you consider to be an "alteration") and put a sticker on the back with your logo on it, and to advertise it as being in your database. I said I think I could even sell it for more than an average copy. I wasn't joking. Do I have your permission to make a sticker with your logo on it and to sell it advertising your database? I'll even send you the before and after pics of the soaked card. It'll be a fun experiment.

When I tried to have a conversation with you about it, didn’t you try to get me banned from this forum? No need for a sticker when you could just disclose it in your listing. Do you have cards that you sold on the altered card database? Do you disclose it in your listings? Why not?

Grading companies are more reactive than proactive when it comes to decertifying cards. Which is why the altered card database exists. It’s not perfect, but it is easy and free to use.


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[SyrNy1960]

Originally Posted by tiffanycards

grading companies are more reactive than proactive when it comes to decertifying cards. Which is why the altered card database exists. It’s not perfect, but it is easy and free to use.

+1 👍🏻💯

[G1911]

https://www.tiffanycards.com/altered...abase/baseball

It took 6 seconds to load for me. It seems to work fine for everyone who does not have a vested interest in defrauding people. I'm so upset this completely free resource put together to help people without profit takes a few seconds to load .

I know other collectors who use it too. Some of us shill for scamming and defrauding, a lot of us selectively support it when the right people do it, and some of us are against it but don't actually do anything about it but argue with shitposting scammers. Tiffany and BODA are pretty much the only people actually making any effort, to the collective gain of the rest of us that don't like the lies and frauds being perpetrated, to actually do something. It is a sad state that they are largely attacked because those efforts don't align with the fraud people want to commit or support.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by G1911

https://www.tiffanycards.com/altered...abase/baseball

It took 6 seconds to load for me. It seems to work fine for everyone who does not have a vested interest in defrauding people. I'm so upset this completely free resource put together to help people without profit takes a few seconds to load .

I know other collectors who use it too. Some of us shill for scamming and defrauding, a lot of us selectively support it when the right people do it, and some of us are against it but don't actually do anything about it but argue with shitposting scammers. Tiffany and BODA are pretty much the only people actually making any effort, to the collective gain of the rest of us that don't like the lies and frauds being perpetrated, to actually do something. It is a sad state that they are largely attacked because those efforts don't align with the fraud people want to commit or support.

Well stated, and thanks for posting the link.

It took about 11 seconds to load on my outdated cell phone. What a great resource… now that I have it, I’ll refer to it regularly and share with others.

Many thanks to Tiffany Cards and BODA. Really a shame that the people doing goodwill for the community (at their own time/expense) are shamed while profit-driven tone-deaf entities are defended and revered. “Professional graders” are no better at grading than most of the people here.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by TiffanyCards

When I tried to have a conversation with you about it, didn’t you try to get me banned from this forum? No need for a sticker when you could just disclose it in your listing. Do you have cards that you sold on the altered card database? Do you disclose it in your listings? Why not?

Grading companies are more reactive than proactive when it comes to decertifying cards. Which is why the altered card database exists. It’s not perfect, but it is easy and free to use.

If by "tried to have a conversation with you" you mean you dodged all my questions like you did again here, then yes, you "tried to have a conversation". So I guess I'll extend you the same courtesy.

I see you're back to making shit up though. At no point did I ever try to get you banned. But just run with that since facts don't matter to you.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Well stated, and thanks for posting the link.

It took about 11 seconds to load on my outdated cell phone. What a great resource… now that I have it, I’ll refer to it regularly and share with others.

Many thanks to Tiffany Cards and BODA. Really a shame that the people doing goodwill for the community (at their own time/expense) are shamed while profit-driven tone-deaf entities are defended and revered. “Professional graders” are no better at grading than most of the people here.

Lol. Ya, I'm calling bullshit on the 11 second load time.