2024 Baseball Hall of Fame Tracker

[eastonfalcon19]

Originally Posted by toppcat

Wagner was Mr. Meltdown in the post-season, just horrendous appearance-after-appearance. To me, that tilts him off the ballot.

Trevor Hoffman had a 9.00 ERA in the 98 world series with a blown game 3. Wagner should be in the HOF.

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by eastonfalcon19

Trevor Hoffman had a 9.00 ERA in the 98 world series with a blown game 3. Wagner should be in the HOF.

So your argument for Wagner to go into the HOF is that Hoffman sucked in 1998?

If it were up to me relievers wouldn't be allowed in the HOF, if they are such great pitchers why do they spend so much time on the bench?

Maybe Smoky Burgess should also go in due to his .288 career average as a pinch hitter?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by doug.goodman

So your argument for Wagner to go into the HOF is that Hoffman sucked in 1998?

If it were up to me relievers wouldn't be allowed in the HOF, if they are such great pitchers why do they spend so much time on the bench?

Maybe Smoky Burgess should also go in due to his .288 career average as a pinch hitter?

It's as good as any other argument for Wagner.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by doug.goodman

So your argument for Wagner to go into the HOF is that Hoffman sucked in 1998?

If it were up to me relievers wouldn't be allowed in the HOF, if they are such great pitchers why do they spend so much time on the bench?

Maybe Smoky Burgess should also go in due to his .288 career average as a pinch hitter?

This reflects my feelings exactly. I almost mentioned letting Pinch Hitters in, but refrained. Not a fan of "closers" getting into the Hall unless they were spectacular like Mariano or Gossage. I view it as a contrived/made-up position.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by perezfan

This reflects my feelings exactly. I almost mentioned letting Pinch Hitters in, but refrained. Not a fan of "closers" getting into the Hall unless they were spectacular like Mariano or Gossage. I view it as a contrived/made-up position.

My big issue is almost every, if not every, closer is a failed starter. What's more valuable a guy who can throw 6 -9 quality innings or a guy who can do it for 1- 2. A closer is worthless unless you are handing him leads.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

My big issue is almost every, if not every, closer is a failed starter. What's more valuable a guy who can throw 6 -9 quality innings or a guy who can do it for 1- 2. A close is worthless unless you are handing him leads.

Suppose a guy as effective as Rivera, but he was only brought in in the 6th or 7th inning and never closed. There is no way in hell he would make the Hall as a set up man even though his contribution would have been equal.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Suppose a guy as effective as Rivera, but he was only brought in in the 6th or 7th inning and never closed. There is no way in hell he would make the Hall as a set up man even though his contribution would have been equal.

I agree, and that helps my point.

I will mention that a guy I think is at least interesting as a discussion for the hall is Dan Quisenberry, and contrary to my point above, even including the minors, he only started one game in his career (though it's interesting to note that one game was a complete game!) so there is the occasional guy who is slated to be a reliever from day one and that's likely more common now than it was back then. Quis was a special case because every pitching coach in history hated his delivery.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

I agree, and that helps my point.

I will mention that a guy I think is at least interesting as a discussion for the hall is Dan Quisenberry, and contrary to my point above, even including the minors, he only started one game in his career (though it's interesting to note that one game was a complete game!) so there is the occasional guy who is slated to be a reliever from day one and that's likely more common now than it was back then. Quis was a special case because every pitching coach in history hated his delivery.

He's still a failed starter because if anyone thought he was good enough to start, they would have tried him there first.

[John1941]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

I agree, and that helps my point.

I will mention that a guy I think is at least interesting as a discussion for the hall is Dan Quisenberry, and contrary to my point above, even including the minors, he only started one game in his career (though it's interesting to note that one game was a complete game!) so there is the occasional guy who is slated to be a reliever from day one and that's likely more common now than it was back then. Quis was a special case because every pitching coach in history hated his delivery.

As you can probably tell by my avatar I would not be averse to Quis being elected.

His peak was short but it sure was spectacular. If Bruce Sutter is in, why not Quis? (I know two wrongs don't make a right, but I'm biased so I don't really care in this case...) I'm a numbers guy, not typically disposed to HOF arguments that rest on intangibles, but he was an amazing guy as well as an amazing pitcher.

[packs]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

I agree, and that helps my point.

I will mention that a guy I think is at least interesting as a discussion for the hall is Dan Quisenberry, and contrary to my point above, even including the minors, he only started one game in his career (though it's interesting to note that one game was a complete game!) so there is the occasional guy who is slated to be a reliever from day one and that's likely more common now than it was back then. Quis was a special case because every pitching coach in history hated his delivery.

Isn't this Hoyt Wilhelm? Wilhelm is one of the most underrated players in the HOF. He did save 228 games, but he pitched in over 1,000 games and clearly wasn't only in the game to notch the 9th.

He's also a challenge to this failed starter hypothesis. The one season they took the leash off Wilhelm led the league in ERA as a starter.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by eastonfalcon19

Trevor Hoffman had a 9.00 ERA in the 98 world series with a blown game 3. Wagner should be in the HOF.

Hoffman has a 3.46 post season ERA. Wagner’s is 10.03. Wagner’s is 289% worse.