1921 Herpolsheimers graded w/o mark

[Exhibitman]

Seems to me that if you haven't held the cards in hand and gone over them, you have no real basis to opine on their authenticity. had a situation recently where I purchased a rare PCL card that looked wrong when I got it in hand and was able to pin down its counterfeit origins (with the help of Mark M.) and get a refund. I could not tell just seeing pictures, I had to have it in hand and compare it with others to see what was wrong with it. That isn't what I am reading here. "Someone told me" is not only hearsay, it would be laughed out of court as the basis for expert opinion. Multiple experts with hands-on experience have seen these cards and are confident they are genuine. That, to me, is far more persuasive than hearsay. I Absent that hands-on experience, arguing these cards are fakes seems pointless and, frankly, unfair to Al and everyone else who put in the work behind this auction. Unless there is something more, "someone told me they are fakes" is a POV that adds nothing substantive to the discussion.

[Steve D]

Here's an ad from the June 1, 1921 Grand Rapids Press (I found it on Genealogybank.com):

The cards in the ad are Cobb, Ruth, Speaker, Hornsby, Sisler, Johnson and Wally Schang.

Steve

[slidekellyslide]

Here is a postcard of Herpolsheimer’s from around 1910. No address on the front or back of the card. They simply felt they didn’t need to put their address out there on advertisements.

[Brian Van Horn]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Seems to me that if you haven't held the cards in hand and gone over them, you have no real basis to opine on their authenticity. had a situation recently where I purchased a rare PCL card that looked wrong when I got it in hand and was able to pin down its counterfeit origins (with the help of Mark M.) and get a refund. I could not tell just seeing pictures, I had to have it in hand and compare it with others to see what was wrong with it. That isn't what I am reading here. "Someone told me" is not only hearsay, it would be laughed out of court as the basis for expert opinion. Multiple experts with hands-on experience have seen these cards and are confident they are genuine. That, to me, is far more persuasive than hearsay. I Absent that hands-on experience, arguing these cards are fakes seems pointless and, frankly, unfair to Al and everyone else who put in the work behind this auction. Unless there is something more, "someone told me they are fakes" is a POV that adds nothing substantive to the discussion.

Adam,

I did hold some of the cards in my hands at Robert Morris in May 1999. With the marking of $1.00 on some of the cards, I still considered a purchase.

[Steve D]

Another ad from the Apr 15, 1921 Grand Rapids Press:

Steve

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Steve D

Another ad from the Apr 15, 1921 Grand Rapids Press:

Steve

The primary sources from 1921 are probably fakes planted by aliens or something

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by Steve D

Here's an ad from the June 1, 1921 Grand Rapids Press (I found it on Genealogybank.com):

The cards in the ad are Cobb, Ruth, Speaker, Hornsby, Sisler, Johnson and Wally Schang.

Steve

No address Steve, must be fake.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by G1911

The primary sources from 1921 are probably fakes planted by aliens or something

Now that is just silly. Everyone knows aliens have not arrived on Earth yet. My inside source says it is a family of Bigfoot operating out of Oregon. Supposedly they have put enough high end counterfeit cards into the hobby they would sink a large boat.

[Brian Van Horn]

LOL. I love the last three responses. Keep up the satire!

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Brian Van Horn

LOL. I love the last three responses. Keep up the satire!

Doesn’t primary source evidence contradict your claims?

[molenick]

Originally Posted by Brian Van Horn

LOL. I love the last three responses. Keep up the satire!

So, despite the fact that someone found an ad from Herpolsheimer's from 1921 for the exact set of cards that have been labeled by PSA as 1921 Herpolsheimer's you still think the cards are fake because a dealer in 1999 said the cards were from the 1970s?

And that even if the dealer was somehow correct about those cards, you think that the cards discovered in 2019 and the PSA 6 Collins are also fake, even though those were not among the group of cards that the dealer said were fake?

[hcv123]

GREAT detective work!

If the debate doesn't end here, I'm just not sure what I'm left to think Brian. I don't know you well. We've done a couple of successful transactions and had some good communication. After seeing the original advertisements from 1921 for the Herpolsheimer cards, is it still your opinion they are not legit?

[JollyElm]

Question:
Is the claim that none of these cards ever existed, or is the claim that they do/did exist, but the ones being discussed are themselves fake?

It's an important logical point for anyone like me who has come to the thread in media res.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by JollyElm

Question:
Is the claim that none of these cards ever existed, or is the claim that they do/did exist, but the ones being discussed are themselves fake?

It's an important logical point for anyone like me who has come to the thread in media res.

His claim in this thread was that every and all 1921 Herpolsheimers are fakes (including the cards found after his alleged conversation with the unnamed dealer whose opinion is apparently the arbiter of all truth).

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by Brian Van Horn

LOL. I love the last three responses. Keep up the satire!

All due respect Brian, that ad that Steve provided, thank you Steve, to me supports authenticity, unless of course the ad is fake. And while I'm not well versed on printing techniques and it may not be difficult but how does one fake bleed through on cards? The other thing that strikes me is the same "second floor" mention in both the ad and the card backs, pretty consistent imo.
Now of course the forger of the 70's may have found this ad and chosen it as a template for his craft but I find that implausible, I don't know what a forged Herp common was worth in the 70's but I would posit the "great forgery" wasn't very profitable at the time.

[Brian Van Horn]

Originally Posted by Steve D

Another ad from the Apr 15, 1921 Grand Rapids Press:

Steve

https://www.genealogybank.com/doc/ne...50D737BB8BF039

From Genealogy Bank

We're sorry, we can't find this page.
Still have questions? Please visit our FAQ to learn more.

[Steve D]

All this just reminds me of the story of one of the five 1913 Liberty Nickels.

Back in 1962, the owner of the coin, George Walton, was killed in a car crash. The coin was later consigned to Stacks Auctions, one of the leading numismatic auction houses of the day (and still today). Stacks misidentified the coin as a counterfeit, and returned it to the Walton family.

Then in 2003, the family rediscovered the coin, and took it to the American Numismatics Association convention that year in Baltimore. It was examined by a panel of experts, and found to actually be authentic.

It subsequently sold for $4.2M last year.

So, the point is, even "experts" do make mistakes; and authentic items are wrongly deemed fake, or otherwise not authentic.

Steve

[robertsmithnocure]

I have gone down the Herporlsheimer rabbit hole and I find it very hard to believe that they are not real. Some of the most knowledgeable collectors and dealers have concluded that they are real.

Dan McKee
Leon Luckey
Rhett Yeakley
Kevin Struss
Frank Ward
Brian Weisner
Todd Schultz
Al Cristafulli
Jeff Lichtman
Howard Chasser

I respect Brian Van Horn's opinion, but I find it hard to believe that all of these experts are wrong.

[Brian Van Horn]

Originally Posted by Steve D

All this just reminds me of the story of one of the five 1913 Liberty Nickels.

Back in 1962, the owner of the coin, George Walton, was killed in a car crash. The coin was later consigned to Stacks Auctions, one of the leading numismatic auction houses of the day (and still today). Stacks misidentified the coin as a counterfeit, and returned it to the Walton family.

Then in 2003, the family rediscovered the coin, and took it to the American Numismatics Association convention that year in Baltimore. It was examined by a panel of experts, and found to actually be authentic.

It subsequently sold for $4.2M last year.

So, the point is, even "experts" do make mistakes; and authentic items are wrongly deemed fake, or otherwise not authentic.

Steve

If I may trouble you for a response to my PM after my last post.

[Brian Van Horn]

I want to thank Steve for the links and I apologize, but there is still one issue. These ads show the fronts of the cards. They could be E121s. You would think if they are offering the cards, they would their ad on the back.

[robertsmithnocure]

Originally Posted by Brian Van Horn

I want to thank Steve for the links and I apologize, but there is still one issue. These ads show the fronts of the cards. They could be E121s. You would think if they are offering the cards, they would their ad on the back.

Really? This is getting absurd. Can you not just admit that you are wrong?

Do you really think that Hepolsheimer is advertising American Caramel cards, without even naming them?

The 1916 ad does not picture their backs either.

[Steve D]

Originally Posted by Brian Van Horn

I want to thank Steve for the links and I apologize, but there is still one issue. These ads show the fronts of the cards. They could be E121s. You would think if they are offering the cards, they would their ad on the back.

True, but if you read the top paragraph on the bottom-right of the Apr 15, 1921 ad, it says the following:

"...we have arranged with a prominent advertising concern to make up for us this set of photographs of baseball players in action." That, to me, indicates that they had sets specially made for them (Herpolsheimer's Dept Store). It would be logical that if the cards were made specially for them, the cards would have their name on them, especially if the cards were being done by an "advertising" company.

Steve

[nolemmings]

Originally Posted by Steve D

True, but if you read the top paragraph on the bottom-right of the Apr 15, 1921 ad, it says the following:

"...we have arranged with a prominent advertising concern to make up for us this set of photographs of baseball players in action." That, to me, indicates that they had sets specially made for them (Herpolsheimer's Dept Store). It would be logical that if the cards were made specially for them, the cards would have their name on them, especially if the cards were being done by an "advertising company".

Steve

Thanks so much for finding them Steve, and for pointing me to that site. I was able to finally find another 1916 advertiser of Mendelsohn cards using that site. I am happy to be wrong about my earlier assessment that an ad would not likely appear. Muchas gracias.

[G1911]

This is some desperate straw clutching. This narrative was illogical and nonsensical from the start, it is indefensible now. This is absurdly stupid lol

[Brian Van Horn]

Originally Posted by Steve D

True, but if you read the top paragraph on the bottom-right of the Apr 15, 1921 ad, it says the following:

"...we have arranged with a prominent advertising concern to make up for us this set of photographs of baseball players in action." That, to me, indicates that they had sets specially made for them (Herpolsheimer's Dept Store). It would be logical that if the cards were made specially for them, the cards would have their name on them.

Steve

Steve,

It's a possibility, but more likely the two variables of the 1921 series of eighty were sold on site. Why miss an advertising opportunity in the second link after the season began?

[robertsmithnocure]

Originally Posted by G1911

This is some desperate straw clutching. This narrative was illogical and nonsensical from the start, it is indefensible now. This is absurdly stupid lol

I totally agree. This an absolutely crazy thread.

[Steve D]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

Thanks so much for finding them Steve, and for pointing me to that site. I was able to finally find another 1916 advertiser of Mendelsohn cards using that site. I am happy to be wrong about my earlier assessment that an ad would not likely appear. Muchas gracias.

That's good to hear Todd; thank you for letting me know.

Steve

[ElCabron]

Brian,

I have done business with you for decades. I may have missed the name of the super honest dealer that convinced you these were fake 25 years ago, but I’m also on the bandwagon with every single other collector and dealer who are trying to tell you these are real. I am as skeptical as they come. If you don’t believe that, search my name on this forum. I would respectfully like to suggest to you that I am as honest as the guy from 25 years ago, and if you don’t believe I am, please do not bid in my auctions in the future.

You are wrong here. We are all wrong sometimes. At this point, you’re making yourself look bad. You’d be wise to simply admit it and move on.

I think everyone can appreciate where you’re coming from. Fakes should ALWAYS be called out as fakes. But once the evidence overwhelmingly shows the they’re real, you have to adjust and accept they’re real. I hope you’ll consider this.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Steve D

Here's an ad from the June 1, 1921 Grand Rapids Press (I found it on Genealogybank.com):

The cards in the ad are Cobb, Ruth, Speaker, Hornsby, Sisler, Johnson and Wally Schang.

Steve

Clearly a clever attempt by the counterfeiter to change the historical record to make the cards appear legitimate...

(please note the lack of an availble sarcasm font)

[Brian Van Horn]

Originally Posted by aquarian sports cards

clearly a clever attempt by the counterfeiter to change the historical record to make the cards appear legitimate...

(please note the lack of an availble sarcasm font)

lol!

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Brian Van Horn

lol!

This is the only guy here who shouldn't be laughing

[Brian Van Horn]

Originally Posted by G1911

This is the only guy here who shouldn't be laughing

I respectfully disagree.

[bgar3]

Steve, that is a truly great job. Well done.

[calvindog]

Not that I had any doubt they were real, but Steve’s find ends any debate if there was a legitimate one. Just spending 10 seconds with a raw Herpo dispels any doubt.

My favorite part of this thread is Ryan setting up the challenge of whether he is more honest than the unnamed, unknown old time dealer from decades ago — who apparently has now been revealed to be either dishonest or simply wrong. I’ve wrestled with this for a bit but I am prepared to endorse Ryan over this unnamed, unknown dealer. I hope you’ll all join me.

[darwinbulldog]

I think you just have to recognize it as a religious belief at this point if anyone is still maintaining they're fake.

[Brian Van Horn]

Originally Posted by darwinbulldog

I think you just have to recognize it as a religious belief at this point if anyone is still maintaining they're fake.

Yeah, an Agnostic belief, but I did date the minister's daughter. We started dating on June 8, 2006. I would have started to date her two days earlier, but something about 6-6-6.

[rhettyeakley]

I had been shown one of those ads years ago by Zach Rice (but stupidly hadn't saved the image the last time me and Brian went at this on the forum here) so thanks for showing those Steve...that should end the debate!

Brian is a good guy but also VERY WRONG!

Debate over.

**NEW DEBATE**

Why are they so rare compared to their 1916 counterparts!?!

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by hcv123

GREAT detective work!

If the debate doesn't end here, I'm just not sure what I'm left to think.

+1

I’m not a “card guy” but I was alerted to Steve’s find in today’s email from LOTG. Speaking of love…I love it when I or anyone else can solve a mystery. For me, the history and stories of what we collect is what it’s all about.

[BRoberts]

Originally Posted by rhettyeakley

**NEW DEBATE**

Why are they so rare compared to their 1916 counterparts!?!

And why isn't Paul Waner in the set?

[tiger8mush]

For anyone calling them "fakes" or "reprints", is the argument that:
a) the entire card was printed in the 1970s-1990s? Or that ...
b) an authentic 1921 blank back card (W575 for example) was used and a fake Herp back was printed onto an original blank back in the 1970s-1990s?

[h2oya311]

Originally Posted by BRoberts

And why isn't Paul Waner in the set?

OMG, mic drop!

[Brian Van Horn]

Originally Posted by rhettyeakley

I had been shown one of those ads years ago by Zach Rice (but stupidly hadn't saved the image the last time me and Brian went at this on the forum here) so thanks for showing those Steve...that should end the debate!

Brian is a good guy but also VERY WRONG!

Debate over.

**NEW DEBATE**

Why are they so rare compared to their 1916 counterparts!?!

Nope.

[rhettyeakley]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Not that I had any doubt they were real, but Steve’s find ends any debate if there was a legitimate one. Just spending 10 seconds with a raw Herpo dispels any doubt.

My favorite part of this thread is Ryan setting up the challenge of whether he is more honest than the unnamed, unknown old time dealer from decades ago — who apparently has now been revealed to be either dishonest or simply wrong. I’ve wrestled with this for a bit but I am prepared to endorse Ryan over this unnamed, unknown dealer. I hope you’ll all join me.

It is like the Net54 version of a Dance Off or Dance Fight!

Think... "Breakin' 2: Electric Boogaloo" Net54 Edition

[rhettyeakley]

Originally Posted by Brian Van Horn

Nope.

Brian is holding out for...
An image of a store employee...holding his ID to the camera in one hand...holding the cards in the other hand...passing the cards to a young man...young man in a Herpolsheimers & Co suit...with price tag of $2.50...geostamped to the Grand Rapids address...holding that days newspaper from 1921.

get going Net54 sleuths!!!

[autograf]

Great work from Steve confirming what the reasonable, rational people in this thread already knew.......

[Brian Van Horn]

Originally Posted by rhettyeakley

Brian is holding out for...
An image of a store employee...holding his ID to the camera in one hand...holding the cards in the other hand...passing the cards to a young man...young man in a Herpolsheimers & Co suit...with price tag of $2.50...geostamped to the Grand Rapids address...holding that days newspaper from 1921.

get going Net54 sleuths!!!

Thank you, Rhett my friend. You are good for my sense of humor while I battle a cold.

[brianp-beme]

Originally Posted by rhettyeakley

**NEW DEBATE**

Why are they so rare compared to their 1916 counterparts!?!

My guess is that the boy suits in 1921 were so ugly/overpriced that most parents could easily override the kid's desperate pleas to purchase it.

Brian (the Brian that is firmly on the 'cards are real' side)

[Snapolit1]

I think the threadbare to non-existent case for counterfeit just took another hit.

https://loveofthegameauctions.com/an...ST_EMAIL_ID%5D

[Snapolit1]

What I'm not getting here, is obviously the issue existed, as per contemperanous advertisements.

So even if the dude was right that he handed Brian a stack of counterfeit cards, which none of us can prove or disprove at this point, where is the proof that these are the same cards that have now come to market? Zero, none, zip, nada.

[Brian Van Horn]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

I think the threadbare to non-existent case for counterfeit just took another hit.

https://loveofthegameauctions.com/an...ST_EMAIL_ID%5D

The conclusion is that Herpolsheimer offered 1921 E121s at their store. What is not included is the back of the card which is interesting. Understood that the first ad wouldn't include the back because negotiations were probably under way. The second one, however, should leave you asking if this back was produced why didn't Herpolsheimer ever put in their advertisement? A back mentioning Herpolsheimer in a Herpolsheimer advertisement. Self promotion in an advertisement. What a concept? Epiphany!!!!