1921 Herpolsheimers graded w/o mark

[nolemmings]

Originally Posted by Brian Van Horn

The one other detail left out that I am amused by is that 1 Monroe is left off the back of the card for the address. I know the store was popular in Grand Rapids, Michigan, but.......

Herpolsheimer did not have its address on the 1916 cards either. Then again, neither did department stores Block & Kuhl, Burgess-Nash, Gimbels and Everybody's. Really irrelevant.

Todd—Has anyone ever come across a newspaper article advertising these cards? I know articles were found for various M101-4/5 backs and, if found, that would certainly clear things up.

Jay, I have not seen much of anything for Herpolsheimer's store in 1921, but that isn't surprising. They only had one or two ads that I've seen from 1916. Also, the department store ads from 1916 were all the marketing idea of Felix Mendelsohn, who no doubt created the format. Several of these department stores used virtually identical ads and verbiage. As I mentioned before, it looks like Herpolsheimer's was the lone department store advertising these cards in 1921.

PAT. The articles you posted are of a different Herpolsheimer in Nebraska-- a brother of the patriarch from Grand Rapids.

Here is the ad I found for the 1916 cards, a full page from the Grand Rapids Herald. Note there does not appear to be a store address-- kind of a shame with all those bargain prices that they forgot to tell people how to find the store.

[Brian Van Horn]

nolemmings:

"Herpolsheimer did not have its address on the 1916 cards either. Then again, neither did department stores Block & Kuhl, Burgess-Nash, Gimbels and Everybody's. Really irrelevant, but if it amuses you, well, different strokes I guess."

LOL!

Reference points attached. Even though Herpolsheimer's was popular, out of courtesy, like Holsum Bread, you would have your address not just your floor.

We are not talking about the M101-4/5 versions.

[nolemmings]

Brian, your arguments are borderline ridiculous. Some unknown dealer a quarter century ago with an honest demeanor told you that these were fake, and the design in your view is inferior, and the lack of a street address on an advertiser's card points to a fake, even when that advertiser is shown to not use its address in advertising for years. I can just imagine the folks at Herpolsheimer saying "we need the street address on our cards-- we made that horrible mistake five years ago of not including it so let's make sure people know where we are". Seriously? Did you ever think maybe its just a matter of preference? Why no address for Clark's, Haffner's and Gassler's? Fakes?

Have you held one of these in your hand? The dot patterns, fonts, card stock, toning, etc. all exemplify the "real" cards from 1920/21. So you do think they are fake altogether or just fake backs on real fronts?

As I said, you can discount people's opinions as you see fit, mine especially. But from that old thread we can see that Dan McKee, Frank Ward, and several other very well respected collectors here have held them and concluded they are real. I really think that your casting aspersions on an ongoing auction based on such flimsy "evidence" does no good, and that's putting it lightly.

Originally Posted by Brian Van Horn

nolemmings:

"Herpolsheimer did not have its address on the 1916 cards either. Then again, neither did department stores Block & Kuhl, Burgess-Nash, Gimbels and Everybody's. Really irrelevant, but if it amuses you, well, different strokes I guess."

LOL!

Reference points attached. Even though Herpolsheimer's was popular, out of courtesy, like Holsum Bread, you would have your address not just your floor.

We are not talking about the M101-4/5 versions.

[Brian Van Horn]

I have held them. The guy who originally had them at a show indicated the prices on the back were because the cards weren't original. If you can't accept honesty, I can't help. No offense. They are fakes.

[hcv123]

The attached card will be offered in the next Memory Lane auction. I'm not super familiar with the history on these, but this example was a lone example from a large eclectic collection. I see no evidence of any kind of erasure. It was originally mislabeled by PSA without the Herpolsheimer designation and was recently corrected. If there was only a single Collins example from the original find and a single example from the recent find, then this was not from either.

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by hcv123

The attached card will be offered in the next Memory Lane auction. I'm not super familiar with the history on these, but this example was a lone example from a large eclectic collection. I see no evidence of any kind of erasure. It was originally mislabeled by PSA without the Herpolsheimer designation and was recently corrected. If there was only a single Collins example from the original find and a single example from the recent find, then this was not from either.

Now there's a plot twist.

[Brian Van Horn]

Howard,

The best to you with the auction. Obviously I will not be bidding.

Happy Thanksgiving,

Brian Van Horn

[nolemmings]

Originally Posted by hcv123

The attached card will be offered in the next Memory Lane auction. I'm not super familiar with the history on these, but this example was a lone example from a large eclectic collection. I see no evidence of any kind of erasure. It was originally mislabeled by PSA without the Herpolsheimer designation and was recently corrected. If there was only a single Collins example from the original find and a single example from the recent find, then this was not from either.

Howard, I would be curious to know what you can tell us about the date you acquired this and whether it was already graded. The Herps Collins sold by Legendary looks very much like the card you show-- on the front anyway (big writing on the back).

[hcv123]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

Howard, I would be curious to know what you can tell us about the date you acquired this and whether it was already graded. The Herps Collins sold by Legendary looks very much like the card you show-- on the front anyway (big writing on the back).

I got the card in September. It was in the holder I pictured - incorrectly labeled as an E121 and not identified as a Herpolsheimer. I had PSA correct it (I don't think I have a pic of the corrected holder). I am not sure how long the collector I got it from had it. VCP does show a sale of it on June 7, 2006 by "ManontheRock".

Can you post a pic of the Legendary example to compare? Or email to me at hcv123@att.net if you aren't comfortable posting.

[Exhibitman]

Seems to me that if you haven't held the cards in hand and gone over them, you have no real basis to opine on their authenticity. had a situation recently where I purchased a rare PCL card that looked wrong when I got it in hand and was able to pin down its counterfeit origins (with the help of Mark M.) and get a refund. I could not tell just seeing pictures, I had to have it in hand and compare it with others to see what was wrong with it. That isn't what I am reading here. "Someone told me" is not only hearsay, it would be laughed out of court as the basis for expert opinion. Multiple experts with hands-on experience have seen these cards and are confident they are genuine. That, to me, is far more persuasive than hearsay. I Absent that hands-on experience, arguing these cards are fakes seems pointless and, frankly, unfair to Al and everyone else who put in the work behind this auction. Unless there is something more, "someone told me they are fakes" is a POV that adds nothing substantive to the discussion.

[molenick]

Originally Posted by Brian Van Horn

I have held them. The guy who originally had them at a show indicated the prices on the back were because the cards weren't original. If you can't accept honesty, I can't help. No offense. They are fakes.

Even if those cards were fake, I am not clear how this impacts the separate group of cards found 20 years later. I would think that if someone created a fake batch of cards, they would not decide to introduce them to the public in two groupings that far apart.

I believe you are being honest in reporting what the dealer said, but I am unclear what "the prices on the back were because the cards weren't original" means.

Was it that he (the dealer) wrote the prices on the back because he thought the cards weren't original (so it didn't matter that he wrote on the cards, since they were fake anyway)?

Was it that the prices were low because the cards were not original?

Or was it that when he came into possession of the cards they already had prices on the back, which he took as an indicator that the cards were not original?

[Brian Van Horn]

Originally Posted by molenick

Even if those cards were fake, I am not clear how this impacts the separate group of cards found 20 years later. I would think that if someone created a fake batch of cards, they would not decide to introduce them to the public in two groupings that far apart.

I believe you are being honest in reporting what the dealer said, but I am unclear what "the prices on the back were because the cards weren't original" means.

Was it that he (the dealer) wrote the prices on the back because he thought the cards weren't original (so it didn't matter that he wrote on the cards, since they were fake anyway)?

Was it that the prices were low because the cards were not original?

Or was it that when he came into possession of the cards they already had prices on the back, which he took as an indicator that the cards were not original?

Michael,

I have actually been waiting for that question to come up. If the first group was a bunch of fakes what would have kept the second one from being the same minus the dollar asking prices on the back? 15 years after the first group was offered for auctions on eBay and twenty years after the dealer at the Robert Morris show there was news of another group (the current ones) in 2019. At this pace a third group should be printed up by 2034, but by a different person or persons. Have to allow for mortality. Looking forward to that discussion. Also, I have to wonder if by that point Artificial Intelligence will play a hand in the fraud. Oh, but that is just theory by this turkey 🦃 on Thanksgiving.

[nolemmings]

Originally Posted by Brian Van Horn

Michael,

I have actually been waiting for that question to come up. If the first group was a bunch of fakes what would have kept the second one from being the same minus the dollar asking prices on the back? 15 years after the first group was offered for auctions on eBay and twenty years after the dealer at the Robert Morris show there was news of another group (the current ones) in 2019. At this pace a third group should be printed up by 2034, but by a different person or persons. Have to allow for mortality. Looking forward to that discussion. Also, I have to wonder if by that point Artificial Intelligence will play a hand in the fraud. Oh, but that is just theory by this turkey 🦃 on Thanksgiving.

You were waiting for the question to come up but you didn't answer it. Nor did you answer my question as to whether these cards are totally fake or just the backs. Given your keen eye when you handled it/them and the complete honesty shown to you by this dealer, I would appreciate your responses.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

Herpolsheimer did not have its address on the 1916 cards either. Then again, neither did department stores Block & Kuhl, Burgess-Nash, Gimbels and Everybody's. Really irrelevant.



Jay, I have not seen much of anything for Herpolsheimer's store in 1921, but that isn't surprising. They only had one or two ads that I've seen from 1916. Also, the department store ads from 1916 were all the marketing idea of Felix Mendelsohn, who no doubt created the format. Several of these department stores used virtually identical ads and verbiage. As I mentioned before, it looks like Herpolsheimer's was the lone department store advertising these cards in 1921.

PAT. The articles you posted are of a different Herpolsheimer in Nebraska-- a brother of the patriarch from Grand Rapids.

Here is the ad I found for the 1916 cards, a full page from the Grand Rapids Herald. Note there does not appear to be a store address-- kind of a shame with all those bargain prices that they forgot to tell people how to find the store.

Yes I know that Todd. He sold his interest in the Grand Rapids store to his brother and opened the store in Lincoln.

[Brian Van Horn]

Patrick,

Thank you for the advertisement from 1916 and Happy Thanksgiving.

Brian Van Horn

[dariushou]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

Herpolsheimer did not have its address on the 1916 cards either. Then again, neither did department stores Block & Kuhl, Burgess-Nash, Gimbels and Everybody's. Really irrelevant.



Jay, I have not seen much of anything for Herpolsheimer's store in 1921, but that isn't surprising. They only had one or two ads that I've seen from 1916. Also, the department store ads from 1916 were all the marketing idea of Felix Mendelsohn, who no doubt created the format. Several of these department stores used virtually identical ads and verbiage. As I mentioned before, it looks like Herpolsheimer's was the lone department store advertising these cards in 1921.

PAT. The articles you posted are of a different Herpolsheimer in Nebraska-- a brother of the patriarch from Grand Rapids.

Here is the ad I found for the 1916 cards, a full page from the Grand Rapids Herald. Note there does not appear to be a store address-- kind of a shame with all those bargain prices that they forgot to tell people how to find the store.

Has there been an advertisement found for the 1921 Herpolsheimer cards? It would seem that the company would have advertised it like they did in 1916. Also, have advertisements been found for all other issues of that era or is it very common not to advertise the cards. I will admit I know very little about cards of that era and even less so about how cards were advertised. Also, i'm no expert on newspaper research either.

Whatever the case may be, I have no skin in this game, but was curious about those questions. Having no advertisement does not mean the cards are fake, but it does raise the question as to why not, especially sine they did in 1916. I'm not saying they are fake so please don't bite my head off.

[nolemmings]

Originally Posted by dariushou

Has there been an advertisement found for the 1921 Herpolsheimer cards? It would seem that the company would have advertised it like they did in 1916. Also, have advertisements been found for all other issues of that era or is it very common not to advertise the cards. I will admit I know very little about cards of that era and even less so about how cards were advertised. Also, i'm no expert on newspaper research either.

Whatever the case may be, I have no skin in this game, but was curious about those questions. Having no advertisement does not mean the cards are fake, but it does raise the question as to why not, especially sine they did in 1916. I'm not saying they are fake so please don't bite my head off.

I am unaware of any advertising for the cards, but that is not surprising for the following reasons:

1. I believe it is the exception rather than the rule for baseball cards being advertised in 1920's newspapers.

2. It can be real spotty finding digitalized newspapers for some areas, period. I don’t recall how I came upon the ad from 1916, but notice that is from the Grand Rapids Herald. It is difficult to find any copies of that paper from those years. No doubt the digital archives will improve and be coordinated over time, but for now it can be real hit and miss. As an odd example, I have looked for advertising for Weil Baking in 1916, 1917 and 1921 (they issued the Holsum Bread cards), and can’t even seem to find New Orleans papers, much less relevant information.

3. The advertising from 1916 was all the brainchild of Felix Mendelsohn, who was behind the m101-4/5 style cards. While he might have had some connection to the 1921 cards, he was not the publisher.

4. As noted earlier, there was tumult in the Herpolsheimer family at this time, resulting from the deaths of two top company leaders in 1920. Their advertising and marketing plans may not have been high priority and/or deciding who made those plans may have been internally disputed or unorganized.

[RCMcKenzie]

I wish people had debated the bsf like this. I'm bidding on the LOTG cards fwiw.

[Brian Van Horn]

Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie

I wish people had debated the bsf like this. I'm bidding on the LOTG cards fwiw.

I wish you the best.

[RCMcKenzie]

Hey,, thanks, Brian. I'm looking at the Charlie Deal at $160 and thinking about kicking it a buck.

What are your thoughts on the bsf? I know my thoughts were "that's not believable." and others were like, "prove it." and I was like "I can't prove it, but I don't buy the whole enchilada. Enjoy them, gang.", so I get where you are coming from.

When they get ready for the big reveal in 2034, I would say go for bigger names in higher grades.

[Brian Van Horn]

I was thinking about Davenport the same way I thought about and bid on Baker in 2004. To have a card example from a fraudulent set. Not going to do it.

[CW]

Originally Posted by dariushou

Has there been an advertisement found for the 1921 Herpolsheimer cards?

One might consider the baseball card as the advertisement itself.

[Brian Van Horn]

Gentlemen,

I apologize, but I forgot about my post in this on December 24, 2004 at 7:47 a.m. I forgot, as noted in the post, the dealer indicated to me the cards were produced in the 1970's. Here is the post of messages:

https://www.net54baseball.com/showth...=Herpolsheimer