Roger Clemens - Where does he rank?

[Smarti5051]

Originally Posted by profholt82

How can anyone rate a cheater like him among the all-time greats of the game?

So, if one player "cheats" he is disqualified from consideration as a GOAT? OK, if that is the framework for discussion, then Babe Ruth also cannot be considered, right? He was caught using a corked bat in 1923 (and presumably used one more than once). Willie Mays frequently used amphetamines. Foreign substances on balls used by several pitchers have been an accepted cat-and-mouse game for decades with little stigma attached to pitchers that used them.

It sure feels like we are drawing some pretty wavy lines on what is acceptable and unacceptable "cheating" for players on field conduct. I can't help but also notice those lines are heavily influenced by how the media feels those players treated them. Bonds and Clemens were not fun interviews and surly, so the media decided to make steroids the line that cannot be crossed. And, many players not friendly to the media were heavily vetted for a connection to steroids for #cancelling.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Something tells me if David Ortiz had been a surly bastard, we'd be looking at a very different outcome. And how sure are we Bagwell and Piazza didn't use? I-rod?

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Something tells me if David Ortiz had been a surly bastard, we'd be looking at a very different outcome. And how sure are we Bagwell and Piazza didn't use? I-rod?

Yes. I’m fine with punishing them for breaking the rule or forgiving it and letting them in, but this current state where Ortiz is forgiven and his use memory holed while Clemens is cancelled and Bonds got straight blackballed out of baseball is absurd.

[steve B]

This whole thread is a bit surprising, mostly because I haven't really considered Clemens to be anywhere near the top 5.

I saw him pitch, and saw Pedro pitch, and Pedro was better. Randy Johnson I didn't see pitch but also thought was better.
And old guy Nolan Ryan - who had figured out pitching over just throwing 100... and seemed to pretty regularly pitch a no hitter.

Probably a few others, but not consistently.
Maddux and Glavine - Good reliable guys with good control on teams that were both good and knew how to win. But removed from the Braves? Not so sure. At least you knew they wouldn't beat themselves with walks and lots of bad pitches.

[Seven]

Pound for pound I think he was one of the greatest pitchers the game has ever seen. Few can argue the dominance of his early years with the Red Sox, and then later on with the Blue Jays. He wasn't too shabby for the Yankees and Astros either. His Longevity was very impressive.

PED's are practically a nonfactor in my book. Too Many players have taken them, and few have achieved the greatness of someone like Bonds or Clemens. I also think you can't draw a line in the sand, and say "well some cheating is ok, others aren't"

Are we going to ignore the bowls of Greenies in the clubhouses? Aaron, Mays and Mantle all admitted to trying it at least once. In many peoples opinions, even once should disqualify someones chances. Babe Ruth took sheep testosterone, is that alright? Or what about Koufax abusing painkillers to pitch his last few seasons? Is that okay?

The knock against taking PED's is that it's wrong, and reflects poorly on a persons character. But if you bring up a players character, we enter the territory where there was a smattering of players who were racists, wife beaters, degenerate gamblers, etc. Clemens was a great pitcher, one of the best I've ever seen.

[drcy]

If there's nothing wrong or cheating about it, then why doe Clemens (and others) deny it?

Obviously, Clemens (and others) disagree with you, or they'd say "Yes, I took PEDs. So what?"

Originally Posted by Seven

Pound for pound I think he was one of the greatest pitchers the game has ever seen. Few can argue the dominance of his early years with the Red Sox, and then later on with the Blue Jays. He wasn't too shabby for the Yankees and Astros either. His Longevity was very impressive.

PED's are practically a nonfactor in my book. Too Many players have taken them, and few have achieved the greatness of someone like Bonds or Clemens. I also think you can't draw a line in the sand, and say "well some cheating is ok, others aren't"

Are we going to ignore the bowls of Greenies in the clubhouses? Aaron, Mays and Mantle all admitted to trying it at least once. In many peoples opinions, even once should disqualify someones chances. Babe Ruth took sheep testosterone, is that alright? Or what about Koufax abusing painkillers to pitch his last few seasons? Is that okay?

The knock against taking PED's is that it's wrong, and reflects poorly on a persons character. But if you bring up a players character, we enter the territory where there was a smattering of players who were racists, wife beaters, degenerate gamblers, etc. Clemens was a great pitcher, one of the best I've ever seen.

[G1911]

I don’t think the knock on PED’s is that they reflect poorly on character. It’s that they give a huge performance advantage and allowed a generation to put up video game statistics, unlike greenies, energy drinks or Babe Ruth’s hot dogs.

[Rad_Hazard]

Originally Posted by G1911

Yes. I’m fine with punishing them for breaking the rule or forgiving it and letting them in, but this current state where Ortiz is forgiven and his use memory holed while Clemens is cancelled and Bonds got straight blackballed out of baseball is absurd.

I agree with this 100%.

[Rad_Hazard]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Something tells me if David Ortiz had been a surly bastard, we'd be looking at a very different outcome. And how sure are we Bagwell and Piazza didn't use? I-rod?

I want to say I heard something about Bagwell, maybe?

Piazza and I-Rod? That's the first I'm hearing of these accusations and I don't buy them for a minute.

I listened to Piazza's book and he is open about how much privilege he grew up with resulting in him having a batting cage at his house for god sake. He was destined to be a great hitter. He would max out the most difficult grip trainers and just do that all day, his wrists and grip were insane.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Rad_Hazard

I want to say I heard something about Bagwell, maybe?

Piazza and I-Rod? That's the first I'm hearing of these accusations and I don't buy them for a minute.

I listened to Piazza's book and he is open about how much privilege he grew up with resulting in him having a batting cage at his house for god sake. He was destined to be a great hitter. He would max out the most difficult grip trainers and just do that all day, his wrists and grip were insane.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/17/s...-steroids.html

https://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/10/s...-steroids.html

[Rad_Hazard]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/17/s...-steroids.html

https://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/10/s...-steroids.html

Interesting, I don't remember ever hearing that about either person.

So for Pudge all we have are Canseco accusations, and for Piazza we just have straight up suspicion with no evidence nor a flimsy story?

I truly don't think Piazza ever juiced. He was always big and worked very hard.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Rad_Hazard

Interesting, I don't remember ever hearing that about either person.

So for Pudge all we have are Canseco accusations, and for Piazza we just have straight up suspicion with no evidence nor a flimsy story?

I truly don't think Piazza ever juiced. He was always big and worked very hard.

Who knows, agree it has not been proven. But there was lots of talk about both.

[Rad_Hazard]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Who knows, agree it has not been proven. But there was lots of talk about both.

True, I guess I never realized so thanks for pointing it out.

With Ortiz he was listed in a report and was straight up busted so it's a bit odd how he gets preferential treatment.