Tinker Evers Chance photo

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Shankweather

Are there any Cubs or city of Chicago historians that can tell me about this photo? Where it was taken, approximately when, and possibly who the people in the photos on the wall are? Clearly the main subjects are Johnny Evers, Joe Tinker, and Frank Chance, but I'd like to find out as much as I can about it. The LotG auction didn't provide many details.

https://bid.loveofthegameauctions.co...e?itemid=26868

As mentioned in my earlier post, Frank Chance passed away in 1924, September 15 to be exact, so we know the photo was certainly no later than that. Evers had been coaching for the Chicago White Sox in 1922 and 1923, and was set to reunite with Frank Chance who was hired to come in and manage the White Sox in 1924. Except, Chance came down with a severe case of influenza, from which he also developed asthma and other health issues, which led to him returning to his the West coast home in LA and emergency surgery for his condition in April, 1924. There may have been a small window of time where Evers and Chance were together in Chicago for such a picture, after he got hired as the new Chicago manager, and before he got too ill to continue on and moved back to LA before his surgery and subsequent passing. But it doesn't help explain Tinker's presence in the photo at this time as he had moved to Florida in 1920 as the owner/manager of the Orlando Tigers of the Florida League, and also became involved in real estate down there in the early 1920's. This late 1923/early 1924 timing also doesn't make sense in that Tinker's first wife, who had a long history of poor health, ended up committing suicide on Christmas Day of 1923, supposedly as a result of a nervous breakdown. Further clouding the sense of Evers and Tinker being together in such a picture is the fact the two of them had gotten into an on-field physical fight during a game back on September 14, 1905, and as a result, the two supposedly did not talk and had nothing to do with each other off the field for the next 33 years, until they were both asked (apparently without each other's knowledge) to participate in the radio broadcast the 1938 World Series. It is also a main reason Tinker later asked to be traded to the Reds in 1913, after Evers was appointed the Cubs manager for that 1913 season, and Tinker not wanting to play for him. It obviously is not entirely true though as in 1929, Tinker signed a 10 week contract to perform in a theatrical baseball skit along with Evers, presented in various cities across the country.

The LOTG description mentions the picture had markings on the back of it indicating it was issued by International Film Service (IFS). IFS was owned by William Randolph Hearst and formed back in 1915, and was created to translate top comic strip properties Hearst owned into "living comic strips" to be added to the tail end of newsreels then being produced by another Hearst owned/formed entity, International Picture Service. Because of Hearst's pro-German leanings, his business suffered during WW1, and he formally shut down and laid of everyone at IFS on July 6, 1918. Hearst apparently licensed the animation work to John C. Terry and his studio, but they shut down about a year later as well. So Hearst this time licensed the IFS animation work to a competing studio, Bray Productions, under a two year contract from 1919 to 1921 to produce IFS cartoons. At the end of the contract the licensing deal broke off, and the final few IFS cartoons were released in early 1921. How a picture of Tinker, Evers, and Chance fits in with a company producing comic trailers for newsreels is beyond me. But at least it appears to set the spectrum for when this photo was taken/issued as no earlier than 1915, and probably no later than early 1921.

Sorry, not much more help beyond that it was likely taken sometime between 1915 through early 1921, and not necessarily at a Chicago location. After they started leaving the Cubs in 1913, these three were in different cities and parts of the country during the time this photo was taken. It is possible this was from a random, chance meeting of the three old teammates. And given that I believe International Film Service was based out of New York city, I could see the picture happening in some New York restaurant/club where they happened to be together again for some chance or obscure reason or cirumstance. Best I can do, sorry.

[Jobu]

What if the photo shows Evers, Chance, and someone who looks like but is not Tinker? Below is the famous Paul Thompson Tinker photo, the fella in question, and on the right an older Tinker from a photo in the HOF's collection:

Tinker comp sm.jpg

I don't think that is Tinker - lots of the facial features look different to me and they don't appear to have the same teeth.

If true, this removes all of the Tinker questions from the equation. And it seems possible that there is some symbolism going on in the photo - if Chance is handing the ball to Evers, this could well be when managerial duties were passed between the two, which would then place this most likely in a Chicago nightclub with the guy in the middle perhaps being the club owner or working for the team.

What this does not resolve is the dating of the stamp proposed by Bob. I can add to that some nice work by Jim Chapman who has a NY stamp study:

https://chapmandeadballcollection.co...tamp-primer-2/

I checked the 1924 San Francisco phonebook - there is no listing for International News Service but there is one for the International News Service, which was at 632 Mission St. - not too far away from the Call Building.

Looking around for information on the New Call Building, I found this:

https://sfpl.org/locations/main-libr...isco-news-call

Specifically, "The combined gift of the morgues from the San Francisco News and Hearst’s San Francisco Call-Bulletin was an estimated 2 million photographs. The San Francisco News-Call Bulletin Photo Morgue represents the working files created and used by the newspapers’ staff between the 1920s and September 1965."

This doesn't clear up why International Film Service would've been typed onto the back of this photo in 1924 - but a typing error is possible, something less likely had this been a stamp - but it does show a Hearst photo archive working out of the building typed on the back of the photo in the 1920s and beyond, so maybe we can't rule out 1924.

Lots of guesses, that's for sure.

Originally Posted by BobC

As mentioned in my earlier post, Frank Chance passed away in 1924, September 15 to be exact, so we know the photo was certainly no later than that. Evers had been coaching for the Chicago White Sox in 1922 and 1923, and was set to reunite with Frank Chance who was hired to come in and manage the White Sox in 1924. Except, Chance came down with a severe case of influenza, from which he also developed asthma and other health issues, which led to him returning to his the West coast home in LA and emergency surgery for his condition in April, 1924. There may have been a small window of time where Evers and Chance were together in Chicago for such a picture, after he got hired as the new Chicago manager, and before he got too ill to continue on and moved back to LA before his surgery and subsequent passing. But it doesn't help explain Tinker's presence in the photo at this time as he had moved to Florida in 1920 as the owner/manager of the Orlando Tigers of the Florida League, and also became involved in real estate down there in the early 1920's. This late 1923/early 1924 timing also doesn't make sense in that Tinker's first wife, who had a long history of poor health, ended up committing suicide on Christmas Day of 1923, supposedly as a result of a nervous breakdown. Further clouding the sense of Evers and Tinker being together in such a picture is the fact the two of them had gotten into an on-field physical fight during a game back on September 14, 1905, and as a result, the two supposedly did not talk and had nothing to do with each other off the field for the next 33 years, until they were both asked (apparently without each other's knowledge) to participate in the radio broadcast the 1938 World Series. It is also a main reason Tinker later asked to be traded to the Reds in 1913, after Evers was appointed the Cubs manager for that 1913 season, and Tinker not wanting to play for him. It obviously is not entirely true though as in 1929, Tinker signed a 10 week contract to perform in a theatrical baseball skit along with Evers, presented in various cities across the country.

The LOTG description mentions the picture had markings on the back of it indicating it was issued by International Film Service (IFS). IFS was owned by William Randolph Hearst and formed back in 1915, and was created to translate top comic strip properties Hearst owned into "living comic strips" to be added to the tail end of newsreels then being produced by another Hearst owned/formed entity, International Picture Service. Because of Hearst's pro-German leanings, his business suffered during WW1, and he formally shut down and laid of everyone at IFS on July 6, 1918. Hearst apparently licensed the animation work to John C. Terry and his studio, but they shut down about a year later as well. So Hearst this time licensed the IFS animation work to a competing studio, Bray Productions, under a two year contract from 1919 to 1921 to produce IFS cartoons. At the end of the contract the licensing deal broke off, and the final few IFS cartoons were released in early 1921. How a picture of Tinker, Evers, and Chance fits in with a company producing comic trailers for newsreels is beyond me. But at least it appears to set the spectrum for when this photo was taken/issued as no earlier than 1915, and probably no later than early 1921.

Sorry, not much more help beyond that it was likely taken sometime between 1915 through early 1921, and not necessarily at a Chicago location. After they started leaving the Cubs in 1913, these three were in different cities and parts of the country during the time this photo was taken. It is possible this was from a random, chance meeting of the three old teammates. And given that I believe International Film Service was based out of New York city, I could see the picture happening in some New York restaurant/club where they happened to be together again for some chance or obscure reason or cirumstance. Best I can do, sorry.

[HercDriver]

Funny…as I was reading this thread after a long day of working, I kept thinking that wasn’t Tinker to begin with. Glad somebody agrees…

Cheers,
Geno

[RCMcKenzie]

My .02. What do they call it? Occam's razor? If Mark the SABR photo expert still reads the board, I hope he chimes in. I think Tinker's ear in this photo looks like his ear in his T205 card. His teeth are worse in this photo, but look the same to me. I'm wrong on these photo id's all the time. The photo only makes sense as "Tinker, Evers, and Chance" or some sort of look-alike inside joke photo of them. My first thought was that doesn't look like Frank Chance.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie

My .02. What do they call it? Occam's razor? If Mark the SABR photo expert still reads the board, I hope he chimes in. I think Tinker's ear in this photo looks like his ear in his T205 card. His teeth are worse in this photo, but look the same to me. I'm wrong on these photo id's all the time. The photo only makes sense as "Tinker, Evers, and Chance" or some sort of look-alike inside joke photo of them. My first thought was that doesn't look like Frank Chance.

Chance was the oldest of the trio, and looks to have suffered the most hair loss as well. Also, if this does turn out to be an early 1924 photo, don' forget Chance was likely sick. Couple that his aging and I can understand how Chance could possibly look a little more different when compared to earlier photos of himself than his cohorts.

[RCMcKenzie]

Bob, I'm confused. What are Bryan and you guys saying? It's Evers and Chance and a bartender? A random fan, that looks kind of like Tinker? They cheers-ed up a picture and LOTG sold it as a Cubs photo 90 years later? I'm glad to be wrong. Someone with more bona fides than me can back me up.

[Jobu]

I think that is 100% Evers and Chance and is probably someone other than Tinker. The hair is combed the wrong way, the guy in the middle appears to have less hair on the left widow's peak than either young or old Tinker, his eyebrows are arched while Tinkers are straight and fuller, his face is rounder, eyes seem a bit further apart and a different shape, and the teeth are different - though teeth change over time and maybe Tinker broke and messed up a bunch between the Thompson photo and 1924 (if that is when this one was taken). There are lots of photos out there with players with restaurant/nightclub owners, team management, and private citizens, so I don't think that is a stretch.

Given Chance's California ties, it makes some sense that it would have been sent to San Francisco for local use.

I don't think it can 100% be ruled out as Tinker - maybe he gained weight he later lost, changed his hair, and messed up his teeth - just saying to me that doesn't feel like it is Tinker.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie

Bob, I'm confused. What are Bryan and you guys saying? It's Evers and Chance and a bartender? A random fan, that looks kind of like Tinker? They cheers-ed up a picture and LOTG sold it as a Cubs photo 90 years later? I'm glad to be wrong. Someone with more bona fides than me can back me up.

Hey Rob,

In looking back at the original photo sold by LOTG, it does appear that the person supposed to be Tinker doesn't quite as well resemble other period photos of Joe Tinker as much as other period photos of Evers and Chance match the images of them in the LOTG photo. And now with the addition of the 1923 photo of the trio, again, the image of Tinker doesn't quite as well match up with his supposed image in the LOTG photo. It seems possible that may just be someone other than Tinker in that LOTG photo, but as of now, no true proof, just speculation.

I am surprised to now see a known 1923 photo of the trio that Dave posted, as that belies the notion that the three were very unlikely to have gotten together for a photo in the early 1920s. Still, the image of Tinker in the 1923 photo looks to be older (and much heavier in the face and especially the neck) than the supposed image of Tinker in the LOTG photo. Now based on EddieP's comment about the wide ties becoming popular in 1924, that new photo of the trio from 1923 appears to coincide with that observation as it definitely shows Tinker and Evers in skinnier ties. So, if the timeline for that fashion change is correct, you'd not expect Tinker to look so much older in the 1923 photo than his supposed image in the LOTG photo. Also, in that 1923 photo Tinker looks to be about the same height as Evers, which he supposedly was at 5'9. I know the camera angle and perspective can be misleading, but in the LOTG photo, Evers is definitely taller than the person supposed to be Tinker. When you look at the 1923 photo, you can look at the top edge of the row of seats behind Tinker and Evers to get a better perspective. Take a look at the angle or line created by the top of the seats behind them, and compare that to the angle or line from the tops of Tinker's and Evers' left ears. Now go back to the LOTG photo and look at how the tops of their ears match up. Unfortunately you can't see Evers' left ear in this photo, and the person supposed to be Tinker has their head tilted to their right, but you can still see that the top of Evers' right ear and the top of the supposed Tinker's left ear, don't make sense to them being the same height. I know that people's ears are not always symmetrical and exactly the same height and location on both sides of their face, but that would seem to be too coincidental for that to be a significant and relevant factor in this instance. It is very confusing to say the least.

The one factor we know for certain is that Chance passed in September of 1924, so the LOTG photo had to have been taken before then. If that is Joe Tinker or a doppelganger of his in the LOTG photo, I'm not 100% sure either way. I'm still slightly leaning toward it not being him in the LOTG photo though. And as to who it might be if it is not Joe Tinker, your guess is as good as mine.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Jobu

What if the photo shows Evers, Chance, and someone who looks like but is not Tinker? Below is the famous Paul Thompson Tinker photo, the fella in question, and on the right an older Tinker from a photo in the HOF's collection:

Attachment 523508

I don't think that is Tinker - lots of the facial features look different to me and they don't appear to have the same teeth.

If true, this removes all of the Tinker questions from the equation. And it seems possible that there is some symbolism going on in the photo - if Chance is handing the ball to Evers, this could well be when managerial duties were passed between the two, which would then place this most likely in a Chicago nightclub with the guy in the middle perhaps being the club owner or working for the team.

What this does not resolve is the dating of the stamp proposed by Bob. I can add to that some nice work by Jim Chapman who has a NY stamp study:

https://chapmandeadballcollection.co...tamp-primer-2/

I checked the 1924 San Francisco phonebook - there is no listing for International News Service but there is one for the International News Service, which was at 632 Mission St. - not too far away from the Call Building.

Looking around for information on the New Call Building, I found this:

https://sfpl.org/locations/main-libr...isco-news-call

Specifically, "The combined gift of the morgues from the San Francisco News and Hearst’s San Francisco Call-Bulletin was an estimated 2 million photographs. The San Francisco News-Call Bulletin Photo Morgue represents the working files created and used by the newspapers’ staff between the 1920s and September 1965."

This doesn't clear up why International Film Service would've been typed onto the back of this photo in 1924 - but a typing error is possible, something less likely had this been a stamp - but it does show a Hearst photo archive working out of the building typed on the back of the photo in the 1920s and beyond, so maybe we can't rule out 1924.

Lots of guesses, that's for sure.

Great additional info Bryan. And in seeing that photo of an older Tinker next to the one from the photo in question, and one from his earlier playing days, I have to concur and now don't think that is Tinker either in the photo with Evers and Chance. I wasn't 100% sure when I first saw the photo, but know how diligent Al is in selling and listing things, so I initially figured he had just gained some weight in his face over the years, and him chomping on a cigar caused enough change in the facial expression and features that it was perfectly natural Tinker would look a little different from his playing days in the supposed photo with Evers and Chance. But adding that much older Tinker photo, and putting it side by side with the supposedly two earlier ones of him, really brings out the lack of a normal aging progression for Tinker across all three of those pictures.

And if that isn't Tinker, that would make more sense due to the fight and ongoing dislike Tinker had with Evers for years. You wouldn't expect to have seen the two of them in an off the field photo otherwise. Also, it not being Tinker in the photo would make more sense for Evers and Chance being together because of their potential re-joining and working together in baseball as members of the White Sox coaching staff for the then upcoming 1924 season. And the possible photo op of Chance ceremoniously passing the ball, sort of as a symbol of passing the managerial duties, to Evers, makes logical sense then as well.

Great work in finding that info on Hearst's International Film Service company, and the various stamps they used to mark their portfolio items. The fact that such a stamp was not used on the back of this photo, but was typed on instead, and mentioned a San Francisco and not a New York city office address, is a bit perplexing. As you mentioned, Hearst did have a photo archive kept in San Fransisco for his Call-Bulletin paper. Perhaps he had the IFS photo archives sent out to the San Francisco office for safekeeping some time after he'd formally shut IFS down in 1918. This photo of Evers, Chance, and whoever this third guy is, may have just been included in with everything else sent, but not having been properly stamped as expected. Someone in San Francisco may have seen it lacked the proper source stamp, and just guessed it was originally the property of IFS, so that was what they typed on the back.

However, Hearst also owned a paper in New York City at the time, the Journal, and one would think they'd have a photo archive as well. So why send the IFS photo archive across country to San Francisco? Makes no logical sense, unless you consider that Hearst was originally from San Francisco, as was the first ever newspaper he ever owned. So maybe he did end up sending discontinued archive items to his former home and first ever newspaper. We'll probably never know the true, full story, but it's still fun to speculate, and interesting to read and learn about. Good stuff!

[BobC]

One more possible difference pointing to that not being Joe Tinker in the photo with Evers and Chance. Chance was the tallest of the trio at 6'0 tall, but Tinker and Evers were supposed to be the same height with both at 5'9. In that photo Chance is clearly the tallest of the three, but Evers does not look to be the same height as the person supposed to be Tinker. He looks taller than the supposed Tinker, and thus maybe adding more weight and support to the middle person not being Tinker after all.

[EddieP]

If you notice they are all wearing very wide ties. This became fashionable approximately 1924 when manufacturers started to construct ties out of 3 pieces of cloth. However, By the 1930s wide ties fell out of fashion. So at the earliest I surmise the photo could not have been taken before 1924. Frank Chance fell ill in the Spring of 1924 and died that September. So I’ll go out on a limb and say that picture was taken somewhere between January to April of 1924. Perhaps it was a celebration among the 3 when Chance was named skipper of the ChiSox?

[BobC]

Originally Posted by EddieP

If you notice they are all wearing very wide ties. This became fashionable approximately 1924 when manufacturers started to construct ties out of 3 pieces of cloth. However, By the 1930s wide ties fell out of fashion. So at the earliest I surmise the photo could not have been taken before 1924.

Another good item possibly pointing to this photo being about Evers and Chance passing the Manager's torch in very late 1923/very early 1924. Great catch Eddie.

[EddieP]

Originally Posted by Jobu

What if the photo shows Evers, Chance, and someone who looks like but is not Tinker? Below is the famous Paul Thompson Tinker photo, the fella in question, and on the right an older Tinker from a photo in the HOF's collection:

Attachment 523508

I don't think that is Tinker - lots of the facial features look different to me and they don't appear to have the same teeth.

If true, this removes all of the Tinker questions from the equation. And it seems possible that there is some symbolism going on in the photo - if Chance is handing the ball to Evers, this could well be when managerial duties were passed between the two, which would then place this most likely in a Chicago nightclub with the guy in the middle perhaps being the club owner or working for the team.

What this does not resolve is the dating of the stamp proposed by Bob. I can add to that some nice work by Jim Chapman who has a NY stamp study:

https://chapmandeadballcollection.co...tamp-primer-2/

I checked the 1924 San Francisco phonebook - there is no listing for International News Service but there is one for the International News Service, which was at 632 Mission St. - not too far away from the Call Building.

Looking around for information on the New Call Building, I found this:

https://sfpl.org/locations/main-libr...isco-news-call

Specifically, "The combined gift of the morgues from the San Francisco News and Hearst’s San Francisco Call-Bulletin was an estimated 2 million photographs. The San Francisco News-Call Bulletin Photo Morgue represents the working files created and used by the newspapers’ staff between the 1920s and September 1965."

This doesn't clear up why International Film Service would've been typed onto the back of this photo in 1924 - but a typing error is possible, something less likely had this been a stamp - but it does show a Hearst photo archive working out of the building typed on the back of the photo in the 1920s and beyond, so maybe we can't rule out 1924.

Lots of guesses, that's for sure.

Here are some pictures of Tinker using an aging App.

[brianp-beme]

One thing I have noticed that old-time players really seemed to age during their career, compared to modern day players. I have always figured that one of the factors would be that they played day games their entire careers, thus leaving them exposed to the ravages of the sun. I wonder if that aging app would take into account such a factor?

Brian

[bigfanNY]

Evers S81 silk

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by brianp-beme

One thing I have noticed that old-time players really seemed to age during their career, compared to modern day players. I have always figured that one of the factors would be that they played day games their entire careers, thus leaving them exposed to the ravages of the sun. I wonder if that aging app would take into account such a factor?

Brian

That would only matter if modern players stayed indoors during the day. Players don't age only while they are playing baseball.

[Shankweather]

I got a reply from Al about the photo!

“OKAY. So the good news is that we’ve found some further info about your photo.

The bad news is that it’s not Joe Tinker.

In Donald Honig’s book The Chicago Cubs: An Illustrated History, we discovered the same photo. The guy in the center is race car driver Barney Oldfield - Oldfield, while very important in his own field, is obviously not Joe Tinker. Oldfield, oddly enough, is pictured WITH Tinker in the 1912 Case Automobiles postcard - we’ve sold a few of those over the years, here’s an example: https://bid.loveofthegameauctions.co...ce?itemid=9051 A quick image search of Oldfield confirms it.

Our Inventory Manager Andrew Aronstein gets the nod for finding the photo.

Of course we also get two demerits for not picking this up, as this is the kind of thing we take pretty seriously. I want you to be able to feel confident in your bids when you’re bidding with LOTG. We take great pride in the information in our descriptions, and we understand the responsibility that comes with running auctions, not just because we want our descriptions to be accurate for the bidders’ sake, but because once it’s up there on the internet, it becomes part of the next guy’s research. We work pretty hard to get it right, but I hope you can appreciate that nobody gets it right 100% of the time.

We’ll also be passing this info along to our authenticator to help with his own research library.

I’m attaching a copy of the page in Honig’s book where we found the image. We will be issuing you a check for a full refund on your purchase, but I want you to keep the photo - it’s pretty cool, and an interesting piece of history in and of itself. We’ll also be sure to update our description so that it’s properly identified for when people stumble onto it.

We cut checks every other week, so I’d appreciate if you’d give us a little time to pay you back.

Thanks so much for bringing this to your attention, and I apologize for the lack of accuracy.”

No surprise he handled it this way. The postcard he mentioned with Tinker and Oldfield is actually already in my collection, so that’s fun. I don’t think they should be judged on this miss since it was an incredibly easy mistake to make

[BobC]

Stephen,

Not surprised by Al's actions, he will always do the right thing and take care of you. And am glad to see that a few of us were pretty good at figuring out it wasn't Tinker in that photo, after all. LOL Nice to know we weren't completely ridiculous in our thinking.

Now even though that isn't a picture of the famous double play trio, it still is a great photo with some well known HOFers, and a famous race car driver. Plus the fact that there is a publication of it in a known book adds to the potential desirability as well. This picture should still be worth a few bucks. In fact you never know, now that you may be throwing racing collectors in the mix as well, it could still be worth as much as the winning bid, or maybe even more. I know we have some race card collectors on the forum as well. Might be worth checking in with them to see if there is any additional value from their side. Who knows, you may just be better off to tell Al to forget the refund, and keep the picture.