Tinker Evers Chance photo
 

Are there any Cubs or city of Chicago historians that can tell me about this photo? Where it was taken, approximately when, and possibly who the people in the photos on the wall are? Clearly the main subjects are Johnny Evers, Joe Tinker, and Frank Chance, but I'd like to find out as much as I can about it. The LotG auction didn't provide many details.

https://bid.loveofthegameauctions.co...e?itemid=26868

https://bid.loveofthegameauctions.co...68_1_57608.jpg

Can't help with the photo, but you might find this interesting to learn more about the Trio:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lOTVOOuW7Bo


Maybe try to contact him since he wrote a book on them.

That looks like it could be a microphone stand off Chances left shoulder in the background, and the photos on the wall look like signed photos of performers? So maybe the photo was taken in a nightclub or lounge. Just a guess though.

It is a good story about the three. However, the author/presenter is not very polished and takes away from it. Need a better present or/narrator

I read that book! I never thought about asking the author. Looks like he's on Twitter, I'll give it a shot.

To piggy-back on Phil's comment, I remember that Tinker had a vaudeville act for several years during the off-season. He appears to be the one feted here. Also, the photo immediately over Evers' head looks a little like a younger Tinker, --maybe he once performed at this locale. Also and as noted, the wall photos appear to have been autographed and personalized, again pointing toward a dinner or night club that had hosted these acts.

Quite possibly the Pump Room or Coq d'Or.

Tony,

Funny you mentioned the Pump Room as that thought jumped into my head when I first saw the picture also. No chance though. The Pump Room, in the old Ambassador East hotel, didn't open till 1938. Frank Chance passed in 1924.

For those unaware, the Ambassador East was one of those grand old downtown city hotels you'd often see in old movies and shows. In fact, the Ambassador East was featured in Hitchcock's classic, "North by Northwest", which starred Cary Grant. The Pump Room entrance was through the hotel lobby, and the walls of the place were covered with photos of all the celebrities, politicians, and other notable people that supposedly had been to the restaurant/club. The pictures on the wall of the OP's photo look very similar to how the Pump Room looked.

Not really familiar with Coq d'Or, but assume that was a similar type of club/restaurant inside a major hotel. In this case it was Chicago's Drake Hotel. But again, no chance it was the site of the OP's picture as Coq d'Or didn't open till 1933.

Bob, I guessed the photo was from the 1930's. It must be from the early 1920's. It looks like a hotel lobby. Unfortunately, most of Chicago's hotels from that era have seen the wrecking ball. Other guesses would be the Sherman House, Tremont or the Grand Pacific.

As mentioned in my earlier post, Frank Chance passed away in 1924, September 15 to be exact, so we know the photo was certainly no later than that. Evers had been coaching for the Chicago White Sox in 1922 and 1923, and was set to reunite with Frank Chance who was hired to come in and manage the White Sox in 1924. Except, Chance came down with a severe case of influenza, from which he also developed asthma and other health issues, which led to him returning to his the West coast home in LA and emergency surgery for his condition in April, 1924. There may have been a small window of time where Evers and Chance were together in Chicago for such a picture, after he got hired as the new Chicago manager, and before he got too ill to continue on and moved back to LA before his surgery and subsequent passing. But it doesn't help explain Tinker's presence in the photo at this time as he had moved to Florida in 1920 as the owner/manager of the Orlando Tigers of the Florida League, and also became involved in real estate down there in the early 1920's. This late 1923/early 1924 timing also doesn't make sense in that Tinker's first wife, who had a long history of poor health, ended up committing suicide on Christmas Day of 1923, supposedly as a result of a nervous breakdown. Further clouding the sense of Evers and Tinker being together in such a picture is the fact the two of them had gotten into an on-field physical fight during a game back on September 14, 1905, and as a result, the two supposedly did not talk and had nothing to do with each other off the field for the next 33 years, until they were both asked (apparently without each other's knowledge) to participate in the radio broadcast the 1938 World Series. It is also a main reason Tinker later asked to be traded to the Reds in 1913, after Evers was appointed the Cubs manager for that 1913 season, and Tinker not wanting to play for him. It obviously is not entirely true though as in 1929, Tinker signed a 10 week contract to perform in a theatrical baseball skit along with Evers, presented in various cities across the country.

The LOTG description mentions the picture had markings on the back of it indicating it was issued by International Film Service (IFS). IFS was owned by William Randolph Hearst and formed back in 1915, and was created to translate top comic strip properties Hearst owned into "living comic strips" to be added to the tail end of newsreels then being produced by another Hearst owned/formed entity, International Picture Service. Because of Hearst's pro-German leanings, his business suffered during WW1, and he formally shut down and laid of everyone at IFS on July 6, 1918. Hearst apparently licensed the animation work to John C. Terry and his studio, but they shut down about a year later as well. So Hearst this time licensed the IFS animation work to a competing studio, Bray Productions, under a two year contract from 1919 to 1921 to produce IFS cartoons. At the end of the contract the licensing deal broke off, and the final few IFS cartoons were released in early 1921. How a picture of Tinker, Evers, and Chance fits in with a company producing comic trailers for newsreels is beyond me. But at least it appears to set the spectrum for when this photo was taken/issued as no earlier than 1915, and probably no later than early 1921.

Sorry, not much more help beyond that it was likely taken sometime between 1915 through early 1921, and not necessarily at a Chicago location. After they started leaving the Cubs in 1913, these three were in different cities and parts of the country during the time this photo was taken. It is possible this was from a random, chance meeting of the three old teammates. And given that I believe International Film Service was based out of New York city, I could see the picture happening in some New York restaurant/club where they happened to be together again for some chance or obscure reason or cirumstance. Best I can do, sorry.

Tony,

Did a little more digging, and see what else I came up with in post #10. I'm wondering if this photo wasn't taken outside Chicago, possibly in New York. They may have all been together on some MLB business. Also, once Tinker moved to Orlando in 1920, I would think with his team ownership and managerial duties, along with the start up of his real estate issues and his wife's health issues, this chance photo op more likely took place before his 1920 move to Florida. Pure speculation on my part though.

I’m not any value to the history of the photo but wow, what a great one.

I played with the levels in Photoshop, so here is a close up of the pictures at top right. Maybe it'll help identify them...

Attachment 523468


And I zoomed in on the pin on his chest to give it a bit more clarity. Perhaps it's also a clue(?) or can help provide insight (if it isn't just a part of the jacket, I mean)...

Attachment 523469

Funny how the young guy in the picture above Evers head looks eerily like Tinkers Carl Horner portrait.
-

Nice Photo of the Sad Lexicon of of Baseball

What if the photo shows Evers, Chance, and someone who looks like but is not Tinker? Below is the famous Paul Thompson Tinker photo, the fella in question, and on the right an older Tinker from a photo in the HOF's collection:

Attachment 523508

I don't think that is Tinker - lots of the facial features look different to me and they don't appear to have the same teeth.

If true, this removes all of the Tinker questions from the equation. And it seems possible that there is some symbolism going on in the photo - if Chance is handing the ball to Evers, this could well be when managerial duties were passed between the two, which would then place this most likely in a Chicago nightclub with the guy in the middle perhaps being the club owner or working for the team.

What this does not resolve is the dating of the stamp proposed by Bob. I can add to that some nice work by Jim Chapman who has a NY stamp study:

https://chapmandeadballcollection.co...tamp-primer-2/

I checked the 1924 San Francisco phonebook - there is no listing for International News Service but there is one for the International News Service, which was at 632 Mission St. - not too far away from the Call Building.

Looking around for information on the New Call Building, I found this:

https://sfpl.org/locations/main-libr...isco-news-call

Specifically, "The combined gift of the morgues from the San Francisco News and Hearst’s San Francisco Call-Bulletin was an estimated 2 million photographs. The San Francisco News-Call Bulletin Photo Morgue represents the working files created and used by the newspapers’ staff between the 1920s and September 1965."

This doesn't clear up why International Film Service would've been typed onto the back of this photo in 1924 - but a typing error is possible, something less likely had this been a stamp - but it does show a Hearst photo archive working out of the building typed on the back of the photo in the 1920s and beyond, so maybe we can't rule out 1924.

Lots of guesses, that's for sure. :)

Tinker
 

Funny…as I was reading this thread after a long day of working, I kept thinking that wasn’t Tinker to begin with. Glad somebody agrees…

Cheers,
Geno

My .02. What do they call it? Occam's razor? If Mark the SABR photo expert still reads the board, I hope he chimes in. I think Tinker's ear in this photo looks like his ear in his T205 card. His teeth are worse in this photo, but look the same to me. I'm wrong on these photo id's all the time. The photo only makes sense as "Tinker, Evers, and Chance" or some sort of look-alike inside joke photo of them. My first thought was that doesn't look like Frank Chance.

Some interesting input...identifying folks in old photos can be fun. I instantly recognized Evers and Chance, but Tinker didn't jump at me.

One thing I do know is that Chance in this photo also looks a lot like Vladimir Putin.

Brian

Great additional info Bryan. And in seeing that photo of an older Tinker next to the one from the photo in question, and one from his earlier playing days, I have to concur and now don't think that is Tinker either in the photo with Evers and Chance. I wasn't 100% sure when I first saw the photo, but know how diligent Al is in selling and listing things, so I initially figured he had just gained some weight in his face over the years, and him chomping on a cigar caused enough change in the facial expression and features that it was perfectly natural Tinker would look a little different from his playing days in the supposed photo with Evers and Chance. But adding that much older Tinker photo, and putting it side by side with the supposedly two earlier ones of him, really brings out the lack of a normal aging progression for Tinker across all three of those pictures.

And if that isn't Tinker, that would make more sense due to the fight and ongoing dislike Tinker had with Evers for years. You wouldn't expect to have seen the two of them in an off the field photo otherwise. Also, it not being Tinker in the photo would make more sense for Evers and Chance being together because of their potential re-joining and working together in baseball as members of the White Sox coaching staff for the then upcoming 1924 season. And the possible photo op of Chance ceremoniously passing the ball, sort of as a symbol of passing the managerial duties, to Evers, makes logical sense then as well.

Great work in finding that info on Hearst's International Film Service company, and the various stamps they used to mark their portfolio items. The fact that such a stamp was not used on the back of this photo, but was typed on instead, and mentioned a San Francisco and not a New York city office address, is a bit perplexing. As you mentioned, Hearst did have a photo archive kept in San Fransisco for his Call-Bulletin paper. Perhaps he had the IFS photo archives sent out to the San Francisco office for safekeeping some time after he'd formally shut IFS down in 1918. This photo of Evers, Chance, and whoever this third guy is, may have just been included in with everything else sent, but not having been properly stamped as expected. Someone in San Francisco may have seen it lacked the proper source stamp, and just guessed it was originally the property of IFS, so that was what they typed on the back.

However, Hearst also owned a paper in New York City at the time, the Journal, and one would think they'd have a photo archive as well. So why send the IFS photo archive across country to San Francisco? Makes no logical sense, unless you consider that Hearst was originally from San Francisco, as was the first ever newspaper he ever owned. So maybe he did end up sending discontinued archive items to his former home and first ever newspaper. We'll probably never know the true, full story, but it's still fun to speculate, and interesting to read and learn about. Good stuff!

One more possible difference pointing to that not being Joe Tinker in the photo with Evers and Chance. Chance was the tallest of the trio at 6'0 tall, but Tinker and Evers were supposed to be the same height with both at 5'9. In that photo Chance is clearly the tallest of the three, but Evers does not look to be the same height as the person supposed to be Tinker. He looks taller than the supposed Tinker, and thus maybe adding more weight and support to the middle person not being Tinker after all.

If you notice they are all wearing very wide ties. This became fashionable approximately 1924 when manufacturers started to construct ties out of 3 pieces of cloth. However, By the 1930s wide ties fell out of fashion. So at the earliest I surmise the photo could not have been taken before 1924. Frank Chance fell ill in the Spring of 1924 and died that September. So I’ll go out on a limb and say that picture was taken somewhere between January to April of 1924. Perhaps it was a celebration among the 3 when Chance was named skipper of the ChiSox?

Another good item possibly pointing to this photo being about Evers and Chance passing the Manager's torch in very late 1923/very early 1924. Great catch Eddie.

Chance was the oldest of the trio, and looks to have suffered the most hair loss as well. Also, if this does turn out to be an early 1924 photo, don' forget Chance was likely sick. Couple that his aging and I can understand how Chance could possibly look a little more different when compared to earlier photos of himself than his cohorts.

Bob, I'm confused. What are Bryan and you guys saying? It's Evers and Chance and a bartender? A random fan, that looks kind of like Tinker? They cheers-ed up a picture and LOTG sold it as a Cubs photo 90 years later? I'm glad to be wrong. Someone with more bona fides than me can back me up.

I think that is 100% Evers and Chance and is probably someone other than Tinker. The hair is combed the wrong way, the guy in the middle appears to have less hair on the left widow's peak than either young or old Tinker, his eyebrows are arched while Tinkers are straight and fuller, his face is rounder, eyes seem a bit further apart and a different shape, and the teeth are different - though teeth change over time and maybe Tinker broke and messed up a bunch between the Thompson photo and 1924 (if that is when this one was taken). There are lots of photos out there with players with restaurant/nightclub owners, team management, and private citizens, so I don't think that is a stretch.

Given Chance's California ties, it makes some sense that it would have been sent to San Francisco for local use.

I don't think it can 100% be ruled out as Tinker - maybe he gained weight he later lost, changed his hair, and messed up his teeth - just saying to me that doesn't feel like it is Tinker.

Yeah, I wanted it to be Tinker, Evers, Chance, but that middle guy, based on Jobu's comparison...not Tinker.

They both have protruding left ears, but look at the inner ear structure. Much smoother on the guy chomping on the cigar.

Also note in the Thompson photo Tinkers eyes are blue (or light pigment), where the photo in question looks like a darker pigment.

For a comparison, Here's a Chance, Tinker, Evers photo from 1923 when Chance was managing the Red Sox.

https://media.gettyimages.com/photos...46?s=2048x2048

I originally thought the venue might be Toots Shore's saloon in NYC, but the timing isn't right.

It could be Howard, Fine and Howard?

Hey Rob,

In looking back at the original photo sold by LOTG, it does appear that the person supposed to be Tinker doesn't quite as well resemble other period photos of Joe Tinker as much as other period photos of Evers and Chance match the images of them in the LOTG photo. And now with the addition of the 1923 photo of the trio, again, the image of Tinker doesn't quite as well match up with his supposed image in the LOTG photo. It seems possible that may just be someone other than Tinker in that LOTG photo, but as of now, no true proof, just speculation.

I am surprised to now see a known 1923 photo of the trio that Dave posted, as that belies the notion that the three were very unlikely to have gotten together for a photo in the early 1920s. Still, the image of Tinker in the 1923 photo looks to be older (and much heavier in the face and especially the neck) than the supposed image of Tinker in the LOTG photo. Now based on EddieP's comment about the wide ties becoming popular in 1924, that new photo of the trio from 1923 appears to coincide with that observation as it definitely shows Tinker and Evers in skinnier ties. So, if the timeline for that fashion change is correct, you'd not expect Tinker to look so much older in the 1923 photo than his supposed image in the LOTG photo. Also, in that 1923 photo Tinker looks to be about the same height as Evers, which he supposedly was at 5'9. I know the camera angle and perspective can be misleading, but in the LOTG photo, Evers is definitely taller than the person supposed to be Tinker. When you look at the 1923 photo, you can look at the top edge of the row of seats behind Tinker and Evers to get a better perspective. Take a look at the angle or line created by the top of the seats behind them, and compare that to the angle or line from the tops of Tinker's and Evers' left ears. Now go back to the LOTG photo and look at how the tops of their ears match up. Unfortunately you can't see Evers' left ear in this photo, and the person supposed to be Tinker has their head tilted to their right, but you can still see that the top of Evers' right ear and the top of the supposed Tinker's left ear, don't make sense to them being the same height. I know that people's ears are not always symmetrical and exactly the same height and location on both sides of their face, but that would seem to be too coincidental for that to be a significant and relevant factor in this instance. It is very confusing to say the least.

The one factor we know for certain is that Chance passed in September of 1924, so the LOTG photo had to have been taken before then. If that is Joe Tinker or a doppelganger of his in the LOTG photo, I'm not 100% sure either way. I'm still slightly leaning toward it not being him in the LOTG photo though. And as to who it might be if it is not Joe Tinker, your guess is as good as mine.

Bob, if you look at that photo close, Chance looks happy enough, but Tinker and Evers look like they would rather be anywhere else but next to each other. ;)

LOL

I saw that immediately as well Dave, which goes along with story of how much they supposedly disliked each other. I didn't say anything before, thinking someone else would post saying that is too far out there to help with the photo ID. I concur with you though.

I wonder if the guy in the middle, IMO not Joe Tinker, just might be the owner of the joint where the 'foto was taken trying to get some publicity.

This is what I think. For all the comments regarding Tinker not looking like the guy in the original photo, nobody's mentioned what I think is most obvious - Tinker's nose was long, straight, and thin. The guy in the photo doesn't match that.

That would make sense, especially if it ended up in another framed display on the wall in the place. What doesn't make sense is this particular photo supposedly ending up in, or having something to do with, Hearst's International Film Service company, especially in regard to a San Francisco office location. IFS was into putting Hearst comic strip properties at the tail end of newsreels. What can that possibly have to do with a photo of supposedly Tinker, Evers, and Chance?

Agree, and thought so as well Mark, but didn't say anything as him chomping on a cigar in that LOTG photo could possibly make his facial features seem a little distorted. Another point in the not likely Joe Tinker column for sure.

Another one with Tinker and Chance from 1923. Evers nowhere in sight and a smile on Tinker's face this time. :D

https://ids.si.edu/ids/deliveryServi...81150&max=1000

Thanks for all the great responses on this. I admit I noticed that Tinker looked a bit off, but assumed everything was fine because it’s LOTG. I emailed Al tonight and he responded almost immediately. He said, “In a quick review of our notes, we did explicitly ask the authenticator to confirm that was Tinker in the photo and he did, but in looking at the photo I’d like to learn a bit more about why he is so certain.”

This has taken quite the turn but it’s fun nonetheless. LOTG is the best in the business so I’m certain we’ll get this figured out.

Al is a great guy, and diligent and thorough in his work. If he's relying upon an outside expert/authenticator, you can't fault him at all. Even so, there's currently no 100% certainty one way or the other on who that is.

Meanwhile, it is interesting (and fun) to have people throw out different observations and theories, along with doing some real time research, in trying to not only come up with exactly who is in the photo, and where it was taken, but also the possible situation and significance behind it. If it turns out to not be Tinker in the photo, and instead has something to do with Chance and Evers passing the managerial torch, so to speak, due to Chance's health, this could end up being one of the last photos of Chance before taking a turn for the worse. That in of itself would make this a remarkable photo, with a great backstory, and still quite valuable. Good luck, and be sure to let us know if you find out any further info or background on this. Great photo regardless.

Bob, I agree that these photo id threads are fun. I know Dave is posting photos to show that Tinker is not the guy in the bar, but to me, his photos support my thinking that the guy in the bar is Tinker. I was glad to learn on here that I'm not the only person that thinks it's Tinker.

Well, if Tinker and Evers didn't speak 1905 to 1938, could not even stand each other, then how could the guy in the middle of this photo be Tinker?

James, see post #29, unless we are prepared to say that Tinker is also not pictured in that photo. I know from haggling around on these ID threads, that it's easier to say or show that it is not a match.

The Sporting News photo is a nice find - and it shows Tinker's teeth. The guy in question has a broken left incisor while Tinker's is intact in the Sporting News photo from about the same period. As I pointed out above with the earlier photo of Tinker, the teeth don't match so I stand by my thinking that this probably isn't him now that we see his teeth again from the later period.

Also go back to my last line in the first paragraph of post #10. Despite the rumor of them not speaking till 1938, I pointed out how that was untrue apparently due to them appearing in a theatrical skit together in 1929. Plus, as Rob pointed out, there is the 1923 photo that is of Tinker, Evers, and Chance to supposedly show they did get together for at least one other possible group photo.

Maybe Pete can weigh in on teeth. Here's the back of the photo in question. It's interesting that the only id is "Chance". Maybe because it was for West Coast publication, and Chance was regionally more famous, or maybe the person who wrote, "Chance" thought the other id's were more obvious.

I hope LOTG's expert chimes in with his thoughts, or anyone else.

Yeah Rob, this is a great thread. I still don't know for sure if it is or isn't Tinker in the LOTG thread. And without some additional info or source surfacing, we'll likely never know for sure one way or the other. But with all the additional info and pictures Bryan keeps posting, I have to admit to leaning more and more to it not being Tinker in the LOTG photo.

One thing I am a bit surprised about is no one mentioning or commenting on my contribution regarding the possible height difference between Tinker and Evers. I thought that LOTG photo clearly shows Tinker as being shorter than Evers, despite them both supposedly being the same height. And then looking at the 1923 picture and using the ears and seats in the background as a reference, that photo appears to show the two of them as being about the same height, which they should be. That, to me, is an even more clear indication that they may not be the same person over the perceived differences in facial features or teeth. The photo quality and one person with a cigar in their mouth and the other without, can possibly distort or obscure things to some extent. But the height, especially when factoring in the seats behind them in the 1923 photo, is really convincing to me. Now we can't really see the chairs they are sitting on in the LOTG photo, so we can only assume they are all of equal height. Obviously, the stadium seats in the 1923 photo are all of equal height, so at least that is a given. You just have to take all these different points and factors, put them together, and then weight them in your own mind to decide if you believe it is Tinker in both photos, or not. Great stuff!

Tinker clearly has bright blue eyes in the Thompson photo, I just don't see that in the subject photo. It's not him.

Also, look at the body language. The guy in the middle has a confident grin and has his left hand draped on the guy on the lefts left shoulder like he's his brother-in-law, or school day's buddy. The three are acting like 3 bffs.

The guy in the middle has a ring on his left hand, maybe a diamond ring. I wonder if there are other photos of Tinker that show that same ring.

Bob and Phil, good points about height and eye color. B&W photography can produce some artistic interpretation.