Dave Parker - HOF?

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Jim65

The Frisch selections were horrible. The 2 worst selections off the top of my head are Phil Rizzuto and Bill Mazeroski. The first player I would remove would be Cap Anson.

I'm more okay with Mazeroski than Rizzuto. Rizzuto is about the same as Al Dark. Nobody wants to elect Al Dark.

The last choice is politics. If people who do not meet the prevailing social standards of the present are not allowed to be honored, the HOF itself probably cannot reasonably exist at all.

[Jason19th]

I think the evolution of Cap Anson is a interesting story that needs to be thought about. While he was clearly racist there is some evidence that he had some growth on the issue. From 1907 until 1910ish Anson sponsored, managed and occasionally played for a team called Anson’s Colts which played in the racially integrated Chicago semi pro league. The league had all white teams, all black teams and often played exhibitions with mixed race Cuban teams. There is also some evidence that Anson formed a friendship or at least a relationship of mutual respect with Rube Walker. I am not saying that he had a full conversion and should be treated as a civil rights champion, but as is often the case the reality is a bit more complicated then the sound bite

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Jason19th

I think the evolution of Cap Anson is a interesting story that needs to be thought about. While he was clearly racist there is some evidence that he had some growth on the issue. From 1907 until 1910ish Anson sponsored, managed and occasionally played for a team called Anson’s Colts which played in the racially integrated Chicago semi pro league. The league had all white teams, all black teams and often played exhibitions with mixed race Cuban teams. There is also some evidence that Anson formed a friendship or at least a relationship of mutual respect with Rube Walker. I am not saying that he had a full conversion and should be treated as a civil rights champion, but as is often the case the reality is a bit more complicated then the sound bite

Never let nuance, complexity or facts get in the way of a regurgitated political sound bite narrative.

[John1941]

Originally Posted by G1911

I'm more okay with Mazeroski than Rizzuto. Rizzuto is about the same as Al Dark. Nobody wants to elect Al Dark.

Rizzuto was way better than Dark because of his great fielding. Dark wasn't that much better as a batter (98 OPS+ vs. 93 OPS+), but Rizzuto was way better as a fielder. He moved to third base by the end of his career, and BR rates Rizzuto as 95 runs better than Dark as a fielder, if you include the positional adjustments.

Al Dark is probably underrated though.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by John1941

Rizzuto was way better than Dark because of his great fielding. Dark wasn't that much better as a batter (98 OPS+ vs. 93 OPS+), but Rizzuto was way better as a fielder. He moved to third base by the end of his career, and BR rates Rizzuto as 95 runs better than Dark as a fielder, if you include the positional adjustments.

Al Dark is probably underrated though.

Dark oWAR: 42.4
Rizzuto oWAR: 29.6

Dark dWAR: 12.2
Rizzuto dWAR: 23.0

Dark WAR: 43.8
Rizzuto WAR: 42.2

Dark slashed .289/.333/.411, Rizzuto .273/.351/.355

Dark did move to 3B when he got old, but his career was also longer. Rizzuto was a better fielder, but they are very similar players on the whole, and many of the modern analytics give more value to Dark's career than Rizzuto. Yankees get more press clippings and Rizzuto was a stud in 1950, but it's very debatable which was better. I don't think either belong, but they are direct contemporaries in the same city at the same position in the same time, and Rizzuto comes out lower by a lot of the modern stats.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

I always thought that if Dark had stayed a Giant his whole career there might have been a catchy song written "Pee Wee, Darkie and the Scoot"

Of course Pee Wee left both of them in the shade as a much more complete ballplayer.

[John1941]

Originally Posted by G1911

Dark oWAR: 42.4
Rizzuto oWAR: 29.6

Dark dWAR: 12.2
Rizzuto dWAR: 23.0

Dark WAR: 43.8
Rizzuto WAR: 42.2

Dark slashed .289/.333/.411, Rizzuto .273/.351/.355

Dark did move to 3B when he got old, but his career was also longer. Rizzuto was a better fielder, but they are very similar players on the whole, and many of the modern analytics give more value to Dark's career than Rizzuto. Yankees get more press clippings and Rizzuto was a stud in 1950, but it's very debatable which was better. I don't think either belong, but they are direct contemporaries in the same city at the same position in the same time, and Rizzuto comes out lower by a lot of the modern stats.

Rizzuto certainly doesn't have overwhelming credentials, and I wouldn't mind much if he wasn't in the Hall, but he did miss three years to WWII, and taking that into account it's closer.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by John1941

Rizzuto certainly doesn't have overwhelming credentials, and I wouldn't mind much if he wasn't in the Hall, but he did miss three years to WWII, and taking that into account it's closer.

I think he's in because he's a Yankee and because of his post-career career.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I think he's in because he's a Yankee and because of his post-career career.

Yup. I think Rizzuto is a good example that your post career contributions to baseball, do have a say in whether you get elected or not.

He was a beloved announcer in New York for decades after his career was over.

Maybe he wasn't a HOF announcer, or a HOF player, but put them together, and maybe he equals a very worthy HOF'er.

Plenty will argue that's not how things are done. I'd argue they are...and Rizzuto and Joe Torre are just two examples of it. It's just not acknowledged.

Just so happened that Rizzuto got in as a player and Torre a manager...but we know, they both got in for more then that in combination.

Also, the MVP and 3 years of prime production lost to the military, don't hurt either.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

Yup. I think Rizzuto is a good example that your post career contributions to baseball, do have a say in whether you get elected or not.

He was a beloved announcer in New York for decades after his career was over.

Maybe he wasn't a HOF announcer, or a HOF player, but put them together, and maybe he equals a very worthy HOF'er.

Plenty will argue that's not how things are done. I'd argue they are...and Rizzuto and Joe Torre are just two examples of it. It's just not acknowledged.

Just so happened that Rizzuto got in as a player and Torre a manager...but we know, they both got in for more then that in combination.

Also, the MVP and 3 years of prime production lost to the military, don't hurt either.

The interlude in Paradise by the Dashboard Light should have disqualified Rizzuto.

[SteveMitchell]

Well said, D. Bergin. Many outstanding players went on to coach, manage, broadcast, administrate, umpire and even (shudder) write Baseball, making them Hall of Fame worthy for a lifetime of service to the game. Buck O'Neill recently was elected and Lefty O'Doul has been long overlooked. With a free afternoon, dozens of others could be cited including another 2022 HOF man: Jim Kaat.

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

Yup. I think Rizzuto is a good example that your post career contributions to baseball, do have a say in whether you get elected or not.

He was a beloved announcer in New York for decades after his career was over.

Maybe he wasn't a HOF announcer, or a HOF player, but put them together, and maybe he equals a very worthy HOF'er.

Plenty will argue that's not how things are done. I'd argue they are...and Rizzuto and Joe Torre are just two examples of it. It's just not acknowledged.

Just so happened that Rizzuto got in as a player and Torre a manager...but we know, they both got in for more then that in combination.

Also, the MVP and 3 years of prime production lost to the military, don't hurt either.

[egri]

Originally Posted by John1941

Rizzuto certainly doesn't have overwhelming credentials, and I wouldn't mind much if he wasn't in the Hall, but he did miss three years to WWII, and taking that into account it's closer.

Dark lost a few years as well; he went into the Marines in 1943 and didn't get out until July of 1946.