T206 Reference / Reflections.....Tuesday Nite Trivia

[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 REFERENCE...Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *


....Sweet Caporal ...... Sovereign ......... Piedmont_____The "House" that created these Tobacco cards_____ Sovereign…. American Beauty .…. UZIT


[/B]This thread will provide references to major contributions posted on Net54 these past 14 years that have formed a better understanding of "The Monster" [as Bill Heitman
so aptly coined his T206 book (circa 1980)].

Let's start with the 2005-2006 publication of Scot Reader's Inside T206
An excellent, very informative, and well written book that inspired many of us Net54ers to post our experiences and theory's regarding the complexities of the T206 series.

One of the early and very significant T206 threads was posted in June 2006 by Barry Arnold, titled T206 EPDG- - - how rare in your collection ?
This thread sparked lots of brainstorming among Net54ers regarding T206's. It included surveys; and, various aspects of the T206 series were explored.....resulting in 363
meaningful posts. Furthermore, between many of us Net54ers, this thread was...."the beginning of a beautiful friendship" (to quote Humphrey Bogart in Casablanca).

In the Summer of 2006, Bill Brown posted his T206 Super-Set (excel) spreadsheet. Bill received 1000's of inputs from Net54ers for this spreadsheet. It was a great start
in the pursuit of what a T206 "master" set would be comprised of....T206 Super-Set

Sept 2007, I started a thread titled Joe Doyle NAT'L and it's 11 "cousins"....SURVEY to explore certain PIEDMONT 350 cards that I considered as rare as the Joe Doyle
"error" card. I eventually referred to these particular T206's as the Elite 11


Subsequent posts in this thread will expand on theory's regarding the structure of the T206 series and the front/back permutations that have resulted. A fair number of the
theory's presented on Net54 (since 2006) have withstood the test of time. Providing accurate lists of which front/back combos were printed. And, which ones are No-Prints.

So, stay tuned......many more T206 "oldies but goodies" References and Reflections will be posted here.

And, feel free to contribute any meaningful T206 stories, or experiences collecting T206's that you have.

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ___________________________________

INDEX

Post #1......Introduction....plus Scot Reader's " Inside T206 " book, and 3 significant T206 threads (circa..2006) for starters.

Set your user settings to display 50 posts per Page. Then click on the topic of interest, then scan page for Post # noted.


Post #2......The beginning of the six "Super-Prints"

Post #4......SOVEREIGN phantom "350/460" series (apple green cards)

Post #5......350/460 series backs identified

Post #8......350/460 series mutually-exclusive cards

Post #22.....T206 Plank mystery

Post #25.....T206 DRUM's...."A-B-C-D" connection

Post #26.....A-B-C-D connection expanded

Post #28.....1910 COUPON (T213-1) sub-set

Post #30.....Ty Cobb / Ty Cobb back

Post #31.....T206 Checklists....plus 1910 COUPON, T215-1 and Ty Cobb/Ty Cobb

Posts #33 & 34.....Richard Russell's unique T206 collection

Posts #35 - 36 & 38.....Exclusive 12 group (460-only series)

Post #39.....AMERICAN BEAUTY 350 No Frame subjects = DRUM subjects

Posts #44 & 48.....Collecting T206 sets....tell us your story's

Post #54.....T206 all-PIEDMONT set

Post #65......SOVEREIGN set story

Post #69......SWEET CAPORAL, Factory #30 set story

Posts #72 & 74......AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 adventure

Posts #76 - 77......T206 cards RE-FRONTED (or re-backed)....FAKE's !

Post #93.....T206 "Proofs"

Post #96.....UZIT checklist

Post #97.....Spring of 1911....T206 era ends....the start of the "Golden era" begins

Post #98.....ATC Factory's associated with the White-Bordered cards (1909 - 1911)

Posts #101 & 106.....BROAD LEAF 460 checklist

Post #107.....Hobby greats....Frank Nagy and Bill Heitman

Post #108.....CAROLINA BRIGHTS checklist

Post #124.....PIEDMONT 460, Factory #42 checklist

Posts #128 - 131.....Why are Connie Mack, Jack Coombs, Shoeless Joe Jackson, Smoky Joe Wood missing in the T206 set ?

Posts #134 & 138.....Timeline of the T206 POLAR BEAR cards

Post #144.....T206 OLD MILL (Major League series) cards

Post #146..... T206 OLD MILL Southern League cards

Post #161.....Southern League cards (continued)

Post #162.....T206 Southern Leaguers Brown OLD MILL cards

Post #171.....The mysterious T206 brown LENOX cards

Post #181.....SWEET CAPORAL 460, Factory #30 backs (w/o Factory #42 overprint)

Post #190.....El Principe de Gales T206 cards

Post #196.....SWEET CAPORAL 350-460, Factory #42 overprint cards

Post #198.....Regional source of the Elite 11 cards

Posts #201 >> 227.....Show-n-tell us of your favorite T206's

Posts #231 >> 248.....Show-n-tell us of your T206 Run(s)

Posts #263 >> 276.....T206 color printing errors......let's see some of these interesting T206's

Posts #282 >> 294.....The mysterious nature of the Red HINDU cards

Posts #302 >> 316.....Show-n-tell us of your MAGIE cards

Posts #328 >> 333.....T206 150-only subjects......

Posts #334 >> 346.....T206 TRIVIA QUIZ....1st correct answer wins T206

Posts #353 >> 358.....PIEDMONT set structure & checklist

Posts #360 >> 366.....T206 TRIVIA QUIZ....1st correct answer wins T206

Post #368.....Reminiscing about T206's in 2005

Post #378.....Remembering Jantz Morey

Posts #379 >> 385.....T206 TRIVIA QUIZ....1st correct answer wins T206

Posts #386 >> 402.....T206 printed sheet structure

Posts #405 >> 440.....Show us your BROAD LEAF 350 cards

Posts #441 >> 450.....Comparable printing patterns of the T206's and T205's

Posts #453 >> 467.....Guess the price of a near complete T206 set

Posts #469 >> 470.....Guess the selling price of a COMPLETE SOVEREIGN set

Posts #471 >> 474.....Guess selling price of a near complete PIEDMONT set

Posts #476 >> 479.....Guess selling price of a complete SWEET CAP, F#30 set

Posts #481 >> 515.....Show-n-Tell us of your T206 "finds"

Posts #516 >> 536....."Bang the DRUM Slowly" while showing us your DRUM cards

Posts #537 >> 551.....Guess how many Demmitt & O'Hara St Louis cards exist ?

Posts #553 >> 554.....FYI: T206 rosters of the 16 Major League teams

Posts #561 >> 570.....FYI: T206 rosters of the 16 Major League teams

Posts #571 >> 572.....FYI: 350 Series Minor Leaguer's checklist and trivia

Posts #573 >> 573.....T206 Southern League cards illustrated

Posts #574 >> 579.....T206 "Monster" obsession ? ....Check-out this one !

Posts #580 >> 597.....Do the T215-1 cards belong in the T206 set ?

Posts #598 >> 600.....Any guesses why no CHESTERFIELD or LUCKY STRIKE T-cards ?

Posts #601 >> 603.....Any guesses why no CHESTERFIELD or LUCKY STRIKE T-cards ?

Posts #605 >> 621.....the TOLSTOI story

Posts #622 >> 623.....Meet me at Philly, we can Talk T206's

Posts #624 >> 635.....CYCLE 460 checklist

Posts #636 >> 650.....The "MONSTER" Master Set achievement

Posts #651 >> 664.....The "MONSTER" Master Set achievement

Posts #665 >> 669.....UPGRADING T206 cards

Posts #671 >> 674.....And then, there are times to down-grade your T206's

Posts #675 >> 692.....Black LENOX checklist

Posts #693 >> 697.....Check-out Jamie B's multi-brand T206 card

Posts #698 >> 700.....Revisting the mysterious Ty Cobb card with TY COBB back

Posts #701 >> 713.....Reprising the Ty Cobb / TY COBB card debate

Posts #714 >> 726.....CYCLE 350 checklist..... where have all the CYCLE 350 cards gone ?

Posts #727 >> 741.....the enigmatic Lajoie (with bat)..... Post your inputs and/or cards

Posts #742 >> 750.....The elusive ELITE 11....show them, if you have them

Posts #751 >> 760.....The elusive ELITE 11....show them, if you have them

Posts #761 >> 800.....How do you collect T206's: Graded or Ungraded ?...show us your cards

Posts #801 >> 821.....How do you collect T206's: Graded or Ungraded ?...show us your cards

Posts #824 >> 832.....Possible sources of the T206 Wagner cards

Posts #833 >> 850.....T206 BLANK-BACKS...if you have them, post them here

Posts #851 >> 853.....T206 BLANK-BACKS...if you have them, post them here

Posts #854 >> 883.....What backs are your favorite(s), and do you collect runs of them ?

Posts #884 >> 900.....Group of 36 subjects (350 Series) that are CB, EPDG, OM, PB NO-PRINTS

Posts #901 >> 916.....Group of 36 subjects (350 Series) that are CB, EPDG, OM, PB NO-PRINTS

Posts #917 >> 944.....MISSION (99%) ACCOMPLISHED American Beauty 460 run. Show your favorite run

Posts #945 >> 950.....Red Ink "Twins" > HINDU and SWEET CAPORAL 350-460 Factory #42 cards

Posts #951 >> 961.....Red Ink "Twins" > HINDU and SWEET CAPORAL 350-460 Factory #42 cards

Posts #962 >> 984.....Possible sources of the T206 Wagner cards (Re-visited)

Posts #985 >> 1000....... the "poor man's" T206 Joe Doyle "Nat'L" card

Posts #1001 >> 1002..... the "poor man's" T206 Joe Doyle "Nat'L" card

Posts #1004 >> 1034.....Reminiscing about your 1st BB card Show where you acquired T206's

Posts #1035 >> 1050.....Show T206's with same name on top or different player's name on top

Posts #1051 >> 1066.....Show T206's with same name on top or different player's name on top

Posts #1068 >> 1070.....Imagine the T206 guys come alive, great read about the 1904 season

Posts #1071 >> 1086....."pet peeves" regarding certain T206's...and tell us of your's ?

Posts #1087 >> 1100.....Unique Antique CAR(ds).....Show us your "One of a Kind" T206(s)

Posts #1101 >> 1116.....Unique Antique CAR(ds).....Show us your "One of a Kind" T206(s)


In this thread, I've tried to present some very complex aspects of the Series structure of the T206 set in a style which is understandable to most of the T206 collectors.
However, if not clear, don't be shy about asking questions. Post your questions on this thread. Or, email me directly with your questions.... tedzan11@comcast.net
In either event, I will gladly do my best to provide you clear and meaningful answer(s).


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

Southpaw pitcher Bill Burns had a similar pitching style as Eddie Plank, which was a "crossfire" motion (that really
rattled Ty Cobb). Burns pitched for 5 different teams during his 5-year career (1908 - 1912) in the Major Leagues.
Burns was one of the group of men who allegedly participated in the "Black-Sox" scandal in the 1919 World Series.





TED Z
.

[tedzan]

And, here are two more double same name cards.....and, two single name on top cards.






Still waiting for you guys to display your cards.


TED Z
.

[stutor]

This one has been posted here before...but not while I've owned it.

[RCMcKenzie]

Here's a Hannifan almost no-name that I've had for a while..and a Crawford almost 2 names

[tedzan]

Sonny and Rob

Great cards, thanks for posting them.

The Beaumont with Seymour on top is real gem.


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

Giving this thread a friendly bump with another double same name T206. And, perhaps some of you will add to this gallery of anomalies.





TED Z
.

[Ronnie73]

This is one topic I don't think I have anything to share. Mainly because I purposely stayed away from miscut cards. I might have a couple minor one's but would have to dig out the cards and devote a day to see what I might have. I do have plans to scan the fronts and backs of all my T206's and share them on a website for everyone to see but that might turn out to be a winter project. Plus I'm still working on my T205 website and a T59 Flags site as well.

Future websites:

myt206.com
t205resource.com
t59flags.com

[tedzan]

Hi Ron

I am looking forward to seeing your T205Resource website again. Perhaps you can give me a ballpark figure of how many T205's were printed
with the PIEDMONT Factory #42 back ?

I've recently picked up a bunch of them; and, was wondering how many would be in a run (if I was foolish enough to take on this challenge) ?


. .


TED Z
.

[BBT206]

dahlenbo.pd150.wag.jpg

[Ronnie73]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Hi Ron

I am looking forward to seeing your T205Resource website again. Perhaps you can give me a ballpark figure of how many T205's were printed
with the PIEDMONT Factory #42 back ?

I've recently picked up a bunch of them; and, was wondering how many would be in a run (if I was foolish enough to take on this challenge) ?

TED Z
.

I don't have my checklists complete yet but the Piedmont 42's are in the mid 70's. I just listed a group of T205's for sale that included 10 different Piedmont 42's.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by BBT206

Attachment 416024

Hi Bill

Very nice Dahlen....with Wagner on top, you have both Boston teams represented. Boston Nat'L on the bottom and Boston American on the top.
Thanks for posting this card.


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

And, here's another double-same-name T206. Barely legible; however, under magnification, the top name is the same.





TED Z
.

[runandgun]

This site is amazing as far as the work done to identify so many rare issues. I did discover a brand new BL 460 according to the list I just viewed. It is a Magee. I’ll post an image of it a bit later. Thanks for all you do.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by runandgun

This site is amazing as far as the work done to identify so many rare issues. I did discover a brand new BL 460 according to the list I just viewed. It is a Magee. I’ll post an image of it a bit later. Thanks for all you do.

Hi runandgun

I appreciate your compliments.

I checked out your post today, and I must say that the Magee BROAD LEAF 460 card is absolutely amazing.

I added it to my BROAD LEAF 460 confirmed list in Post #101 in this thread.

Thanks, again.


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

Near the end of the T206 press runs (circa late 1910-early 1911), American Lithographic separated the 63 subjects in the 350/460 series into two print groups. I have
identified these 2 groups as A and B.

Illustrated here are the 35 subjects that were theoretically printed with the BROAD LEAF 460 back. To date, 29 of them are confirmed with the BROAD LEAF 460 backs.

Identified here are the 6 subjects from Group A that have yet to be discovered with BROAD LEAF 460 backs. I expect that these 6 guys will eventually be discovered with
the BROAD LEAF 460 back.

Group A ......

---------- Ames --------------------------------------------- Bender -------- ------------------------------------ Chance ------------------- Chase ------------------ Chase
.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- L. Doyle










TED Z

T206 REFERENCE....convenient access to T206 checklists
.

[tedzan]

Mistaken bump.

[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 REFERENCE....Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *


.... Sweet Caporal ..... Sovereign ......... Piedmont_____The "House" that created these Tobacco cards_____Old Mill ............ red Hindu ...... American Beauty


There are a number of great books about the early days of BaseBall. And, of course one of the best is..... " The Glory of Their Times ", by Lawrence Ritter.
The book I really enjoy reading as well is..... " The Year They Called Off The World Series ", by Benton Stark.
Benton Stark is very descriptive in his stories of each player, your mind will visualize them playing the game.

The 1904 season was a series of unbelievable events of which we have not seen the likes of in BaseBall ever since.

Here's a list of T206 guys from the three teams that were in contention at the end of the 1904 season. All together there are approx. 70 players which are
featured in the T206 set....that as you read about each one of them....they become alive in your mind.

NY Highlanders

"Happy Jack" Chesbro (Won 41 Games)
Clark Griffith
Al Orth
Jack Powell
Wid Conroy
Patsy Dougherty [traded from Boston (AL) to NY (AL) on June 17, 1904]
Kid Elberfeld
John Ganzel
Willie Keeler
Red Kleinow
Jimmy Williams


NY Giants

John McGraw
Christy Mathewson
Joe McGinnity
Dummy Taylor
Hooks Wiltse
Red Ames
Frank Bowerman
Roger Bresnahan
George Browne
Bill Dahlen
Art Devlin
"Turkey Mike" Donlin
Jack Dunn
Billy Gilbert
Moose McCormick
Dan McGann


Boston Pilgrims

Denton "Cy" Young
Bill Dineen
Jesse Tannehill
Jimmy Collins
Patsy Dougherty (traded to NY AL)
Hobe Ferris
Freddy Parent
Chick Stahl
Bob Unglaub


TED Z

T206 REFERENCE....convenient access to T206 checklists
.

[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 REFERENCE....Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *


.... Sweet Caporal ..... Sovereign ......... Piedmont_____The "House" that created these Tobacco cards_____Old Mill ............ red Hindu ...... American Beauty
........... 150 .................. 150 ................... 150


So, no World Series played in 1904, but there was joy in "Mudville".... because the Buffalo Bisons of the Eastern League defeated the American Association's St. Paul Saints,
2 games to 1. Buffalo was the 1904 "World Champions". This event was referred to as the "Junior World Series".

I acquired this very rare beauty in Cooperstown (circa 1991) from a customer who came to the HOF weekend BB card Show. He found the T206 cards he was looking for at
my table. So, I traded him several T206 stars for this classic 1904 piece of BaseBall history.

I have searched for about 34 years to find another one of these 1904 Buffalo team cards. But, no luck. I'm curious, if any of you have one, or have seen one ?





TED Z
.

[tedzan]

Well, it's been at least a week since I posted my Buffalo Bisons piece. I was hoping for some response regarding this, or any other related artifacts.

I do not think this piece is unique, yet after searching for 34 years for another like it, I'm now beginning to wonder.

Again, I would really appreciate any information.


TED Z

T206 REFERENCE....convenient access to T206 checklists
.

[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reflections, Theories, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * *




Approx 90% of the PIEDMONT 150 cards of the green portrait Cobb are found off-center (to the top). Furthermore, the Cy Young portrait with the PIEDMONT 150 back
is usually off-center (to the top). I can attest to this, having sampled over 400 cards of each of these T206 subjects since 2005.

You may ask why I am concerned over this ? Why not just select a PIEDMONT 350 Cobb (which is usually well-centered). Simply stated, just call me a perfectionist, who
insists on having well-centered PIEDMONT 150 Cobb and Cy Young card in the 150 Series section of my all-PIEDMONT set. Quaint thinking, perhaps, but that's just me.
I've had this Cobb for many years. It's one of the best looking T206's in my collection. Eventually, I intend to get it graded. My guess is that it will get a high #.

The green Cobb and the Cy Young portrait were most likely printed in the top row of their sheet. And, these early PIEDMONT sheets were mis-cut resulting in the narrow
top borders on the cards located on their top row.
American Lithographic (ALC) printed the PIEDMONT brand first in press runs of T206 backs (on the preprinted sheets of T206 fronts). Proof of this process is revealed by
the Magie and Joe Doyle error cards. The Magie is ONLY a PIEDMONT 150 card, and the Doyle error is ONLY a PIEDMONT 350 card.

Having said all that, I'm curious....do any of you serious T206 collectors have similar "pet peeves" regarding certain T206 cards ?


If so, show-n-tell about your T206 "peeves"



TED Z

T206 REFERENCE....convenient access to T206 checklists
.

[MVSNYC]

Ted (Hi Ted), I think collectors opt for the OC Green Cobb in the 150 series (versus 350) because the ink and clarity is always better. Maybe Cy too.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by tedzan

* * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reflections, Theories, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * *




Approx 90% of the PIEDMONT 150 cards of the green portrait Cobb are found off-center (to the top). Furthermore, the Cy Young portrait with the PIEDMONT 150 back
is usually off-center (to the top). I can attest to this, having sampled over 400 cards of each of these T206 subjects since 2005.

You may ask why I am concerned over this ? Why not just select a PIEDMONT 350 Cobb (which is usually well-centered). Simply stated, just call me a perfectionist, who
insists on having well-centered PIEDMONT 150 Cobb and Cy Young card in the 150 Series section of my all-PIEDMONT set. Quaint thinking, perhaps, but that's just me.
I've had this Cobb for many years. It's one of the best looking T206's in my collection. Eventually, I intend to get it graded. My guess is that it will get a high #.

The green Cobb and the Cy Young portrait were most likely printed in the top row of their sheet. And, these early PIEDMONT sheets were mis-cut resulting in the narrow
top borders on the cards located on their top row.
American Lithographic (ALC) printed the PIEDMONT brand first in press runs of T206 backs (on the preprinted sheets of T206 fronts). Proof of this process is revealed by
the Magie and Joe Doyle error cards. The Magie is ONLY a PIEDMONT 150 card, and the Doyle error is ONLY a PIEDMONT 350 card.

Having said all that, I'm curious....do any of you serious T206 collectors have similar "pet peeves" regarding certain T206 cards ?


If so, show-n-tell about your T206 "peeves"



TED Z

T206 REFERENCE....convenient access to T206 checklists
.

They were definitely in the top row of some of the piedmont 150 sheets

Young Large Top Border.jpg

but they weren't just in the top row

Young (Port) Split Front PD 150.jpg

Cobb.jpg

they are both also on the same piedmont 150 plate scratch sheets. This isn't
necessarily the full sheet but it is the minimum size of the sheet based on
lining all the known plate scratches of these subjects up.

0 Sheet 2B.jpg

Your Cobb does have a plate scratch and the scratch lines up here on the sheet

01 Sheet 2B.jpg

[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reflections, Theories, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * *




Pat R

I really appreciate your very informative response to my post regarding the PIEDMONT 150 green Cobb and Cy Young.....very, very interesting.


TED Z

T206 REFERENCE....convenient access to T206 checklists
.

[Rhotchkiss]

All those guys were on same sheet? That is one hell of a sheet!

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

All those guys were on same sheet? That is one hell of a sheet!

It is a sheet with a lot of great players and I believe Wagner might have been on the same sheet for a short period.

https://www.net54baseball.com/showth...ighlight=strip

[brianp-beme]

The artistry overall seen in the T206 set is really nice, but for some reason the cards that are not at that same level really bug me. Here is an example of one. Emil Batch. It would be interesting to find out if anyone but a relative or Rochester collector would even think of collecting a back run of him. As seen by the photo, perhaps the artist didn't have much to work with, but still he didn't have to make him into such an egghead.

Brian (card not mine, but, as I hang my head in shame, I admit to having one)

[tedzan]

Hey guys,
I have to differ with you.

The T206 Honus Wagner is a 150-only Series subject. All the subjects on the sheet in Post #1073 are 150/350 Series subjects.
Therefore, it is impossible that Wagner was printed on that sheet with those cards.

Furthermore, this 5 card strip.....



......is NOT an authentic production piece. It is simply a strip of "proof" cards which American Lithographic (ALC) put together.
The story goes that ALC did this, gave it to Wagner in order to persuade him to permit them to print his image on T206 cards.

Note....that Brown, Bowerman, Kling and Cy Young cards are missing colors on their uniforms. This certainly tells us that this
strip is not a standard production piece.


TED Z

T206 REFERENCE....convenient access to T206 checklists
.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Hey guys,
I have to differ with you.

The T206 Honus Wagner is a 150-only Series subject. All the subjects on the sheet in Post #1073 are 150/350 Series subjects.
Therefore, it is impossible that Wagner was printed on that sheet with those cards.

Furthermore, this 5 card strip.....



......is NOT an authentic production piece. It is simply a strip of "proof" cards which American Lithographic (ALC) put together.
The story goes that ALC did this, gave it to Wagner in order to persuade him to permit them to print his image on T206 cards.

Note....that Brown, Bowerman, Kling and Cy Young cards are missing colors on their uniforms. This certainly tells us that this
strip is not a standard production piece.


TED Z

T206 REFERENCE....convenient access to T206 checklists
.

I don't understand this reasoning, all of the other 150 only subjects were
pulled prior to the transition to the 350 printing except for Brown (Chicago),
Magie and Wagner. Wagner was pulled quickly so I don't think it's a stretch
to say he was on a sheet with 150/350 subjects and it's
almost certain that he was. You yourself have stated many times that you
think he was on the same sheet as Plank who is a 150/350 subject.

I only stated that he might have been on this sheet based on the Wagner strip. I'm not sure what the odds are but they have to be pretty high
that out of 150+ subjects the three subjects from the strip that have confirmed plate scratches are in the exact same position on this plate scratch sheet as they are on the strip.

#2 sheet Wagner strip.jpg

[tedzan]

American Lithographic initially printed 12 subjects on a sheet which were the first T206's (issued circa Spring/Summer 1909). Depicted here are these 12 guys............






The above 10 subjects were issued with these 5 backs......





The Wagner and Plank were printed with PIEDMONT 150 and SWEET CAPORAL 150 (Factory #25 & #30)......but, were issued only with the SWEET CAP brand.

. .




Furthermore, for a very short period, American Litho continued issuing the Plank card (with the SWEET CAPORAL 350 Factory #30 back) against Eddie's wishes.

Eddie Plank was very anti-tobacco (in any form) **


Pat R
You are entitled to your opinion. However, as I see this, the Plank card is a true 150-only Series card. As is the Honus Wagner card.



** Note...... Documented in Connie Mack's Biography (by Norman L. Macht)


TED Z

T206 REFERENCE....convenient access to T206 checklists
.

[Pat R]

Ted

We do have different opinions on many things in the t206 set but it's not
an opinion that Plank is a 150/350 subject it is a fact.

150 only means exactly what it states only printed with 150 series backs.
Not only was Plank printed with a SC350/30 back of all the know examples
there are twice as many SC350/30 backs as there are Piedmont and Sweet
Caporal 150 backs.

In this Plank Gallery of the examples with back images there are 16 PD150
and SC150's and 34 SC350/30's.

http://www.t206resource.com/Plank-Gallery.html

[steve B]

Some cards in the 150's were printed three different times.
And I'm fairly certain that the masters were changed between the 150 and 350 series, and that the first P350's were done on leftover sheets from 150 production.
350's also were redone, maybe also 3 times, but usually the adjustments were less obvious.

The 150, 150/350 thing is a start, but a simplification that we should let go.

[tedzan]

Hey guys,

Well, I am going to repeat here (for those who have not heard this before) what I've mentioned about this subject
several times in the past on this forum. The Plank card is a unique oddity in the T206 set. Here is how it starts......

As I've mentioned above (Post #1080) and numerous times in the past, Eddie Plank disdained any form of tobacco.
He informed ATC that he did not want his image on their Tobacco card. I researched all this years ago, including a
conversation with a Philadelphia lawyer, who informed me that you needed only a "cease and desist" order in 1909
to prevent your image from appearing on anything that offended you. Plank is depicted on numerous E-type Candy
cards during that period. The only other Tobacco card he appears on is the 1909 Ramly. At the end of his Major Lge.
career (circa 1916) he's featured in the T216 Tobacco cards (KOTTON, MINO, VIRGINIA EXTRA brands). These were
not ATC brands. The images on these card are from the printing firm which produced the E90-type cards.

The T206 Plank card cannot be referred to as a "150/350" card since it was NOT printed with any combination of
EPDG, OLD MILL, PIEDMONT 350, SOVEREIGN, TOLSTOI backs (as are most 150/350 subjects). The Plank card is
indeed a 150-only subject. Plank was on the same sheet that the famous Gretzky Wagner was cut from.

American Lithographic printing the Plank card with the SWEET CAP 350 Factory #30 back is most likely the result of
ATC's desire to continue featuring Plank in the T206 set. Plank was very popular by 1908. In his first 8 years he had
167 victories (a remarkable average of 21 games Won per season).

I could continue with more stuff regarding my research into the T206 Plank, however I think enough said for now. I
have more important things to attend to today, than my repetition of stories that I've said before on this forum.


TED Z

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[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reflections, Theories, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * *

Originally Posted by MVSNYC

Ted (Hi Ted), I think collectors opt for the OC Green Cobb in the 150 series (versus 350) because the ink and clarity is always better. Maybe Cy too.

Hi Mike

Very interesting. I only have 150 Series green Cobb's.

Comparing my PIEDMONT 150 and SOVEREIGN 150 green Cobb's, the images and green color appear very similar....and, very nice.






TED Z

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[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reflections, Theories, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * *




In 2007, I completed a basic set of 402 different SOVEREIGN cards in less than 11 months. Having accomplished this, I went on to doing an all - SOVEREIGN master set.
However, I found this challenge to be quite a frustrating experience. Certain 150/350 subjects are very difficult to find with SOVEREIGN 150 backs. Illustrated here is an
example of this enigma. It took me at least 2 years to get the 150 version of this Wiltse card. Other "toughies that come to mind are....Bell, Camnitz, Flick, Fielder Jones,
Weimer, etc. Anyway, I'm on my way to completing this 476-card master set.






TED Z

T206 REFERENCE....convenient access to T206 checklists
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[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reflections, Theories, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * *




I received a couple of emails from Net54 guys, one of which requested a master set checklist for an all - SOVEREIGN set. And, here
it is......

The SOVEREIGN set comprises of 402 different T206 subjects. And, a complete master SOVEREIGN set comprises of 476 cards.


150-only Series..............12 subjects confirmed.



Ames (hands at chest)
M. Brown (Cubs)
G. Browne (Chicago Nat'L)
Burch (batting)
Donlin (fielding)
L. Doyle (throwing)
Evers (Cubs-batting)
Pattee (horizontal)
Pelty (horizontal)
Powers
Reulbach (glove)
Schulte (with bat)


150/350 Series..................138 confirmed with "150 SUBJECTS" backs

Abbaticchio (brown sleeves)
Alperman
Ames (portrait)
Ball (New York)
Bates
Beaumont
Bell (hands over head)
Bender (portrait)
Bergen (bat)
Birmingham
Bowerman
Bradley (portrait)
Bransfield
Bridwell (portrait-no cap)
Bresnahan (portrait)
M. Brown (portrait)
Camnitz (arms folded)
Chance (red portrait)
Chase (pink portrait)
Chase (white cap)

Chesbro
Cicotte
Clarke (portrait)
Clarke (bat)
JJ Clarke
Cobb (green)
Cobb (bat on shoulder)
Conroy (fielding)
Coveleski
Crandall (no cap)
Criger
Criss
Dahlen (Boston Nat'L)
George Davis (Chicago)
Harry Davis (A's)
Delehanty (Washington)
Devlin
Donlin (seated)
Donohue
Donovan (portrait)

Dooin
Doolin
Dougherty (portrait)
Durham
Elberfeld (New York Amer.)
Evers (portrait)
Ewing
Ferris
Flick
Ganley
Gibson
Gilbert
Goode
Griffith (portrait)
Hahn
Hemphill
Herzog (New York Nat'L)
Hinchman (Cleveland)
Isbell
Jacklitsch

Johnson (portrait)
F. Jones (portrait)
F. Jones (hands at hips)
T. Jones (St Louis Amer.)
Jordan (portrait)
Joss (portrait)
Karger
Keeler (portrait)
Keeler (bat)
Killian (pitching)
Kleinow (bat)
Kling
Konetchy (glove high)
Lajoie (portrait)
Lajoie (throwing)
Lake (New York)
Leach (portrait)
Leifield (pitching)
Liebhardt
Lindaman

Lobert
Lumley
Magee (portrait)
Manning (bat)
Marquard (hands at side)
Mathewson (portrait)
Mathewson (white cap)
McGraw (portrait-no cap)
McGraw (pointing)
McIntyre (Brooklyn)
McQuillan (ball in hand)
Merkle (portrait)
Mullin (horizontal)
Murphy (horizontal)
Nicholls (hands on knees)
Niles
Oldring (fielding)
O'Leary (portrait)
Overall (portrait)
Owen

Parent
Pastorius
Powell
Ritchey
Rucker (portrait)
Schaefer (Detroit)
Schlei (catching)
Schmidt (throwing)
Seymour (bat)
Shaw (St Louis Nat'L)
Sheckard (no glove)
Shipke
F. Smith (Chicago)
Spade
Spencer
Stahl (no glove
Steinfeldt (portrait)
Stone
Stovall (portrait)
Sullivan

L Tannehill (Chicago)
Tenney
Tinker (portrait)
Tinker (hands on knees)
Turner
Waddell (portrait)
Waddell (throwing)
Wagner (bat on left)
Wallace
Walsh
Weimer
Doc White (portrait)
Wilhelm (hands at chest)
Williams
Willis (portrait)
Wiltse (portrait-no cap)
CYoung (portrait)
CYoung (bare hand)


150/350 Series..................70 confirmed with "350 SUBJECTS" backs

Abbaticchio (brown sleeves)
Ames (portrait)
Bell (hands over head)
Bender (portrait)
Birmingham
Bridwell (portrait-no cap)
Bresnahan (portrait)
M. Brown (portrait)
Camnitz (arms folded)
Cicotte
Cobb (bat on shoulder)
Crawford (throwing)
Criger
Criss
Devlin
Donlin (seated)
Donohue
Dooin
Dougherty (portrait)
Elberfeld (New York Amer.)

Ferris
Flick
Goode
Griffith (portrait)
Isbell
Jacklitsch
Jennings (portrait)
Johnson (portrait)
F. Jones (portrait)
F. Jones (hands at hips)
Joss (portrait)
Keeler (bat)
Kleinow (bat)
Kling
Lajoie (portrait)
Leifield (pitching)
Liebhardt
Manning (bat)
Mathewson (portrait)
McGraw (portrait-no cap)

McGraw (pointing)
Merkle (portrait)
Murphy (horizontal)
Nicholls (hands on knees)
Niles
Oldring (fielding)
O'Leary (portrait)
Parent
Seymour (bat)
Shaw (St Louis Nat'L)
Sheckard (no glove)
Shipke
F. Smith (Chicago)
Stahl (no glove
Stone
Stovall (portrait)
Sullivan
Tenney
Tinker (hands on knees)
Turner

Waddell (portrait)
Waddell (throwing)
Wallace
Walsh
Weimer
Doc White (portrait)
Willis (portrait)
Wiltse (portrait-no cap)
CYoung (portrait)
CYoung (bare hand)


SOVEREIGN 350-only Series.......... 138confirmed subjects

Abbott
Anderson
Armbruster
Arndt
Atz
Barry (A's)
Barry (Milw)
Batch
Beck
Beckley
Bender (trees)
Bescher (portrait)
Blackburne
Brain
Browne (Washington)
Burke
Burns
Bush
Butler
Byrne

Campbell
Carr
Carrigan
Casey
Cassidy
Chappelle
Clancy
Collins (A's)
Congalton
Cravath
Cree
Dahlen (Brooklyn)
Dineen
Donovan (throwing)
Doolan (fielding)
Downs
Dubuc
Dunn (Baltimore)
Dunn (Brooklyn)
Dygert

Easterly
Egan
Ferguson
Fiene (portrait)
Fiene (throwing)
Flanagan
Fromme
Gasper
Graham (Boston)
Grimshaw
Hall
Hallman
Hannifan
Hartsel
Hinchman (Toledo)
Hoblitzell
Hoffman (Providence)
Hofman
Howard (Chicago)
Howell (portrait)

Huggins (portrait)
Huggins (hands/mouth)
Hulswitt
Jackson
Kelley
Killian (portrait)
Kisinger
Knabe
Knight (portrait)
Knight (bat)
Krause (portrait)
Krause (pitching)
Kroh
Kruger
Lavender
Lennox
Livingstone
Malarkey
Marquard (portrait)
McCormick

McGann
McGinley
McGinnity
McGlynn
McIntyre (Detroit)
Merritt
Milligan
Mitchell (Cinci)
Mitchell (Toronto)
Moeller
Moran (Chicago)
Moran (Providence)
Moriarty
Mowrey
Myers (fielding)
Oakes
Oberlin
O'Brien
O'Hara (NY Nat'L)
O'Neill

Paskert
Perring
Pfeister (seated)
Phelan
Phelps
Pickering
Poland
Purtell
Quillen
Quinn
Randall
Raymond
Rhoades (hands at chest)
Rossman
Schmidt (portrait)
Scott
Shaw (Providence)
Slagle
Smith (Buffalo)
Speaker

Stanage
Stephens
Strang
Street (portrait)
Summers
Sweeney (Boston)
J. Tannehill (Washington)
Taylor
Thielmann
Thomas
Titus
Unglaub
Warhop
White (Buffalo)
Wilson
Wright
Irv Young
Zimmerman


"350/460 Series"...................... 66 subjects (apple green backs)

Ames (hands over head)
Baker
Bender (no trees)
Berger
Bradley (bat)
M. Brown (Chicago)
Burch (fielding)
Chance (yellow portrait)
Chase (blue portrait)
Chase (dark cap)
Cobb (red portrait)
Cobb (bat off shoulder)
Conroy (bat)
Davis (A's)
Crawford (bat)
Donlin (bat)
Doolan (bat)
Dougherty (arm in air)
Downey (bat)
Joe Doyle

Larry Doyle (bat)
Elberfeld (Washington-fielding)
Evers (bat-yellow sky)
Griffith (bat)
Jennings (one hand)
Jennings (both hands)
Johnson (pitching)
Jordan (bat)
Joss (pitching)
Kleinow (New York Amer.)
Konetchy (glove low)
Lajoie (bat)
Lake (no ball)
Leach (cap)
Leifield (bat)
Magee (bat)
Manning (pitching)
Mathewson (dark cap)
McIntyre (Brooklyn & Chicago)
McQuillan (bat)

Mullin (bat)
Murphy (bat)
Nichols (bat)
O'Leary (hands on knees)
Overall (yellow sky)
Pelty (vertical)
Pfeister (throwing)
Reulbach (no glove)
Rhoades (arm extended)
Rucker (throwing)
Seymour (throwing)
F. Smith (Chicago)
Snodgrass (catching)
Stahl (glove)
Steinfeldt (bat)
Street (catching)
Sweeney (fielding)
Tinker (bat off shoulder)
Wagner (bat on right)
White (pitching)

Wilhelm (bat)
Willetts
Willis (bat)
Willis (throwing)
Wiltse (throwing)
CYoung (glove)


460-only Series...................... 46 subjects confirmed

Abbaticchio (blue sleeves)
Ball (Cleveland)
Bell (follow thru)
Bergen (catching)
Bescher (hands over head)
Bridwell (portrait-cap)
Camnitz (hands over head)
Camnitz (arm at side)
Chance (bat)
Chase (trophy)
Crandall (portrait-cap)
Devore
Duffy
Larry Doyle (portrait)
Ford
Frill
Gandil
Geyer
Herzog (Boston)
Howell (hand at waist)

Hummel
Lake, St. Louis (ball)
Latham
Marquard (pitching)
McGraw (portrait-cap)
McGraw (glove at hip)
Merkle (throwing)
Meyers (portrait)
Murray (portrait)
Needham
Oldring (batting)
Overall (blue sky)
Payne
Pfeffer
Schaefer (Washington)
Schlei (portrait)
Schlei (bat)
Schulte (back view)
Seymour (portrait)
Sheckard (glove)

Smith (Brooklyn)
Stovall (bat)
Tannehill (Chicago)
Tinker (bat on shoulder)
Wheat
Wiltse (portrait-cap)


The Six Super-Prints were also printed with SOVEREIGN 460 backs.

Chance (yellow portrait)
Chase (blue portrait)
Chase (dark cap)
Cobb (red portrait)
Evers (Chicago-yellow sky)
Mathewson (dark cap)

.



TED Z

T206 REFERENCE....convenient access to T206 checklists
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[tedzan]

Whoops ! .....I'm really referring to antique CARDS Anyhow, just showing-off this classic from my youth.....the 312 cu.-inch T-bird engine still "purrs".


This Herzog card is one of several unique cards which are (or were) in my T206 collection. The recent provenance of this card dates back to circa 1990's.
My great ole friend, Ralph Triplette, acquired this card from a small BB card shop in his town of Sylva, NC. When I visited him 7 years ago, we did a nice
deal for it.
This Herzog card is still the only one known with a UZIT back.

OK show us your unique T206 card(s). Furthermore the stories regarding these T206's are sometimes very interesting, so feel free to tell us about them.


. .



TED Z

T206 REFERENCE....convenient access to T206 checklists
.

[tedzan]

I acquired this AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 Jennings card quite a number of years ago. Until recently, it was the only one known with an AB 460
back. Now, the PSA pop report has two new ones listed (graded 1.5 and 2).

I sold this card to David Hall several Chicago National Shows ago. So now you'll find this Jennings listed in the PSA pop report as a 5 (David
had it re-graded). And, this same card is still listed in the SGC pop report as a 60 (I had it graded when SGC was in New Jersey, circa 2010).


. .



TED Z

T206 REFERENCE....convenient access to T206 checklists
.

[Rhotchkiss]

Ted, I have several brown old mills, brown Lenox, and an E Collins blank back that are currently 1 of 1. I will try to post tmrw. I have many that are less than 5, and a few that are 1 of 2, but I don’t think I have any more “common” back 1 of 1s.

[RCMcKenzie]

In 2013 I bought this Ames in Sterling. It was described as "unknown and thought to be not possible." I later traded it to a board member who said a few more had surfaced. I got a T205 Bresnahan closed mouth Piedmont 42 for it.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie

In 2013 I bought this Ames in Sterling. It was described as "unknown and thought to be not possible." I later traded it to a board member who said a few more had surfaced. I got a T205 Bresnahan closed mouth Piedmont 42 for it.

Rob.....you got the best of that trade deal. The T206 Ames (SC #42) is not that rare as is the T205 Bresnahan with the PIEDMONT #42 back.

The Ames with a SC 460 Factory #42 was known many years ago. In fact, 35 subjects of the 350/460 series (of which Ames is in this group) are found with this back.
Furthermore, this particular SC back is a "kissing cousin" with the red HINDU back. These 2 backs were printed simultaneously. To date, 33 of this group of 35 subjects
are confirmed with red HINDU backs. But, Ames has yet to be confirmed with the red HINDU back. My prediction is the Ames will discovered with the red HINDU back.


TED Z

T206 REFERENCE....convenient access to T206 checklists
.

[brianp-beme]

I have this Magee that seemed to me to be a card that shouldn't exist (Sweet Caporal 460 factory 30), until I showed it on here and the speculation was that the overstrike was not printed.

So probably a misprint, but I still haven't seen any other like it...

Brian

[RCMcKenzie]

Ted, I was going with the AH's description, I had no knowledge at the time whether it existed or not. I don't think the Resource site had confirmed it in 2013. Maybe Sterling remembers the details. Anyway paid $55 and traded it soon after for the T205.

Here's a Doc Crandall Red Hindu, not a 1/1, but a low pop card. A Uzit popped up on here and I had a couple of chances to bid on it later, but did not.

[RCMcKenzie]

Also, here's a Crandall SC460 42. Sorry to get off track from the 1/1's. I'll try and think if I had or have anything that came close to a 1/1. If I still had my 1980 Fiat or 1973 BMW 2002, I would post those, sadly, they are long ago traded away.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie

Also, here's a Crandall SC460 42. Sorry to get off track from the 1/1's. I'll try and think if I had or have anything that came close to a 1/1. If I still had my 1980 Fiat or 1973 BMW 2002, I would post those, sadly, they are long ago traded away.

Rob

.


American Lithographic printed 47 subjects with the red HINDU back and it's "cousin", SWEET CAPORAL, Factory #42.

350/460 series....35 subjects confirmed with SWEET CAPORAL, Factory #42. To date, 32 of these 35 subjects have
been confirmed with red HINDU.

Ames (hands above head) **
Baker
Bender (no trees)
M. Brown (Chicago)
Chance (portrait-yellow)
Chase (blue)
Chase (dark cap)
Cobb (red portrait)
Davis (A's)
Donlin (bat)
Doolan (bat)
Dougherty (arm in air)
Downey (bat)
Larry Doyle (bat)
Elberfeld (Washington-fielding)
Evers (Chicago-yellow sky)
Griffith (bat)
Johnson (pitching)
Joss (pitching)
Kleinow (Boston)

Konetchy (glove low)
Magee (bat)
Mathewson (dark cap) **
McIntyre (Brooklyn & Chicago)
Murphy (batting)
O'Leary (hands on knees)
Reulbach (no glove) **
Rucker (throwing)
Seymour (throwing)
Snodgrass (catching)
Stahl (glove)
Street (fielding)
Sweeney (fielding)
Willis (throwing)
CYoung (glove)


** Note.... the following 3 subjects have yet to be confirmed with the red HINDU back. My prediction is that all three
will eventually be discovered.

Ames (hands above head)
Mathewson (dark cap)
Reulbach (no glove)


460-only series......Exclusive 12 (confirmed with red HINDU and SWEET CAPORAL, Factory #42.

Crandall (cap)
Devore
Duffy
Ford
Gandil
Geyer
Hummel
McGraw (glove at hip)
Pfeffer
Sheckard (glove)
Tannehill (Chicago)
Wheat


TED Z

T206 REFERENCE....convenient access to T206 checklists
.

[Ronnie73]

I believe these are my only one of one's so far.

T206 Nap Lajoie With Bat - Sweet Caporal 350-460 Factory 30 "No Print"



T206 Jack Powell - Old Mill "Blue Ink" Back

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by tedzan

I acquired this AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 Jennings card quite a number of years ago. Until recently, it was the only one known with an AB 460
back. Now, the PSA pop report has two new ones listed (graded 1.5 and 2).

I sold this card to David Hall several Chicago National Shows ago. So now you'll find this Jennings listed in the PSA pop report as a 5 (David
had it re-graded). And, this same card is still listed in the SGC pop report as a 60 (I had it graded when SGC was in New Jersey, circa 2010).


. .



TED Z

T206 REFERENCE....convenient access to T206 checklists
.

FYI Ted there are a minimum of five Jennings, there are two different PSA 2's
one was graded years ago before they started putting the backs on the
flips. There's also a 2nd SGC 60.

Jennings AB PSA 2 -1.jpg
Jennings AB PSA 2 -2.jpg
Jennings AB SGC 60.jpg
Jennings AB PSA 1.5.jpg

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Pat R

FYI Ted there are a minimum of five Jennings, there are two different PSA 2's
one was graded years ago before they started putting the backs on the
flips. There's also a 2nd SGC 60.

Attachment 425836
Attachment 425837
Attachment 425838
Attachment 425839

The SGC card of Jennings you have displayed is the exactly same one I originally had. This is obvious by the same "diamond cut" on all of three
of these cards on display. Furthermore, it's obvious that it has gone thru a 4th iteration of SGC Grading.

When I acquired it was Graded by SGC as an "A"......

. .

-----------------------

I cracked open the "A" version (card on left) and re-submitted it to SGC (about 10 years ago). Which resulted in the "60" Grade version.

You can trace the progress of these iterative Gradings by simply observing the Serial #s on their flips. Obviously, there was an intermittent
Grading of this card from the one you have displayed, in which it received an "A" grade.

As I have said, I acquired this card with its "A" Grade. I paid a very reasonable price for it (I guess because of this Grade).

I will reprise what I stated (in post #1088)....years ago when I acquired this AB 460 Jennings card, it was the only one known at that time.


TED Z

T206 REFERENCE....convenient access to T206 checklists
.

x

[Pat R]

Ted the SGC 60 you posted is definitely not the same card as the SGC 60 I posted.

[t206fanatic]

I'm the current owner of the Ted / David Jennings, and I agree its a different card than the SGC60 Pat posted.