T206 Reference / Reflections.....Tuesday Nite Trivia

[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 REFERENCE.......Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *




My 3rd experience, which factors into forming my Wagner card theory occurred in 1982. I was set-up at a BB card Show at a Mall in Media, PA. Across from my table was
a Hobby Shop. I was curious as to what kind of goodies they were selling. Boy, I was in for a real surprise. Displayed on the wall of the shop as you entered were 5 uncut
BOWMAN sheets. I asked the Mgr. if they were for sale and what was the price ? The Mgr. replied that a former employee of Zabel Bros. Printers (BOWMAN's printer) had
brought the BB card sheets into the shop just day before, and he would have to do some homework. The following day he came over to my table, looked over my display
of cards and asked me if I would be interested in a cash/trade deal ? I said it sounds good to me. I had a Mantle (1951) rookie which he wanted and 1950's Phillies cards.
So, he got the Mantle and the Phillies cards and some $$, and I took all 5 sheets.

Stay tuned for more info.

I thought you may like to see these sheets (I sold the 1953 BOWMAN sheet, so here are the other four)......












Large card version





TED Z
.

[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 REFERENCE.......Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *




OK getting back to the subject matter here, the most significant original sheet which has surfaced these past 35 years is the one that the Gretzky T206 Honus Wagner card
was hand-cut from. It's a shame that this sheet was not left un-cut for at least a picture of it.
The closest I ever got to a Wagner card was in 1985 at the Willow Grove Show in Pennsylvania. Friday afternoon, before the Show opened, Bill Mastro was shopping around
this famous Wagner card (before it was famous). He was going from room to room at the Lodge, and he came to our room where 4 of us dealers were trading cards. We all
examined this card very closely and were very impressed with it. Bill was asking $30K for it (an unprecedented amount at that time for a BB card).
Besides, after Bill left the room the consensus of our opinions were that it had been hand-cut. The PIEDMONT 150 back intrigued me since 95% of the Wagner cards known
back then had SWEET CAPORAL backs.

Needless to say, this card was the "talk of the Show" all weekend in Willow Grove. Furthermore it was rumored that an Eddie Plank card was Wagner's "sheet-mate". Mastro
did not show it, though (at least not to us guys). Many years later we did get to see this Plank card. It was in Charlie Conlon's collection. And, here it is.......





Hey guys, I would appreciate some responses to what I have presented here. If you think my theory regarding the possibility of Mr. Knapp taking home some Wagner cards
hot off the presses at American Lithographic is sort of "kooky", then I will listen to your story why a fair number of Wagner cards have originated from the NYC area.


TED Z
.

[steve B]

Knapp taking a few cards or sheets home is something that could have happened.

It's also possible that some had been shipped to the cigarette factory for packaging and that a distributor who serviced the Long Island area just happened to have their order filled from packs that had already been packed with the Wagner before it was pulled.

I know I took home a few things from the place I worked. Flourescent orange sticker material trimmed from the sheet of some sticker we printed. A "Danger active class 4 laser range" sign. Some maps of a sewage and drainage system and an airbase.. Interesting stuff. If we had done cards of any kind I would have asked for whatever I could get, and they probably would have let me have most of the production materials as long as the client didn't want them. The only stuff that got saved was the masks an color separations in case of a reorder.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by steve B

Knapp taking a few cards or sheets home is something that could have happened.

It's also possible that some had been shipped to the cigarette factory for packaging and that a distributor who serviced the Long Island area just happened to have their order filled from packs that had already been packed with the Wagner before it was pulled.

I know I took home a few things from the place I worked. Flourescent orange sticker material trimmed from the sheet of some sticker we printed. A "Danger active class 4 laser range" sign. Some maps of a sewage and drainage system and an airbase.. Interesting stuff. If we had done cards of any kind I would have asked for whatever I could get, and they probably would have let me have most of the production materials as long as the client didn't want them. The only stuff that got saved was the masks an color separations in case of a reorder.

Hi Steve
I appreciate your response....."Knapp taking a few cards or sheets home is something that could have happened."

Yes most of us take home "goodies" from our work places. I used to take home Electronic power units, Transistors, and a Magnetron (transmitter unit of a 10-Gigahertz Radar set).

Your 2nd paragraph is not really possible in this situation. The Wagner (Plank, etc.) are PIEDMONT Factory #25 cards that were shipped to the Richmond, Virginia ATC factory #25.
PIEDMONT F#25 cards were inserted in cigarette packs that were marketed in the Southern states & Pennsylvania.
Factory #30 cards (LENOX, SWEET CAP, TOLSTOI, UZIT) were marketed in New York, New Jersey and New England.
Any way, that's my understanding how ATC distributed their various brands.

Take care, Steve


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

Steve B

When you worked in a Print shop, did you guys trash all mis-prints, errors, etc....or, take some with you ?

I had a part-time job in a Print shop during my High School days. Being the "pack-rat" that I am, I would
take home some of the printing rejects. At that age, I was really fascinated by the printing business.


TED Z
.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Steve B

When you worked in a Print shop, did you guys trash all mis-prints, errors, etc....or, take some with you ?

I had a part-time job in a Print shop during my High School days. Being the "pack-rat" that I am, I would
take home some of the printing rejects. At that age, I was really fascinated by the printing business.


TED Z
.

It was also my HS job, part time during school, and full time in the summer. The place cross trained us, and most of the full time guys were able to handle other jobs in the place. Some had started as sweepers.
I eventually worked a bit of time in every department except the front office. I also didn't get to run the paper cutter, but was around them every day.


The other guys as far as I know didn't take any misprints home. A lot of them got turned over and used as make-ready sheets. I took home a few finished things that may have been misprints or may have been just overruns. (Everyone starts printing something like 125 sheets if the order is for 100 ) but no misprints. If they were misprints, the problems were very minor. We were a fairly high quality low production shop. Many jobs were under 10,000 finished pieces.

None of the other guys were at all interested in problems. They knew what caused them, avoided it if possible, and didn't let the bad stuff get delivered.
There was that one time a couple of them made fake concert tickets and sold them to a scalper... I only knew because I found one of the plates when I grabbed it out of the scrap stack to use as a dustpan. But that wasn't defective stuff, just highly irregular.

They were very tolerant of me bringing in a messed up card a couple times and asking " How did this happen?" Although they did think it was weird that I collected cards with printing errors.

If we had printed any sort of cards, or something interesting like that as much of the scrap/plates etc as I could carry/ask for/sneak out would have come home with me.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Hi Steve
I appreciate your response....."Knapp taking a few cards or sheets home is something that could have happened."


Your 2nd paragraph is not really possible in this situation. The Wagner (Plank, etc.) are PIEDMONT Factory #25 cards that were shipped to the Richmond, Virginia ATC factory #25.
PIEDMONT F#25 cards were inserted in cigarette packs that were marketed in the Southern states & Pennsylvania.
Factory #30 cards (LENOX, SWEET CAP, TOLSTOI, UZIT) were marketed in New York, New Jersey and New England.
Any way, that's my understanding how ATC distributed their various brands.

Take care, Steve


TED Z
.

I've never really tried to find out how many of the SC Wagners are factory 30. Just a quick google search found at least two, and a couple SC25s.

The split between factory 30 and 25 and where each was discovered would be really interesting, as the distribution you talk about sounds right.
If there are a lot of 25s coming from long Island or New England, that would be a big point for someone taking sheets or cards home with them.
I think factory 25 must have had some distribution in that area though, when I started being interested, piedmonts were of course common, and made up the bulk of the collections that came in to the local dealer.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by steve B

I've never really tried to find out how many of the SC Wagners are factory 30. Just a quick google search found at least two, and a couple SC25s.

The split between factory 30 and 25 and where each was discovered would be really interesting, as the distribution you talk about sounds right.
If there are a lot of 25s coming from long Island or New England, that would be a big point for someone taking sheets or cards home with them.
I think factory 25 must have had some distribution in that area though, when I started being interested, piedmonts were of course common, and made up the bulk of the collections that came in to the local dealer.

Steve

My theory regarding the distribution is based on several original "finds" that I have been fortunate to acquire, and other "finds" that I was told of by collectors/dealers in the country.
Two of my major PIEDMONT (Factory #25) finds were from South Carolina and Georgia. And, a significant SOVEREIGN (Factory #25) find was from Erie, Pennsylvania.

It would be nice to know the Factory (#25 or #30) breakdown of all the known T206 Wagner cards; and, see how that relates to their place of origin.


TED Z
.

[RCMcKenzie]

Ted, here's an article I read that suggests that there are 57 known, and most of them are SC 150/25. I don't know as I've never really studied this card. I've thought of owning a 52 Mantle or a 33 Lajoie, but never thought I'd own a T206 Wagner...Rob

http://www.cardboardconnection.com/c...6-honus-wagner