PWCC Huigens Now Has a Criminal Defense Attorney

[CuriousGeorge]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Steven thank you for these observations. A couple of reactions. One, Brent's bad activities are so diverse and of such long duration that he is not just the fraudster du jour, he may well be the hobby fraudster of all time when all is said and done. So while yes to some extent my belief that he needs to be punished is colored by my personal disgust towards him, I think an important message needs to be sent to everyone else doing similar shit on a smaller scale. If he pays some restitution and walks, that will not send a message, IMO.

Two, that said, I obviously agree with you that PSA and to a lesser extent the other TPGs have been revealed to be a huge part of the problem. And something clearly needs to be done to bust through the veil of secrecy and denial and disingenuous bullshit they and their supporters keep spewing. But -- and obviously you may have insight where I don't -- do you really see Brent being able to take down PSA? I mean if he was buying graders and is going to confess, that would be one thing, but I would find that hard to believe. Interested in your thoughts on how he could do that otherwise.

Peter, you’re an attorney and must have much more of an ability than someone like I do to look through the forest and see the bigger picture. While we all want to see Brent rot in hell, if we take a step back whether we are buying $20 cards, $200, $2000, $20,000, $200,000 or whatever, we want to feel confident we’re getting what we paid for. As a novice collector I relied on those slabs to guide me, foolishly thinking TPG’s were there to protect me and the investment (cringe) I was making. Obviously I was wrong.

Now I don’t know what Brent knows or doesn’t know. Does he have something on TPG’s or are they just incompetent? If they’re just incompetent are we just supposed to accept that or are there things that can happen to make them accountable for their actions? I know everyone believes this is going to be like every other time something like this has happened in the industry but I don’t believe it will be. It’s only been a couple of months and far more has happened than anyone could have imagined and yet it’s still met with plenty of ambivalence and scorn. It’s a tough crowd to please because we all want it both ways: the perpetrators to pay the maximum price and the problem (grading cards properly) to get improved. Only time will tell how it all will play out but I think if we can somehow look at it objectively, winning one of the battles has far more value than the other. Again, tough to do, but the bigger picture is far more important.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by CuriousGeorge

Peter, you’re an attorney and must have much more of an ability than someone like I do to look through the forest and see the bigger picture. While we all want to see Brent rot in hell, if we take a step back whether we are buying $20 cards, $200, $2000, $20,000, $200,000 or whatever, we want to feel confident we’re getting what we paid for. As a novice collector I relied on those slabs to guide me, foolishly thinking TPG’s were there to protect me and the investment (cringe) I was making. Obviously I was wrong.

Now I don’t know what Brent knows or doesn’t know. Does he have something on TPG’s or are they just incompetent? If they’re just incompetent are we just supposed to accept that or are there things that can happen to make them accountable for their actions? I know everyone believes this is going to be like every other time something like this has happened in the industry but I don’t believe it will be. It’s only been a couple of months and far more has happened than anyone could have imagined and yet it’s still met with plenty of ambivalence and scorn. It’s a tough crowd to please because we all want it both ways: the perpetrators to pay the maximum price and the problem (grading cards properly) to get improved. Only time will tell how it all will play out but I think if we can somehow look at it objectively, winning one of the battles has far more value than the other. Again, tough to do, but the bigger picture is far more important.

Steven I'll accept your premise that PSA is the bigger problem, or the TPGs as a whole. Especially after Orlando's statement today I could not be more disgusted with PSA. It was far worse than Sloan's. And of course I understand that in many cases the government will make a relatively soft deal with a cooperator to get at the more important criminal. I'm just not seeing how going easy on Brent helps the goal of going after PSA. But I'll reflect on it.

One footnote though -- it still takes card doctors and their enablers to bring these cards to market. So it's not like the biggest seller of doctored cards on the planet, and card uhh uhhh conservator himself, isn't still a huge problem.

[CuriousGeorge]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Steven I'll accept your premise that PSA is the bigger problem, or the TPGs as a whole. Especially after Orlando's statement today I could not be more disgusted with PSA. It was far worse than Sloan's. And of course I understand that in many cases the government will make a relatively soft deal with a cooperator to get at the more important criminal. I'm just not seeing how going easy on Brent helps the goal of going after PSA. But I'll reflect on it.

One footnote though -- it still takes card doctors and their enablers to bring these cards to market. So it's not like the biggest seller of doctored cards on the planet, and card uhh uhhh conservator himself, isn't still a huge problem.

Unfortunately I think without regulation there will always be scum like Brent and Moser gaming the system. I can almost assure you that down the road regulation will be there but it might be many years and often when the government gets involved it becomes be careful what you wish for.

For me I know I would love to hear what Brent and Moser have to say about TPG’s. While they are garden variety scammers, I think ultimately TPG’s are the far bigger problem. Why more venom isn’t going towards them and instead to Brent is actually a little head scratching? CLCT stock has actually gone up since this all began. Shows you how worried investors are about what’s happening.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Steven I'll accept your premise that PSA is the bigger problem, or the TPGs as a whole. Especially after Orlando's statement today I could not be more disgusted with PSA. It was far worse than Sloan's. And of course I understand that in many cases the government will make a relatively soft deal with a cooperator to get at the more important criminal. I'm just not seeing how going easy on Brent helps the goal of going after PSA. But I'll reflect on it.

One footnote though -- it still takes card doctors and their enablers to bring these cards to market. So it's not like the biggest seller of doctored cards on the planet, and card uhh uhhh conservator himself, isn't still a huge problem.

Just catching up on the latest. I missed the statement by Orlando and Sloan. What was said, or better yet, is there a link or a thread where this information was made public?

[swarmee]

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1308245

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...ighlight=Sloan

[Jeffrompa]

Except by PSA and PWCC

[Peter_Spaeth]

https://www.actionnetwork.com/genera...tor-convention

[Bicem]

Solid article that even non-hobby people can understand.

[BeanTown]

Is there a place to see the other 50 cards they manipulated the prices along with the dates?

Taken from the article:
Take, for example, a card in the top 100 for PWCC, the 1955 Topps Roberto Clemente card. Clemente is a good example because he is no longer alive, meaning there’s nothing that can really change the perception of his card. Here are the prices reported as sold for a PSA 8 Clemente Rookie:

January 2015 — $29,127
October 2015 — $35,864
May 2016 — $131,450
July 2016 — $150,391
November 2016 — $38,500
November 2018 — $26,400
Why did the price crater in four months in 2016? Because the market-fixers moved on to another card.

This has been done with more than 50 vintage cards (though some of the rises and falls are not as dramatic as the Clemente card) but these cards were in the PWCC index because they were among the most valuable.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by swarmee

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1308245

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...ighlight=Sloan

Thank you for posting those links.

Orlando's statements are utterly mind boggling while Sloan's are still significantly unacceptable. PSA has been aware of the rampant card doctoring for a decade or more and it's indisputably clear that they put forth no effort at all to improve their service quality. Now Orlando in affect dismisses the fraud victims as irrational malcontents.

Does any remember "Pro Grading"? If memory serves me correct, they were deemed as so incompetent for slabbing cards, and were regarded as a "black hole" for trimmed cards. Ebay at one point banned the sale of Pro-graded cards because so many were deemed as bad. In my opinion, PSA deserves the same fate and if Ebay does ban PSA graded cards, then we'll see how much arrogant diatribe Orlando spews out at the public when CU's stock plummets.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by CuriousGeorge

Only time will tell how it all will play out but I think if we can somehow look at it objectively, winning one of the battles has far more value than the other. Again, tough to do, but the bigger picture is far more important.

Suppose, hypothetically, you have people deliberately committing fraud and making huge amounts of money by purposely altering cards and then selling them (at inflated prices) into the mainstream of the hobby, most to never be identified as altered, and on the other hand, you have a few TPG who miss some alterations now and then, which battle is more important to win? Nailing the people who are knowingly initiating this whole mess by committing fraud, or the TPGs who try their best, but sometimes let bad cards through?

It would be nice if the TPG were perfect, but at least they are honestly trying. There is nothing honest about those who are altering and selling cards for fun and profit. Beating the criminals is the battle to win.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by Mark17

Suppose, hypothetically, you have people deliberately committing fraud and making huge amounts of money by purposely altering cards and then selling them (at inflated prices) into the mainstream of the hobby, most to never be identified as altered, and on the other hand, you have a few TPG who miss some alterations now and then, which battle is more important to win? Nailing the people who are knowingly initiating this whole mess by committing fraud, or the TPGs who try their best, but sometimes let bad cards through?

It would be nice if the TPG were perfect, but at least they are honestly trying. There is nothing honest about those who are altering and selling cards for fun and profit. Beating the criminals is the battle to win.

Mark at this point along through this mess what makes you think PSA is obviously trying? Have you seen below one amongst many blatantly obvious altered cards...

Orlando doesn’t care what anyone thinks his opinion givers are just giving a opinion us suckers are the ones paying for it.

That’s the way I take it in reading his latest statement...please see Ruth 144 Below...you tell me ...this is one of many

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?p=14874068

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

Mark at this point along through this mess what makes you think PSA is obviously trying? Have you seen below one amongst many blatantly obvious altered cards...

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?p=14874068

I see how the card doctors make money by altering and then selling cards. Unless and until I see evidence of some sort of kickbacks being paid by card doctors/sellers to PSA personnel, I do not see how PSA, or any of the TPG companies, benefit by missing altered cards.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by Mark17

I see how the card doctors make money by altering and then selling cards. Unless and until I see evidence of some sort of kickbacks being paid by card doctors/sellers to PSA personnel, I do not see how PSA, or any of the TPG companies, benefit by missing altered cards.

The point I’m making is they, PSA, doesn’t give a shit Mark !

They want you to accept it and get over or crack and resubmit so they make more money....

All the more accommodating to the bad actors doing crap to cards ....they’re not making it more difficulty they’re leaving the door wide open ....

They’re nothing but a irrelevant opining giving company that’s it...take Away their registry and they’re not taking as arrogantly

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

All the more accommodating to the bad actors doing crap to cards ....they’re not making it more difficulty they’re leaving the door wide open ....

If I leave the door of my house wide open and somebody walks in and robs me, that makes me careless and the other guy a thief. Which is worse?

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by Mark17

If I leave the door of my house wide open and somebody walks in and robs me, that makes me careless and the other guy a thief. Which is worse?

I’m not gonna argue with you it’s like talking to a brick wall.

[Kenny Cole]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

The point I’m making is they, PSA, doesn’t give a shit Mark !

They want you to accept it and get over or crack and resubmit so they make more money....

All the more accommodating to the bad actors doing crap to cards ....they’re not making it more difficulty they’re leaving the door wide open ....

They’re nothing but a irrelevant opining giving company that’s it...take Away their registry and they’re not taking as arrogantly

As has previously been stated multiple times, way too many people are more interested in the grade than in the card. If you are a predator, it is generally safe to rely on human nature. Sad to say, but true. LOOK at the fuc@@ng cards, not the grade on the slab. How about we start there? It will certainly at least slow things down, although I am the first to admit that it will not stop it. Baby steps. At this point, that's what we have.

[frankbmd]

“I like this place and willingly could waste my time in it.”

“I’m Curious George, no you’re Curious George.”

Yogi Bear doth protest too much, methinks.”

[griffon512]

Originally Posted by Mark17

I see how the card doctors make money by altering and then selling cards. Unless and until I see evidence of some sort of kickbacks being paid by card doctors/sellers to PSA personnel, I do not see how PSA, or any of the TPG companies, benefit by missing altered cards.

they benefit by maximizing profit through spending a very limited amount of time evaluating every card. it's a winning strategy over the short term and potentially the long term unless individuals or a system hold them accountable.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by griffon512

they benefit by maximizing profit through spending a very limited amount of time evaluating every card. it's a winning strategy over the short term and potentially the long term unless individuals or a system hold them accountable.

Completely agree...

PSA benefits tremendously by wrongly assigning numerical grades to altered cards. Without the huge increase in dollars realized for a single numerical bump, the Doctors would not be producing and submitting these forgeries in such massive numbers. They are rewarded with such a huge pot of gold at the end of the "TPG Rainbow", that their submissions just keep pouring in... thus benefitting PSA.

Erroneous grading and bumping is what motivates the card doctors to continue and enables them to thrive. It creates a corrupt revenue stream in the form of a "golden triangle"... A perfect equilateral, with Card Doctor, Auction House, and TPG representing the 3 points. Go ahead and throw in eBay, if you want to make the shape of corruption a square.

The only one not included in all of this money-making geometric fun is the poor shlub who gets burned by the slabbed card.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Completely agree...

PSA benefits tremendously by wrongly assigning numerical grades to altered cards. Without the huge increase in dollars realized for a single numerical bump, the Doctors would not be producing and submitting these forgeries in such massive numbers. They are rewarded with such a huge pot of gold at the end of the "TPG Rainbow", that their submissions just keep pouring in... thus benefitting PSA.

Erroneous grading and bumping is what motivates the card doctors to continue and enables them to thrive. It creates a corrupt revenue stream in the form of a "golden triangle"... A perfect equilateral, with Card Doctor, Auction House, and TPG representing the 3 points. Go ahead and throw in eBay, if you want to make the shape of corruption a square.

The only one not included in all of this money-making geometric fun is the poor shlub who gets burned by the slabbed card.

Joe O's lameass statement/response is basically calling people stupid for spending ridiculous amounts of money for their assessments resulting in uber high grade cards.

If you want to "NOT BE CHEATED"...basically dont trust PSA. Joe said it himself!

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by CuriousGeorge

Peter, you’re an attorney and must have much more of an ability than someone like I do to look through the forest and see the bigger picture. While we all want to see Brent rot in hell, if we take a step back whether we are buying $20 cards, $200, $2000, $20,000, $200,000 or whatever, we want to feel confident we’re getting what we paid for. As a novice collector I relied on those slabs to guide me, foolishly thinking TPG’s were there to protect me and the investment (cringe) I was making. Obviously I was wrong.

Now I don’t know what Brent knows or doesn’t know. Does he have something on TPG’s or are they just incompetent? If they’re just incompetent are we just supposed to accept that or are there things that can happen to make them accountable for their actions? I know everyone believes this is going to be like every other time something like this has happened in the industry but I don’t believe it will be. It’s only been a couple of months and far more has happened than anyone could have imagined and yet it’s still met with plenty of ambivalence and scorn. It’s a tough crowd to please because we all want it both ways: the perpetrators to pay the maximum price and the problem (grading cards properly) to get improved. Only time will tell how it all will play out but I think if we can somehow look at it objectively, winning one of the battles has far more value than the other. Again, tough to do, but the bigger picture is far more important.

Agree with everything here Georgie my boy. We shall see when Brent Mastro and PSA square off in court, won't we?