Alteration vs. Conservation Defined

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by benjulmag

I'm not challenging the accuracy of what you are saying, but simply expressing my amazement about the implications of what this means. So PSA slabs vintage cards with high grades, knowing that collectors will rely on those grades to justify in some instances spending mega mega bucks to buy the cards at auction. And then should (when?) the day come that it is revealed that these cards are altered and worth a fraction of what they sold for, and PSA receives claims to make good on their warranty, they just fork over the money? As I said before, based on how the warranty currently reads, assuming the scientific finality of such forensic conclusions, that is one interesting business model.

If it becomes too much of a burden I assume PSA will just revoke it. The train is running so fast I'm not sure anything could slow it down at this point. I don't think most people even care. You and I are from an era where the notion of altering a card was anathema. I'm not sure the newer folks spending megabucks these days have the same view. Heck, a guy spent well into 6 figures on a Jordan card that even PSA said was altered.

[benjulmag]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

If it becomes too much of a burden I assume PSA will just revoke it. The train is running so fast I'm not sure anything could slow it down at this point. I don't think most people even care. You and I are from an era where the notion of altering a card was anathema. I'm not sure the newer folks spending megabucks these days have the same view. Heck, a guy spent well into 6 figures on a Jordan card that even PSA said was altered.

I'm not saying you are incorrect in this assessment, but wouldn't that be something -- a company revoking a warranty because the product was so defective it became too expensive to keep it. That would make some interesting advertising fodder for competitors.

BTW, I'm not persuaded that in time people will not begin (have to) care. Maybe collectors in today's era for the most part do not care. Maybe they have doubts about what has been done to the card but feel protected because of the high number grade on the slab. But it just seems to me that if a person or two undertakes such testing and publicizes the results, that trickle could slowly gain momentum. The perception could grow that a card's grade bears little correlation to its true condition. And it is that shift in public perception that could materially impact a person's assessment of the investment potential of these cards, which could be the impetus for change.

[Peter_Spaeth]

If these are the same card, this is pretty bad.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=1188

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

If these are the same card, this is pretty bad.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=1188

This one is horrendous!!!!! You'd think the trimmed edges from the doctor would appear different in color than the natural rough cut that was left alone on the bottom.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

This one is horrendous!!!!! You'd think the trimmed edges from the doctor would appear different in color than the natural rough cut that was left alone on the bottom.

I’ve seen no evidence that PSA is crooked, i.e. graders being bribed. While it’s obvious that in such a sloppy company run by such a sloppy guy like Orlando, with such opportunities available, I always felt it possible. But without at least strong circumstantial or some direct evidence, I’d never come out and accuse them of fraud as I have with Brent and PWCC which I can easily say is a crooked operation, knee-deep in easily proven fraud. However, after seeing this before and after set of pics, what else can any objective person think? I mean that shit is crazy. Either Stevie Wonder is grading cards at PSA or something nefarious is going on. What else can it be?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by calvindog

I’ve seen no evidence that PSA is crooked, i.e. graders being bribed. While it’s obvious that in such a sloppy company run by such a sloppy guy like Orlando, with such opportunities available, I always felt it possible. But without at least strong circumstantial or some direct evidence, I’d never come out and accuse them of fraud as I have with Brent and PWCC which I can easily say is a crooked operation, knee-deep in easily proven fraud. However, after seeing this before and after set of pics, what else can any objective person think? I mean that shit is crazy. Either Stevie Wonder is grading cards at PSA or something nefarious is going on. What else can it be?

Well.... in fairness I guess ... I think the size of these does vary and maybe the trimmer did something to make the edges look original. Maybe.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by calvindog

I’ve seen no evidence that PSA is crooked, i.e. graders being bribed. While it’s obvious that in such a sloppy company run by such a sloppy guy like Orlando, with such opportunities available, I always felt it possible. But without at least strong circumstantial or some direct evidence, I’d never come out and accuse them of fraud as I have with Brent and PWCC which I can easily say is a crooked operation, knee-deep in easily proven fraud. However, after seeing this before and after set of pics, what else can any objective person think? I mean that shit is crazy. Either Stevie Wonder is grading cards at PSA or something nefarious is going on. What else can it be?

And this is where we are at today. A few years more down the road, I think we'll find the evidence that PSA is GAI.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Fuddjcal

And this is where we are at today. A few years more down the road, I think we'll find the evidence that PSA is GAI.

I don't think so. GAI was a one or two person operation. PSA is a division of a public company. Not so easy to corrupt. But I have to admit I have no great explanation for some of these cards.

[rajah424]

Originally Posted by calvindog

I’ve seen no evidence that PSA is crooked, i.e. graders being bribed. While it’s obvious that in such a sloppy company run by such a sloppy guy like Orlando, with such opportunities available, I always felt it possible. But without at least strong circumstantial or some direct evidence, I’d never come out and accuse them of fraud as I have with Brent and PWCC which I can easily say is a crooked operation, knee-deep in easily proven fraud. However, after seeing this before and after set of pics, what else can any objective person think? I mean that shit is crazy. Either Stevie Wonder is grading cards at PSA or something nefarious is going on. What else can it be?

Based on some of the cards BO has exposed, the trimmers are buying some fairly expensive cards to alter. Seem like they are pretty confident that they get trim the cards and get them in holders. To spend $500 or more for a card, you have to know you can get it holdered or else you have money to burn. Do you think they just keep subbing until it gets past the graders?

[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by rajah424

Based on some of the cards BO has exposed, the trimmers are buying some fairly expensive cards to alter. Seem like they are pretty confident that they get trim the cards and get them in holders. To spend $500 or more for a card, you have to know you can get it holdered or else you have money to burn. Do you think they just keep subbing until it gets past the graders?

How many replies would a thread titled

Confessions of a Spurned Asset Trimmer

receive?

[steve B]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

This one is horrendous!!!!! You'd think the trimmed edges from the doctor would appear different in color than the natural rough cut that was left alone on the bottom.

Not to mention that it's way under size, and may even be tapered.

How that gets a 9 is a complete mystery. (Or maybe not.... )

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

If these are the same card, this is pretty bad.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=1188

If? You can Look 'N See that they're the same card.

More proof of money under the table to graders for turning a blind eye. I could understand a micro-trim slipping past every once in a while, but to trim that much and go undetected?

[vintagetoppsguy]

Never get cheated

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

If these are the same card, this is pretty bad.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=1188

he turned it in to a mini! worth at least double.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Let's assume you're Joe O and let's assume you don't condone this, even tacitly. What do you do?

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Let's assume you're Joe O and let's assume you don't condone this, even tacitly. What do you do?

Exactly what they are doing now. Nothing. Deny Deny Deny.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Let's assume you're Joe O and let's assume you don't condone this, even tacitly. What do you do?

Start hiring competent graders and training them. Which means start paying them more than you pay for the guy who works the fry machine at McDonalds.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Start hiring competent graders and training them. Which means start paying them more than you pay for the guy who works the fry machine at McDonalds.

I still think that's the problem and not people being bribed. Naïve? Maybe.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Let's assume you're Joe O and let's assume you don't condone this, even tacitly. What do you do?

They had a perfect chance and didn't take it. When they had a massive backlog they made a price change instead of changing to a system where they focus on quality but take enough time to get it right.

The minimum charge for a stamp is $35, and only a guess on time with no guaranteed turnaround. And as far as I know the places doing the work aren't exactly begging for work.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by steve B

They had a perfect chance and didn't take it. When they had a massive backlog they made a price change instead of changing to a system where they focus on quality but take enough time to get it right.

The minimum charge for a stamp is $35, and only a guess on time with no guaranteed turnaround. And as far as I know the places doing the work aren't exactly begging for work.

Yes but look at all the people who bitched and moaned about turnaround time, including here. They were responding to their customers. I don't fault them. Most people aren't patient. They can't even wait for auction houses to send their cards in due course. Instant gratification society.

[chalupacollects]

BTW, I'm not persuaded that in time people will not begin (have to) care. Maybe collectors in today's era for the most part do not care. Maybe they have doubts about what has been done to the card but feel protected because of the high number grade on the slab. But it just seems to me that if a person or two undertakes such testing and publicizes the results, that trickle could slowly gain momentum. The perception could grow that a card's grade bears little correlation to its true condition. And it is that shift in public perception that could materially impact a person's assessment of the investment potential of these cards, which could be the impetus for change.

So maybe people are buying the holder and not the card? What then would happen if the TPG's implode based on current events/scandals. How would those folks feel then? What would they do?

[benjulmag]

Originally Posted by chalupacollects

BTW, I'm not persuaded that in time people will not begin (have to) care. Maybe collectors in today's era for the most part do not care. Maybe they have doubts about what has been done to the card but feel protected because of the high number grade on the slab. But it just seems to me that if a person or two undertakes such testing and publicizes the results, that trickle could slowly gain momentum. The perception could grow that a card's grade bears little correlation to its true condition. And it is that shift in public perception that could materially impact a person's assessment of the investment potential of these cards, which could be the impetus for change.

So maybe people are buying the holder and not the card? What then would happen if the TPG's implode based on current events/scandals. How would those folks feel then? What would they do?

If many of these sophisticated alterations can in fact be detected, if only it was important enough for TPGs to do so, the change I am hoping would come is that they would be forced to do so. If current methods become so untrustworthy, market forces might require that.