Alteration vs. Conservation Defined

[Peter_Spaeth]

Let's assume you're Joe O and let's assume you don't condone this, even tacitly. What do you do?

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Let's assume you're Joe O and let's assume you don't condone this, even tacitly. What do you do?

Exactly what they are doing now. Nothing. Deny Deny Deny.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Let's assume you're Joe O and let's assume you don't condone this, even tacitly. What do you do?

Start hiring competent graders and training them. Which means start paying them more than you pay for the guy who works the fry machine at McDonalds.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Start hiring competent graders and training them. Which means start paying them more than you pay for the guy who works the fry machine at McDonalds.

I still think that's the problem and not people being bribed. Naïve? Maybe.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I still think that's the problem and not people being bribed. Naïve? Maybe.

The Mr. Jiggs gorilla who rode across my grammar school’s stage on a tricycle in the 70s could see how trimmed that card is.

[Kenny Cole]

Given all this we get cards graded because ..... ? It can't be trust, which is what PSA purported to sell. It can't be experience -- that ship has sailed. Protection? Maybe, although I don't know why an already altered card would need much protecting - how does or can its condition get worse than already altered? That leaves ... money and ego, which was EXACTLY what was actually being sold -- my card is better than yours. I hated grading when it started, exactly for the reasons stated here, kind of bought in to it later, and am now having to rethink it again. As Jeff said, having Stevie Wonder as the grader isn't designed to inspire too much confidence.

Man, this thread is depressing (but necessary) at so many levels. I guess I'll go look at some of my graded cards and try to figure out which ones don't deserve the grade they got. Reality sucks. At this point, I imagine I'm about as competent to do that as PSA's graders. That's really a sad commentary on the existing situation.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Kenny Cole

Given all this we get cards graded because ..... ? It can't be trust, which is what PSA purported to sell. It can't be experience -- that ship has sailed. Protection? Maybe, although I don't know why an already altered card would need much protecting - how does or can its condition get worse than already altered? That leaves ... money and ego, which was EXACTLY what was actually being sold -- my card is better than yours. I hated grading when it started, exactly for the reasons stated here, kind of bought in to it later, and am now having to rethink it again. As Jeff said, having Stevie Wonder as the grader isn't designed to inspire too much confidence.

Man, this thread is depressing (but necessary) at so many levels. I guess I'll go look at some of my graded cards and try to figure out which ones don't deserve the grade they got. Reality sucks. At this point, I imagine I'm about as competent to do that as PSA's graders. That's really a sad commentary on the existing situation.

Registry which causes resale value. PSA offers nothing else.

[Kenny Cole]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Registry which causes resale value. PSA offers nothing else.

I get it. That's my conclusion too. How disappointing.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Kenny Cole

I get it. That's my conclusion too. How disappointing.

It's a new world my friend, just ask Brent and his fan club and apologists. Cards are now "assets." Collectors are now "investors." Your closet, or maybe safe or safe deposit box, is now a friggin' "vault." Well, at least you aren't charged sales tax.

Oh, and alteration is now "conservation." LOL.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Registry which causes resale value. PSA offers nothing else.

It's not just the registry IMO. It's a brand-wide effect now, just look as one small example at Jeter rookies. I guarantee you most guys aren't buying those to register them, but the gap with the other companies has widened substantially.

[conor912]

Originally Posted by Kenny Cole

Given all this we get cards graded because ..... ? It can't be trust, which is what PSA purported to sell. It can't be experience -- that ship has sailed. Protection? Maybe, although I don't know why an already altered card would need much protecting - how does or can its condition get worse than already altered? That leaves ... money and ego, which was EXACTLY what was actually being sold -- my card is better than yours. I hated grading when it started, exactly for the reasons stated here, kind of bought in to it later, and am now having to rethink it again. As Jeff said, having Stevie Wonder as the grader isn't designed to inspire too much confidence.

Man, this thread is depressing (but necessary) at so many levels. I guess I'll go look at some of my graded cards and try to figure out which ones don't deserve the grade they got. Reality sucks. At this point, I imagine I'm about as competent to do that as PSA's graders. That's really a sad commentary on the existing situation.

I also struggled with it for a long time. I always saw collecting as an extension of my childhood where we certainly didn't have slabs. I could also never come to peace with the aesthetics. My eye would immediatly go to the flip, then based on the grade, my mind would then start looking for the flaws responsible for the given downgrade(s). It just got to the point where I wasn't enjoying the actual cards anymore. I agree with you about ego and money. I've never had much of an ego but the money part was a concern for sure.

Then, several years ago, I was finally able to cut the cord with my concern of value. It took a while, but I got there, and it was extremely liberating. I cracked every single card I owned, including, but certainly not limited to, a '33G set and theT3 set I'm about half way done with. I started with the lowest dollar cards and kept working my way up. I realized that if I got up to a certain monetary value of card to where I just couldn't bring myself to crack it, then I couldn't comfortably afford that card and shouldn't own it.

It's really easy to get caught up and start collecting beyond your means. Now my entire collection is raw and I've never been happier with it. Would it be hard to sell raw? Probably. Would I get a lot less? Sure. But those are monetary concerns, which I can't care about anymore. The cards are the same, in slabs or out. I've since met a lot of collectors who think the same (yes, they're out there!). Do I have some altered cards (oh, i mean conserved assets) in my collection? Probably. But if I can't tell, and I can let go of the monetary piece (I.e. collect within my means for pure joy), do I even care?

If TPGs do nothing else, it's monger fear. Don't collect scared.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Let's assume you're Joe O and let's assume you don't condone this, even tacitly. What do you do?

They had a perfect chance and didn't take it. When they had a massive backlog they made a price change instead of changing to a system where they focus on quality but take enough time to get it right.

The minimum charge for a stamp is $35, and only a guess on time with no guaranteed turnaround. And as far as I know the places doing the work aren't exactly begging for work.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by steve B

They had a perfect chance and didn't take it. When they had a massive backlog they made a price change instead of changing to a system where they focus on quality but take enough time to get it right.

The minimum charge for a stamp is $35, and only a guess on time with no guaranteed turnaround. And as far as I know the places doing the work aren't exactly begging for work.

Yes but look at all the people who bitched and moaned about turnaround time, including here. They were responding to their customers. I don't fault them. Most people aren't patient. They can't even wait for auction houses to send their cards in due course. Instant gratification society.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Yes but look at all the people who bitched and moaned about turnaround time, including here. They were responding to their customers. I don't fault them. Most people aren't patient. They can't even wait for auction houses to send their cards in due course. Instant gratification society.

And with grading it's PSA that set that expectation. If I remember it right, they were habitually late anyway, and their enthusiasts didn't usually care.

I sort of get the rush, I can't imagine an insurance company is happy if the expensive stuff stays in the building any longer than necessary. And Dealers of course want fast turnaround so their money isn't tied up any longer than it must be.

Without changing the overall scheme, I don't see a way for things to change

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by steve B

And with grading it's PSA that set that expectation. If I remember it right, they were habitually late anyway, and their enthusiasts didn't usually care.

I sort of get the rush, I can't imagine an insurance company is happy if the expensive stuff stays in the building any longer than necessary. And Dealers of course want fast turnaround so their money isn't tied up any longer than it must be.

Without changing the overall scheme, I don't see a way for things to change

Collectors are impatient too judging by the posts I have seen here. When those of us a certain age were growing up there was of course no email, no texting, no overnight deliveries, long-distance phone calls cost too damn much to make regularly so you wrote letters to your girlfriend if you were away, etc. etc. etc. I think people today have a completely different conception of time.

There's that wonderful saying, I think it may be Spanish, slow down, we're in a hurry.