Are We Slaves To The Registry?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

I eschew gum...among other things.

And if you escheat, you will be estopped.

[Dpeck100]

I have a client that is really into 1950's classic cars. He has 18 that are in perfectly restored condition. He can tell you about every component and why each is valuable but the first thing he tells you about is how many were made and how many still exist.

The registry is nothing new to many forms of collectibles and it was only a matter of time until it came to cards. Something that attempts to track scarcity in quantity and quality is what drives collectibles markets so the registry shouldn't be viewed as something that is a negative.

Just this week Joe Orlando on his Twitter feed disclosed that PSA graded a 1932 U.S. Caramel William McKinley. In 28 years they have only graded two copies. Without the registry many would say this card is very rare and only a few are known. With the registry you can confirm that in 28 years PSA has only assessed two copies so it proves just how rare it is. Information is the key to confidence in collectibles so the more you can display the better.

The fact that a population report exists is extremely positive for card prices and I think it is a wonderful thing for the hobby. This scenario isn't slave like under any circumstances. Why anyone tries to fight the trend makes no sense to me. It isn't getting smaller but only exponentially bigger.

In terms of some of these what if's. It is pointless to even discuss because they do exist. We don't live in the great depression. There is money coming from every corner of the world so keeping a lid on prices just to appease a few isn't even possible. Why wouldn't people who collect things of value monitor and track prices? Of course they do that is a major driving force on how people determine what they think something is worth.

Puffery? Every consumer product has some level of puffery. Why do women where lingerie? To make you want it more. It takes seconds to take off but it certainly does the trick and entices you. People can pretend all they want that the fantasy descriptions don't help but they do. Humans like to read something and get excited and many auctions houses do a great job of putting lingerie on cards.

All of the information that is available to collectors has helped the hobby and I for one have no interest in going back in time.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Which flavor?

[frankbmd]

When rarity is related to condition?

And when condition for registry purposes is related to grading?

And when the difference between a “9” and a “10” is so trivial that if the same card is submitted 10 times and receives a “10” twice and a “9” eight times?

And when on the days that the card is in a “10” holder it is worth 10 times the value of the days that it is in a “9” holder?

And when the most valuable graded card with a 00000001 cert number has been trimmed?

I do believe there is problem with delusion of those who

1 - believe in the integrity of the Registry game

2 - willingly support the exponential price escalation to add a point to their registry set for self-aggrandizement

3 - demean competing third party graders as grossly inferior because of valuation differential between identical cards

4 - seem to think that hobby would be better served if there was but one monopolistic third party grader selling a myth.

I respectfully disagree and will tell you how I really feel if requested.

I have no problem with classic cars though.

[Bram99]

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

Something that attempts to track scarcity in quantity and quality is what drives collectibles markets so the registry shouldn't be viewed as something that is a negative...
All of the information that is available to collectors has helped the hobby and I for one have no interest in going back in time.

I don't know why many of the Net54 old-guard and frequent posters to this board want to look down upon the increasing trend of popularity of the PSA registry. Maybe they don't like the idea that the hobby has changed.

I have put forth the theory on earlier posts that I believe the PSA registry and its' network effect is the most important reason for the persistent gap in prices between the graded cards of PSA and other TPG's.

Call it being a slave to the registry if you want. Call it Kool-Aid. But despite what the septuagenarians and sexagenarians of this board may believe, the hobby is changing and the registry is a big part of it. MLB is not going back to 154 games. Kids are not learning cursive anymore. Kids write with only one space after a period now. And the registry is not going away. Embrace the change rather than mock it.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by Bram99

I don't know why many of the Net54 old-guard and frequent posters to this board want to look down upon the increasing trend of popularity of the PSA registry.

Let me count the ways:

1. It devalues knowledge. Putting together a top registry set doesn't require that the collector learn how to assess a card, just how to read a flip.

2. It increases competition between collectors, needlessly IMO. Registry geeks are constantly measuring themselves against other collectors rather than enjoying their compadres' collections.

3. It drives up prices by giving rich collectors reasons to battle over top specimens, which has the collateral effect of pricing many of us out of certain issues.

4. It dramatically increases the cost of collecting: slabbing stuff is expensive.

5. It makes storage of a substantial collection more difficult.

6. it grants a third party with a profit motive tremendous power over the hobby and its participants.

[robw1959]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Let me count the ways:

1. It devalues knowledge. Putting together a top registry set doesn't require that the collector learn how to assess a card, just how to read a flip.

2. It increases competition between collectors, needlessly IMO. Registry geeks are constantly measuring themselves against other collectors rather than enjoying their compadres' collections.

3. It drives up prices by giving rich collectors reasons to battle over top specimens, which has the collateral effect of pricing many of us out of certain issues.

4. It dramatically increases the cost of collecting: slabbing stuff is expensive.

5. It makes storage of a substantial collection more difficult.

6. it grants a third party with a profit motive tremendous power over the hobby and its participants.

+1

[Bagwell-1994]

Originally Posted by robw1959

+1

I agree with all of these points. As a younger collector (ripe age of 37) who just wanted to spend a hard-earned life savings on baseball cards, started seriously buying last summer 2018, I must say, I was in for a big surprise/disappointment when I started buying up cards on Ebay.

I started with a 1941 Play Ball Ted Williams and Joe DiMaggio, simply due to the historical significance of that year (last 0.400 batting average, 56-game hitting streak, last year before those players sacrificed time to WWII). I used Beckett as a guide to gauge the value of the cards I was buying, simply because Beckett magazine is what I remembered as a kid as being the definitive price guide for cards.

I continued buying and buying and until, thanks to certain sellers (here's looking at you, Ed Hazuka!) began answering my questions and educating me as to vintagecardprices.com and PSA SMR price guides, the difference between PSA/SGC/BVG, etc.

Suddenly, it began to become very clear that there was an essential cold, calculated, scrutinizing monopoly on the value of cards. I thought "the older and more worn, the better!" but boy was I wrong!

Suddenly, my child-like joy of simply buying "old cards I'd never thought I would own" philosophy eventually morphed into trying to acquire the best centered and best PSA grades I could possibly afford.

Now, months later, and having invested in a $70K + value collection of cards, I can honestly look back and say: boy do I miss that original feeling, that original passion, of simply adoring those worn beat up cards for what they were.. before all the scrutiny and PSA-grading mentality took over the way I looked at baseball cards.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

[Exhibitman]

Shain, you can go back to what you like. Check out OBC (Old Baseball Cards). There are some members on this board. They collect lower grade cards for the love of it.

http://mac.oldbaseball.com/

[Mrc32]

Originally Posted by Bagwell-1994

I agree with all of these points. As a younger collector (ripe age of 37) who just wanted to spend a hard-earned life savings on baseball cards, started seriously buying last summer 2018, I must say, I was in for a big surprise/disappointment when I started buying up cards on Ebay.

I started with a 1941 Play Ball Ted Williams and Joe DiMaggio, simply due to the historical significance of that year (last 0.400 batting average, 56-game hitting streak, last year before those players sacrificed time to WWII). I used Beckett as a guide to gauge the value of the cards I was buying, simply because Beckett magazine is what I remembered as a kid as being the definitive price guide for cards.

I continued buying and buying and until, thanks to certain sellers (here's looking at you, Ed Hazuka!) began answering my questions and educating me as to vintagecardprices.com and PSA SMR price guides, the difference between PSA/SGC/BVG, etc.

Suddenly, it began to become very clear that there was an essential cold, calculated, scrutinizing monopoly on the value of cards. I thought "the older and more worn, the better!" but boy was I wrong!

Suddenly, my child-like joy of simply buying "old cards I'd never thought I would own" philosophy eventually morphed into trying to acquire the best centered and best PSA grades I could possibly afford.

Now, months later, and having invested in a $70K + value collection of cards, I can honestly look back and say: boy do I miss that original feeling, that original passion, of simply adoring those worn beat up cards for what they were.. before all the scrutiny and PSA-grading mentality took over the way I looked at baseball cards.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

Great post!

I think the only way to enjoy cards like when you were young is to not "invest" money in cards, simply buy cards you enjoy and change your mentality on making money when you sell. Just buy what you like and don't worry about ROI.

[Dpeck100]

Originally Posted by Bram99

I don't know why many of the Net54 old-guard and frequent posters to this board want to look down upon the increasing trend of popularity of the PSA registry. Maybe they don't like the idea that the hobby has changed.

I have put forth the theory on earlier posts that I believe the PSA registry and its' network effect is the most important reason for the persistent gap in prices between the graded cards of PSA and other TPG's.

Call it being a slave to the registry if you want. Call it Kool-Aid. But despite what the septuagenarians and sexagenarians of this board may believe, the hobby is changing and the registry is a big part of it. MLB is not going back to 154 games. Kids are not learning cursive anymore. Kids write with only one space after a period now. And the registry is not going away. Embrace the change rather than mock it.

I started reading this forum in 2010 and didn't really start posting much at all for another five years or so. Back in the early days when card prices were just starting to take off the spread between SGC and PSA in terms of prices was fairly modest. This has always been an anti PSA and in love with SGC board and so it was easy to have the position of I hate PSA and they are what is wrong with the hobby even though they were dominating from a new card submission standpoint. Fast forward to today when there isn't a week that goes by where a thread is started highlighting the extreme spread between the two in prices and now it is no longer fun and games but hurting people in the pocket. I get it that people are upset because they know that the market has moved in a way that doesn't financially support their position or to its fullest extent and that hurts.

I can't help but laugh when people say that putting together registry sets doesn't take anything but money. That is completely flawed logic. Anyone who is putting together registry sets generally submits cards on their own, picks and chooses cards from other TPG and tries to cross them through either an in holder cross or a crack out. When I am staring at a raw card and determining if it is worthy of submission there is no flip on it and I need to make a good decision one whether to submit it because it isn't free.

Manufactured scarcity is what the hobby needed because sales of new cards had fallen so much that creating a lottery ticket scenario was the only way to get people to buy packs. If there was demand for 2 million of each card a year they wouldn't be doing this but those days are never coming back. The onset of third party grading population reports is met to do the same thing. It has been extremely effective in doing just that and is only going to get bigger.

There is one thing in life you can't do and that is stop change. It happens whether you like it or not and the card business was for ever changed when third party grading entered and that trend is only getting stronger and so one can either change with the times or fight it that is their choice.

[frankbmd]

As an appendage to my prior post

If an item is truly rare, the sky is the limit on pricing. For example, if there are only two of an item extant, and ten people feel they “need” to have it in an auction, then have at it.

However if there are only two of an item based on a PSA Pop Report such as a “10” of any card, and if there are 87 “9” s of the same card or item and 342 “8” s of the same card, all of which are barely discernible as different without an electron microscopic, then there is something rotten in Denmark.

If you cannot differentiate between these two examples, you have missed the point of this thread. I am not on an campaign to eliminate the Registry or PSA, nor am I eager to return to the early years of the twentieth century and get my Cobbs by smoking Piedmonts.

Members of this board are entitled to have different opinions. Mine is not unique. Has the hobby become a lottery ticket or a casino based on manufactured rarity? If so, I consider that unfortunate change. I prefer to collect baseball history rather than sit at a blackjack table, and I have done both successfully.

[Peter_Spaeth]

TPG has many positives, but what I like least about it is that it has, IMO, resulted in the slabbing of a vast number of altered cards, enriched many a criminal card doctor, and created a generation of collectors who seem to have no knowledge of or concern about alteration.

[barrysloate]

David- I agree with you completely that the hobby is changing. Everything in life changes, and we don't always accept those changes easily.

But are you suggesting that part of what makes the new hobby great (my word "great") is buying raw cards to get them slabbed, and to look for undergraded cards to get them crossed-over? That doesn't give me a warm and fuzzy. If anything, it corroborates Frank's original point that we are becoming too beholden to third party grading.

Another way the hobby is changing is that set breaks have become extremely popular at baseball card shows. From what I hear, they have become a rage. But it seems to me that they could just as easily take place in a Las Vegas casino as they would at a baseball card show. It's really more a game of chance, like roulette or blackjack, than it is a form of card collecting.

So while these changes may be embraced by some, they make me long for the good old days. Hope the old fashioned way never goes out of style. Again, the history of what I collect is much more important to me than what label a quasi-expert slaps onto a plastic slab. That said, collect whatever you like, however you like doing it.

[drcy]

I'm definitely an old timer about collecting, in sentiments if not age, and am apt to criticize, and sometimes mock, the registry and grading. Believe it or not, I've never sent in a card for grading and have owned a total of perhaps 10 graded cards. However, there's no one-size-fits all to collecting, and if people enjoy set breaks and the registry that's no harm to me.

In the 1990s, I collected and sold modern cards (along with old), so I never criticize modern collectors or modern cards (sans those dumb autograph cuts ones). I think many modern inserts are rather neat.

To each his own.

[Dpeck100]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

David- I agree with you completely that the hobby is changing. Everything in life changes, and we don't always accept those changes easily.

But are you suggesting that part of what makes the new hobby great (my word "great") is buying raw cards to get them slabbed, and to look for undergraded cards to get them crossed-over? That doesn't give me a warm and fuzzy. If anything, it corroborates Frank's original point that we are becoming too beholden to third party grading.

Another way the hobby is changing is that set breaks have become extremely popular at baseball card shows. From what I hear, they have become a rage. But it seems to me that they could just as easily take place in a Las Vegas casino as they would at a baseball card show. It's really more a game of chance, like roulette or blackjack, than it is a form of card collecting.

So while these changes may be embraced by some, they make me long for the good old days. Hope the old fashioned way never goes out of style. Again, the history of what I collect is much more important to me than what label a quasi-expert slaps onto a plastic slab. That said, collect whatever you like, however you like doing it.

Barry my comment was simply saying that it takes more than money to create a top registry set. You have to hunt and take chances and money alone doesn't do that for you. There is real skill involved in finding raw cards or cards in other third party graded holders that you think you can achieve grades that work for you. I have hunted every single day since August of 2009 to build my sets. Left work dinners to go bid on cards forced wholesalers to bring their I-pads to lunches prior to me having a smart phone so I didn't miss out on chances to win. Stayed up wayyy past my bed time to make sure I won. Whatever it took. You have to want it and have passion and this notion that people who collect high grade cards only care about the slab is ludicrous.

I don't poke fun at people who only buy 5's and 6's. For the most part people buy what they can afford and so if that is what is in someone's budget so be it. If they are getting enjoyment out of buying and owning trading cards fantastic.

There was no graded wrestling card market before I came along. There wasn't countless people that said wow that is a great investment I need to get in. I decided to collect a genre of cards that I cared about and that would give me enjoyment. That is the best reason to collect in my view but there are plenty of others that are just fine too.

Many on here play in the big boy space where cards go into the millions. No one can convince me you should be buying a card that is more than 5k and not have investment as part of the reason you are buying it. I think a lot of people try and convince themselves that they are only doing it for purity. There is no such thing. There is no right way to collect but what is constant around here is people taking shots at those that like to try and put high grade sets together as if they are what is wrong with the hobby. Who in there right mind would rather stare at a card that is beat to shit vs. near perfect? No one. High grade cards are drastically more ascetically pleasing and if money was no object everyone would collect them. You have to stay in your lane and collect what you can but firing shots at those that want the best is ridiculous.

I am not an average guy. Have no desire to be average and so it wouldn't make sense for me to try and collect average cards. It took me seven years to finally get the last card for my 82 A Wrestling All Stars set in a PSA 9 or higher. I cried when I put it on the wall in its new home because it stood for dedication and passion and kicking ass.

Third party grading is here to stay and so one can choose to live with it and ride the wave or keep their cards raw but it isn't going anywhere and the trend is only getting stronger.

[Michael B]

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

Just this week Joe Orlando on his Twitter feed disclosed that PSA graded a 1932 U.S. Caramel William McKinley. In 28 years they have only graded two copies. Without the registry many would say this card is very rare and only a few are known. With the registry you can confirm that in 28 years PSA has only assessed two copies so it proves just how rare it is. Information is the key to confidence in collectibles so the more you can display the better.

Skewed logic. The only fact you can confirm is that PSA has graded only two copies of that particular card. It does not speak to rarity. Your statement is based on the assumption that anyone and everyone who owns that card would want it in a plastic tomb with an artificial number attached to it. There could be any number of non-sports collectors who don't give a rats rump about getting their cards graded and tracked. They could be happy just owning the cards and keeping them as they are.

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by Michael B

Skewed logic. The only fact you can confirm is that PSA has graded only two copies of that particular card.

Actually, it only proves that the people who get paid for their opinions have seen at least one copy of that card, but possibly two different times.

[barrysloate]

The registry is here to stay, but like many other collectors I ignore it because it has nothing to do with the way I collect. I don't compete with others and don't really care who has the best cards. I'm interested in baseball history, not slabs.

And as Adam said, it drives up prices to ridiculous levels. It becomes a "1%" hobby, and I can't play on that level. To each his own.

[jimjim]

“Are current products dependent on manufactured scarcity to survive? What if there were no current products? Would the vintage market be adversely affected?”

I am not a big card collector but I love this discussion. I started with cards in the late 1980’s like many 40 something’s but focused on autographs when I reentered the hobby 16 years ago. When I caught the bug to buy a few of my favorite cards from the 80’s I found out about the ‘registry’. To be honest, it has kept me away from collecting cards more than a dabble here and there because I don’t like the insanity surrounding this concept. But most people love it and I understand both sides.

Regarding the first question above, I’m sure this has been discussed over and over but PSA also creates manufactured scarcity when they slap a 10 on a flip. I have always wondered if there is some unwritten rule of how many 10s a grader can give out a day. There is so much wiggle room for a grader that they really control the market. I am waiting until grading is fully computerized and PSA launches a separate registry for those cards. Then I’ll be on board.

[Dpeck100]

Originally Posted by Michael B

Skewed logic. The only fact you can confirm is that PSA has graded only two copies of that particular card. It does not speak to rarity. Your statement is based on the assumption that anyone and everyone who owns that card would want it in a plastic tomb with an artificial number attached to it. There could be any number of non-sports collectors who don't give a rats rump about getting their cards graded and tracked. They could be happy just owning the cards and keeping them as they are.

You obviously have no clue what you are talking about. If there was a plethora of them out there after 28 years of card grading more would have worked their way to third party graders. If this recent grading specimen comes for sale the "puffery" used will be glorious.


From PSA card facts.


The classic 1932 U.S. Caramel Presidents set (R114) contains one of the most highly-sought non-sports cards in the hobby, the extremely scare William McKinley card. The McKinley card was actually not confirmed to exist until the early 1990s and is so scarce that the set is considered to be complete at 30 cards rather than the 31 with McKinley included. Distributed in limited supply to encourage continued sales of their product to children attempting to complete their set. A redemption was available by sending in a complete set of cards to be exchanged for a one-pound box of assorted chocolates. In fact, the cards would also be returned with the candy, though defaced by cancellation stamps or punch holes.

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

You obviously have no clue what you are talking about.

And YOU obviously drank the kool-aid from the people who get paid for their opinions.

Which is another way for me to say that it is YOU who have no clue what you are talking about.

There is NO WAY for you draw a correlation between the number of cards in the pop report and the number of cards that exist in total.

I happen to have four of these cards in my safe deposit box, and trust me when I tell you they will never be listed on the pop report during my lifetime.

During my last 40 years of driving around the country scouring baseball card and collector stores I have accumulated many other incredibly scarce cards the existence of which would collapse their markets if I released them all at the same time.

When my kids start the sales, you might be among those who run screaming from the collapse. Apologies in advance.

Doug "there's a big grin on my face right now" Goodman

[Dpeck100]

Originally Posted by doug.goodman

And YOU obviously drank the kool-aid from the people who get paid for their opinions.

Which is another way for me to say that it is YOU who have no clue what you are talking about.

There is NO WAY for you draw a correlation between the number of cards in the pop report and the number of cards that exist in total.

I happen to have four of these cards in my safe deposit box, and trust me when I tell you they will never be listed on the pop report during my lifetime.

During my last 40 years of driving around the country scouring baseball card and collector stores I have accumulated many other incredibly scarce cards the existence of which would collapse their markets if I released them all at the same time.

When my kids start the sales, you might be among those who run screaming from the collapse. Apologies in advance.

Doug "there's a big grin on my face right now" Goodman

To suggest you can't draw conclusions from a pop report is ludicrous.

A pop report doesn't tell you how many exist but if a third party grader has only reviewed a few after 28 years and has graded nearly 33 million collectibles it is extremely rare.

Using this logic I am to assume there are hundreds of Honus Wagner's floating around that aren't accounted for. Please.

Congratulations on owning four. Hopefully your children make a fortune one day selling them.

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

To suggest you can't draw conclusions from a pop report is ludicrous.

Apologies, you are correct, you can draw many conclusions from the pop report.

But, any of those conclusions that involve cards outside of the pop report won't be based on any sort of reality.

[Promethius88]

Originally Posted by doug.goodman

And YOU obviously drank the kool-aid from the people who get paid for their opinions.

Which is another way for me to say that it is YOU who have no clue what you are talking about.

There is NO WAY for you draw a correlation between the number of cards in the pop report and the number of cards that exist in total.

I happen to have four of these cards in my safe deposit box, and trust me when I tell you they will never be listed on the pop report during my lifetime.

During my last 40 years of driving around the country scouring baseball card and collector stores I have accumulated many other incredibly scarce cards the existence of which would collapse their markets if I released them all at the same time.

When my kids start the sales, you might be among those who run screaming from the collapse. Apologies in advance.

Doug "there's a big grin on my face right now" Goodman

Why would you assume that releasing some of these scarce cards you would "collapse their market"? Unless you are sitting on dozens of each card the current market would most likely absorb them quite easily. Typically new finds and releases of previously unknown material stirs up excitement and actually increases the price of cards that are already out there.
And to clarify, after reading all these posts, I don't think anyone was saying that you can know exactly how many of any card exists just by looking at a pop report. But to say that it can't be used as a guideline to know the general scarcity or the condition sensitivity of a certain card is absurd.

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by Promethius88

Why would you assume that releasing some of these scarce cards you would "collapse their market"? Unless you are sitting on dozens of each card the current market would most likely absorb them quite easily. Typically new finds and releases of previously unknown material stirs up excitement and actually increases the price of cards that are already out there.
And to clarify, after reading all these posts, I don't think anyone was saying that you can know exactly how many of any card exists just by looking at a pop report. But to say that it can't be used as a guideline to know the general scarcity or the condition sensitivity of a certain card is absurd.

You are probably right about not being able to collapse markets, the "Trump" in me tends to exaggerate.

I agree that the proportional scarcity is something that can probably, but not certainly, be assumed from the pop reports.

My point is that many people read the pop reports as if they were listing all cards that exist, and auction houses tend to word their descriptions in a direction that leans that way, when in fact they do not.

[Michael B]

Originally Posted by doug.goodman

And YOU obviously drank the kool-aid from the people who get paid for their opinions.

Which is another way for me to say that it is YOU who have no clue what you are talking about.

There is NO WAY for you draw a correlation between the number of cards in the pop report and the number of cards that exist in total.

I happen to have four of these cards in my safe deposit box, and trust me when I tell you they will never be listed on the pop report during my lifetime.

During my last 40 years of driving around the country scouring baseball card and collector stores I have accumulated many other incredibly scarce cards the existence of which would collapse their markets if I released them all at the same time.

When my kids start the sales, you might be among those who run screaming from the collapse. Apologies in advance.

Doug "there's a big grin on my face right now" Goodman

Doug,

Thank you for proving my point.

[brian1961]

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

I have a client that is really into 1950's classic cars. He has 18 that are in perfectly restored condition. He can tell you about every component and why each is valuable but the first thing he tells you about is how many were made and how many still exist.

The registry is nothing new to many forms of collectibles and it was only a matter of time until it came to cards. Something that attempts to track scarcity in quantity and quality is what drives collectibles markets so the registry shouldn't be viewed as something that is a negative.

Just this week Joe Orlando on his Twitter feed disclosed that PSA graded a 1932 U.S. Caramel William McKinley. In 28 years they have only graded two copies. Without the registry many would say this card is very rare and only a few are known. With the registry you can confirm that in 28 years PSA has only assessed two copies so it proves just how rare it is. Information is the key to confidence in collectibles so the more you can display the better.

The fact that a population report exists is extremely positive for card prices and I think it is a wonderful thing for the hobby. This scenario isn't slave like under any circumstances. Why anyone tries to fight the trend makes no sense to me. It isn't getting smaller but only exponentially bigger.

In terms of some of these what if's. It is pointless to even discuss because they do exist. We don't live in the great depression. There is money coming from every corner of the world so keeping a lid on prices just to appease a few isn't even possible. Why wouldn't people who collect things of value monitor and track prices? Of course they do that is a major driving force on how people determine what they think something is worth.

Puffery? Every consumer product has some level of puffery. Why do women where lingerie? To make you want it more. It takes seconds to take off but it certainly does the trick and entices you. People can pretend all they want that the fantasy descriptions don't help but they do. Humans like to read something and get excited and many auctions houses do a great job of putting lingerie on cards.

All of the information that is available to collectors has helped the hobby and I for one have no interest in going back in time.

+100, David. I got so sick of the disparaging remarks on Net 54 regarding auction house lot descriptions. They MUST represent the consignor with all their might. While it is true that many items are all too well-known, their fame must needs be refreshed for potential bidders to ponder whether they want to bid to own said item. Then there are items that were scarce when issued, and somewhat rare to downright rare today. All too many collectors have little to no knowledge of them, not to mention their significance. How are they going to learn, or become intrigued and then intensely interested, lest the auction house let them in on what they're looking at?

--- Brian Powell

[frankbmd]

Change is indeed inevitable. In the tobacco era kids picked up discarded Cobb inserts off the floor of the tobacco shops if they were not yet smokers.

In the 50s kids like me could always get a nickel or two from their mothers for those 5 cent wax packs of Topps cards sold everywhere. A few collected sets but many made their bicycles roar.

In the 80s and 90s we were lured back into the hobby by those billions of high end Upper Deck cards that were destined to be the gold mine of the future, just as the 50s Topps Cards were beginning to appreciate in 80s,

But now how many “kids” are buying those $100, $500 and &1000 packs of manufactured rarity without getting a secured loan, understanding they only come with an implied guarantee of possibly recouping your investment, if you’re lucky, actually only if you're pretty damned lucky.

When old baseball cards began to show significant appreciation, I tried to determine what new, future collectible should I begin to hoard. The result of my brainstorm I do not believe has come to fruition yet, but I considered rarity in making my choice.

Drumroll please

Unopened Happy Meal Toy Packets from McDonalds

If they had taken off in value, just imagine the national depression that would have ensued in the young adult population who had consistently ripped open the toys before touching their burger.

[Exhibitman]

I guess the unease underlying all of this is the degree to which the registry proponents are willing to hand over control of their hobby to a monopolistic for-profit business, unregulated and beholden to no one except its shareholders, with all that implies. All the talk of markets and investments and so on, yet no consideration of the fact that the registry exists on the whim of whoever runs it, as do the awards, as does the difference between grades of cards, especially at the top levels with modern cards. PSA decides not to grade an issue or not count an issue and the registry doesn't reflect it. For example, PSA won't grade any exhibit cards except baseball. Which means that the player sets for other sports are woefully incomplete and inaccurate, often missing a whole run of a subject's cards that predate the PSA-approved rookie card. Or it won't differentiate between T205 backs, so a Drum or a Hindu counts the same as a Piedmont or Sweet Caporal because PSA acknowledges no difference.

[Dpeck100]

Third party grading came about because it was a natural evolution of an industry that assigns grades to a tangible asset and that grade can have a significant impact on the value assigned to it. This is nothing new.

Cars, coins, stamps, diamonds all had third party grading services prior to cards.

I purchased my wife's engagement ring when I was 27 and didn't do an ounce of research. We found a yellow diamond and took the jewelers word for it on the ratings and just assumed it was the case and had our grading report tucked away for many years. Thirteen years later we celebrated our ten year wedding anniversary late last year and she wanted a major upgrade and the first thing I said to her was we need to do some research before we even consider purchasing a new one. It turns out the rating company of our ring was a much lower tier company and over grades the diamonds. I was afraid of this as soon as we started looking into it. The diamond is probably worth 30% of what I paid for it and such is life. That said once we had more information we realized the price range it was going to take to get what she wanted and shortly there after moved forward with purchasing a much larger stone and setting that is graded by the PSA of diamond grading.

This right here is exactly why third party grading is a necessity to the trading card market.

The only reason that cards have been able to achieve the level of prices they have is because a non biased entity gives their opinion and the marketplace has chosen to assign higher values based on it.

Not a week goes by that we don't read about a card surfacing on EBAY that is fake or a story like the guy who is pushing the idea he recently found an extremely valuable Babe Ruth and the third party authenticaters act as a referee and protect consumers from being scammed.

All three major third party graders had the same market opportunity and market forces decided that PSA was king. Was it first mover advantage? Was is better service? Was it marketing? Was it tough grading? Was it the advent of the registry? It probably was a combination of all of these but what really did it is that the most successful collectors that exist have either all or a huge percentage of their collections in PSA graded slabs. I can't speak for Marshall Fogel or Ken Kendrick or Donald Spence but something gave men like this the confidence in the brand and decided to pursue cards graded by PSA.

The third party authentication market is close to a monopoly at this point but no one is forcing anyone to use PSA other than the market. The market is built by a large number of participants and their actions have created the current climate. No one has to participate in the registry. Some think it is great others think it is completely stupid but the population reports that dictate the registry have clearly had a significant impact on values and will continue to.

No one has turned over the hobby to anyone. PSA doesn't set the prices for cards. EBAY doesn't require cards to be graded to be sold. PSA doesn't force someone who submits their cards to join the registry. There are 145,501 active sets currently so a lot of people have decided this is a route they would like to take.

I am a market guy and not a socialist so none of this bothers me. I can either choose to accept it or not. I have.

[vintagebaseballcardguy]

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

Third party grading came about because it was a natural evolution of an industry that assigns grades to a tangible asset and that grade can have a significant impact on the value assigned to it. This is nothing new.

Cars, coins, stamps, diamonds all had third party grading services prior to cards.

I purchased my wife's engagement ring when I was 27 and didn't do an ounce of research. We found a yellow diamond and took the jewelers word for it on the ratings and just assumed it was the case and had our grading report tucked away for many years. Thirteen years later we celebrated our ten year wedding anniversary late last year and she wanted a major upgrade and the first thing I said to her was we need to do some research before we even consider purchasing a new one. It turns out the rating company of our ring was a much lower tier company and over grades the diamonds. I was afraid of this as soon as we started looking into it. The diamond is probably worth 30% of what I paid for it and such is life. That said once we had more information we realized the price range it was going to take to get what she wanted and shortly there after moved forward with purchasing a much larger stone and setting that is graded by the PSA of diamond grading.

This right here is exactly why third party grading is a necessity to the trading card market.

The only reason that cards have been able to achieve the level of prices they have is because a non biased entity gives their opinion and the marketplace has chosen to assign higher values based on it.

Not a week goes by that we don't read about a card surfacing on EBAY that is fake or a story like the guy who is pushing the idea he recently found an extremely valuable Babe Ruth and the third party authenticaters act as a referee and protect consumers from being scammed.

All three major third party graders had the same market opportunity and market forces decided that PSA was king. Was it first mover advantage? Was is better service? Was it marketing? Was it tough grading? Was it the advent of the registry? It probably was a combination of all of these but what really did it is that the most successful collectors that exist have either all or a huge percentage of their collections in PSA graded slabs. I can't speak for Marshall Fogel or Ken Kendrick or Donald Spence but something gave men like this the confidence in the brand and decided to pursue cards graded by PSA.

The third party authentication market is close to a monopoly at this point but no one is forcing anyone to use PSA other than the market. The market is built by a large number of participants and their actions have created the current climate. No one has to participate in the registry. Some think it is great others think it is completely stupid but the population reports that dictate the registry have clearly had a significant impact on values and will continue to.

No one has turned over the hobby to anyone. PSA doesn't set the prices for cards. EBAY doesn't require cards to be graded to be sold. PSA doesn't force someone who submits their cards to join the registry. There are 145,501 active sets currently so a lot of people have decided this is a route they would like to take.

I am a market guy and not a socialist so none of this bothers me. I can either choose to accept it or not. I have.

Not only all of this, but grading can also come in handy when buying/selling in an online world. My area is relatively small and rural compared to a lot of the country. The last show I went to was the 2015 National. Prior to that, I probably hadn't been to a show in ten years. That means that pretty much all of my buying and selling is done online. I am almost to the point to where I don't try and sell anything ungraded online any longer. It is just so much more cut and dried to have cards graded prior to selling them. By the same token, unless I knew the seller really well or had done a lot of business with him, there is almost no way I would buy ungraded cards online anymore.

The other end of this is that buying graded doesn't excuse one from doing his homework first. It is on me (if I am the buyer) to educate myself about the card(s) I am buying both in terms of pricing and in terms of any other nuances particular to that card. There is absolutely no substitute for knowledge. I am still buying the card and not the flip, and in many cases I am still pretty selective on whom I am buying from, especially if the purchase is substantial. I say all of this as someone who has not really been a "grading guy," but I am coming to grips with the direction transactions in this hobby are taking.