Lee Smith & Harold Baines??

[1952boyntoncollector]

I got this from SB Nation


Martinez won two batting titles, led the American League in on-base percentage thrice, doubles twice, and led once each in OPS, OPS+, runs scored and RBI. He was named a Silver Slugger as the best hitter at his position seven times.

Baines won a Silver Slugger once (1989), and led the AL in slugging percentage once (1984). That is the extent of the black ink on his Baseball-Reference page.

Baines was a compiler over a long period of time, which absolutely has value, to be productive over 22 years in the majors. His hit total is relatively high (2,866), good enough to rank 46th all-time. He has 619 more hits than Martinez, which is a lot.

But to put this in perspective, Baines reached base in his career by hit, walk, or hit by pitch 3,942 times, a big number. Martinez reached base 3,619 times, closing the hit gap quite a bit. While Baines did reach base 323 more times than Martinez, he did so in 2,418 more plate appearances. Martinez would have to go 1,513 plate appearances without reaching base to lower his OBP to Baines’ level; that’s nearly three full seasons’ worth.

For now at least, only one of those two is a Hall of Famer. Shocking, indeed.

[vintagewhitesox]

So proud of Harold. Richly deserved.

I do find it funny how some people are shocked/outraged that he made it.
More hits than Jeter, more RBI than Schmidt, Mantle, Speaker, Hornsby, Dimaggio, Matthews, Rice.

Consistent hitter, quiet, just did his job. The anti-White Sox bias is strong still in the national media.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by vintagewhitesox

So proud of Harold. Richly deserved.

I do find it funny how some people are shocked/outraged that he made it.
More hits than Jeter, more RBI than Schmidt, Mantle, Speaker, Hornsby, Dimaggio, Matthews, Rice.

Consistent hitter, quiet, just did his job. The anti-White Sox bias is strong still in the national media.

more hits than jeter????? not quite!

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by vintagewhitesox

So proud of Harold. Richly deserved.

I do find it funny how some people are shocked/outraged that he made it.
More hits than Jeter, more RBI than Schmidt, Mantle, Speaker, Hornsby, Dimaggio, Matthews, Rice.

Consistent hitter, quiet, just did his job. The anti-White Sox bias is strong still in the national media.

That really isn't a good argument. Omar Vizquel had more hits than Gehrig. So what?
Sad Sam Jones and Jerry Reuss had more wins than Pedro.
Could do that sort of comparison forever.

The JAWS metric tries to give equal weight to career stats and peak period, and again, Baines is the 74th best RFer by that metric.

[riggs336]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

That really isn't a good argument. Omar Vizquel had more hits than Gehrig. So what?
Sad Sam Jones and Jerry Reuss had more wins than Pedro.
Could do that sort of comparison forever.

The JAWS metric tries to give equal weight to career stats and peak period, and again, Baines is the 74th best RFer by that metric.

They can put his plaque next to Freddie Lindstrom whose JAWS rating
is 74th among third basemen.

[sreader3]

Donie Bush for Hall of Fame!

Higher career WAR (39.3) than Harold Baines (38.7) and Lee Smith (29.0).

[Chuck9788]

Harold Baines rules! He was a great player and is a well deserved Hall of Famer. Lee Smith is a no brainer. These guys are legends.

The players and mangers you feel are more deserved will earn their keys to Cooperstown in due time.

[gman]

An interesting note is that Baines was only on the BBWAA ballot for five years before being dropped off. The highest percentage he achieved during this time was only 6.1 % (with 75% needed to be elected into the Hall). Just sayin'

[sreader3]

I would like to know what the criteria for election are. Is it the Hall of Fame (name ID in the general public)? The Hall of Stats (some 5-year or career metric of WAR), or something else? Baines and Smith seem to fail every conceivable objective test.

Not picking on them -- many others do too. George Kell anyone?

[bigred1]

I am alright with Smith. Cant see Baines though, in any statistical or other way, someone(s) smiling over him.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by sreader3

I would like to know what the criteria for election are. Is it the Hall of Fame (name ID in the general public)? The Hall of Stats (some 5-year or career metric of WAR), or something else? Baines and Smith seem to fail every conceivable objective test.

Not picking on them -- many others do too. George Kell anyone?

2800 Hits and 1600 RBIs. Mickey Mantle, Joe DiMaggio and Mike Schmidt fail those metrics. Maybe we should kick them out. 450 saves. Eckersley, Gossage, Sutter and Fingers fail that metric. They are out.

I don't understand the obsession with WAR. It is just a made up stat based on a person(s) opinion. Bill James doesn't like it. It clearly has its faults. Why is it so had to allow others to have different opinions? The voters clearly like Baines and Smith's actual production over WAR. Deal with it.

These guys are compilers. There is clearly a place in the HOF for guys like that. Playing at a high level for a long time has always been a way to make it. Lee Smith has more WAR than Hoffman, Fingers and Sutter. He is 3rd all time in saves. He shouldn't be a surprise. He got over 50% of the writers vote. That generally leads to induction.

Baines is a bit of a stretch. However, of players with 2800 hits clean, only Omar Vizquel isn't in the HOF and he is getting a lot of support. Of players with 1600 RBIs clean, Baines was the last not in the HoF. Kell only had 2054 hits and 870 RBIs, he is not in the same class as Baines as are many others. These guys clearly do pass the objective test of Hofers, at least ones elected by Veterans Committees over the years.

[Shoeless Moe]

Originally Posted by vintagewhitesox

So proud of Harold. Richly deserved.

I do find it funny how some people are shocked/outraged that he made it.
More hits than Jeter, more RBI than Schmidt, Mantle, Speaker, Hornsby, Dimaggio, Matthews, Rice.

Consistent hitter, quiet, just did his job. The anti-White Sox bias is strong still in the national media.

Cubs/Sox fan here, and never once did I think of him or Lee Smith as HOFers during their careers or when they ended. A HOFer is a no brainer, you don't need to think on it, they just are. Both were good players, but never great.

By your reasoning you'd have Frank Tanana and Jamie Moyer in over Sandy Koufax. Longevity doesn't mean you were great.

[vintagewhitesox]

Not OVER, but along with.
It's a museum, the more the merrier.

If RBI and HRs dont matter or are not good arguments, whats the point then?

Here's a video of Harold clinching the AL West in 1983. Winning Ugly indeed.

https://youtu.be/qp2XWfMOCLY