Lee Smith & Harold Baines??

[sreader3]

I would like to know what the criteria for election are. Is it the Hall of Fame (name ID in the general public)? The Hall of Stats (some 5-year or career metric of WAR), or something else? Baines and Smith seem to fail every conceivable objective test.

Not picking on them -- many others do too. George Kell anyone?

[bigred1]

I am alright with Smith. Cant see Baines though, in any statistical or other way, someone(s) smiling over him.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by sreader3

I would like to know what the criteria for election are. Is it the Hall of Fame (name ID in the general public)? The Hall of Stats (some 5-year or career metric of WAR), or something else? Baines and Smith seem to fail every conceivable objective test.

Not picking on them -- many others do too. George Kell anyone?

2800 Hits and 1600 RBIs. Mickey Mantle, Joe DiMaggio and Mike Schmidt fail those metrics. Maybe we should kick them out. 450 saves. Eckersley, Gossage, Sutter and Fingers fail that metric. They are out.

I don't understand the obsession with WAR. It is just a made up stat based on a person(s) opinion. Bill James doesn't like it. It clearly has its faults. Why is it so had to allow others to have different opinions? The voters clearly like Baines and Smith's actual production over WAR. Deal with it.

These guys are compilers. There is clearly a place in the HOF for guys like that. Playing at a high level for a long time has always been a way to make it. Lee Smith has more WAR than Hoffman, Fingers and Sutter. He is 3rd all time in saves. He shouldn't be a surprise. He got over 50% of the writers vote. That generally leads to induction.

Baines is a bit of a stretch. However, of players with 2800 hits clean, only Omar Vizquel isn't in the HOF and he is getting a lot of support. Of players with 1600 RBIs clean, Baines was the last not in the HoF. Kell only had 2054 hits and 870 RBIs, he is not in the same class as Baines as are many others. These guys clearly do pass the objective test of Hofers, at least ones elected by Veterans Committees over the years.

[OldOriole]

I don't mind Smith getting in and I've always like Baines, a nice and genuine guy. My question is 'Why did you have to elect Baines under these questionable conditions?'. The 16 person panel voting for induction included Harold's former manager, Harold's former GM, and Harold's former owner. Couldn't you compile a more impartial panel? If he's truly deserving then why stack the deck?

Also, I sure hope this does NOT open the floodgates for similar good players, who were 'compilers'. I've seen several mentioned in this thread. Are tomorrow's mistakes justified by today's?

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by OldOriole

I've seen several mentioned in this thread. Are tomorrow's mistakes justified by today's?

Ah, have you see prices realized on cards after an overpay?

[Jim65]

Originally Posted by OldOriole

Also, I sure hope this does NOT open the floodgates for similar good players, who were 'compilers'. I've seen several mentioned in this thread. Are tomorrow's mistakes justified by today's?

That already happened when Andre Dawson got in, now the gates will open for other nondeserving players like Dave Parker, Dale Murphy, etc.

Lee Smith opens the door for John Franco and Billy Wagner.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Well the voters are changing i assume. Politics starting to be more important and small sample size.

Maybe a term for not sure thing HOFs elected after 2017 or so.... I will need to coin one..

[PowderedH2O]

If you think that Harold Baines lowers the Hall's standards you are sorely mistaken. There are MANY players in the Hall not as accomplished. Yes, this should open the door for the Hernandez, Mattingly, Garvey, Parker, Murphy crowd. I'm ok with that. I thought of those guys as HOFers while active, and they are better than a lot of guys in now.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Jim65

That already happened when Andre Dawson got in, now the gates will open for other nondeserving players like Dave Parker, Dale Murphy, etc.

Lee Smith opens the door for John Franco and Billy Wagner.

Alan Trammell and especially Jack Morris opened the door for Lee Smith and Harold Baines. The Veteran's Committee had been limiting the number of ex-players, but now seems open to putting in guys that just missed the cut with writers. Look for Ted Simmons, Steve Garvey, Tommy John, Don Mattingly, Dale Murphy, Dave Parker or Luis Tiant to be elected next year and Dick Allen, Tony Oliva, Jim Kaat or Minnie Minoso to get elected the year after.

You may consider them nondeserving, but the HOF and its voters do not and it has been that way for a long time. Candy Cummings was elected in 1939. Tommy McCarthy was elected in 1946. Ray Schalk was elected in 1955. Lloyd Waner was elected in 1967. Fred Lindstrom was elected in 1976. Rick Ferrell was elected in 1984. The Veteran's Committee has the job of electing players that were over looked by the writers, who for the most part do a good job with Arky Vaughan and Johnny Mize being the only two really bad misses.

[drcy]

Originally Posted by rats60

Alan Trammell and especially Jack Morris opened the door for Lee Smith and Harold Baines. The Veteran's Committee had been limiting the number of ex-players, but now seems open to putting in guys that just missed the cut with writers. Look for Ted Simmons, Steve Garvey, Tommy John, Don Mattingly, Dale Murphy, Dave Parker or Luis Tiant to be elected next year and Dick Allen, Tony Oliva, Jim Kaat or Minnie Minoso to get elected the year after.

You may consider them nondeserving, but the HOF and its voters do not and it has been that way for a long time. Candy Cummings was elected in 1939. Tommy McCarthy was elected in 1946. Ray Schalk was elected in 1955. Lloyd Waner was elected in 1967. Fred Lindstrom was elected in 1976. Rick Ferrell was elected in 1984. The Veteran's Committee has the job of electing players that were over looked by the writers, who for the most part do a good job with Arky Vaughan and Johnny Mize being the only two really bad misses.

The funny thing in this situation is, unlike all those other players you listed (Murphy, Tiant, Oliva, Parker, etc), Baines was never at any time considered a star or great player by anyone while he was playing-- even for a short period. He was considered basically a non-entity even while he was playing. It may not have panned out, but with Parker and Garvey, for examples, when they were winning the MVP and on All-Star teams, some people thought "We may be looking at a future HOFer here." With Baines, no one ever thought that ever while he was playing. It's not as if he was one of those many former stars that never panned out-- he was never a star.

One sportswriter wrote that Baines doesn't deserve to be in the HOF, but don't be hard on him because he didn't do the selecting. My response is that it is true he didn't do the selecting-- and, in fact, he said he was surprised as anyone that he was selected. However, you can start blaming Baines once he accepts it. That part is his choice. If he says "I'm honored, but I don't deserve it and will respectfully decline," he would be admired if not become a folk hero in baseball history books. If he's enshrined, he will eternally elicit a collect an eyeroll and mocking chuckle anytime someone mentions his name. He'll never be known as "Hall of Famer" but as "One of the Worst Hall of Famers Ever." I googled his name and the word "joke" and you get a lot hits. I didn't try "travesty."

[Peter_Spaeth]

Time to reprise my 2011 Christmas Carol.



Default A Christmas Carol, Cooperstown style

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Deck the Hall with average players
Colavito, Kaat, fa la la la
Vote em in ignore naysayers
Hodges, Tiant, Blue, la la la la
Don we now Mattingly and Baylor
Oliva, Kluszewski, la la la
Deck the Hall with average players
Santo, Reynolds, Staub, la la la la
__________________
Buy high, sell low.

[drcy]

Ha! After my post I did google his name + the word 'travesty'

Google search: Harold Baines + travesty