Roy hallady r.i.p

[1952boyntoncollector]

...duplicate...imagine a witty comment..

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Marchillo

Andy Pettitte being better than Roy Halladay is the most laughable thing I've read in a while.

What is so special about Andy's playoff performance? That he had 10 x's the opportunity that Roy had in the Playoffs? His career winning %, and era are almost identical to his career numbers. So his playoff performance was par for the course but not HOF worthy.

Let's not forget another small little factoid about Andy Pettitte he's an admitted cheater. Roy's career ended at a relatively young age. If he got on a solid HGH regime and played 3-4 more years he could have had another 60 wins added to his resume.

In my opinion Roy is not a sure fire first ballot hall of famer. I think he is a borderline guy. He doesn't have accumulated stats that blow people away 300 wins, 3000 k's, etc. But he at times was the most dominant pitcher in baseball. Something that can't be said about Andy Pettitte or some of the other guys mentioned above.

You can argue but its not laughable.

The cheating thing doesnt really matter anymore especially with pitchers. Just a few more years and we will see guys with a much worse 'cheating' connotation be in the hall.

At times being the most dominated pitcher isnt enough. How is 1 season.? is that enough..how about 2? Its not like he had 6 seasons. Many times the Cy young award is a toss up between a few guys. Petitte was top 6 in the Cy young 5 times and Roy 7 times.

Plus again, you cant penalize a guy from doing well in the post season. Not having chance still hurts you. Thats life. There are great players that never got a chance to do a lot of things, and we dont give them awards either.

If you have a guy that did do something versus a guy that never had a chance, guess what the guy that did do something gets the edge..

the last year petitte pitched he was an all star...he could of continued to pitch if he wanted too and he could of gotten to 300 wins who know...but he never got the opportunity so petitte doesnt get the credit for that. Just like Roy doesnt get any credit for the playoffs since he didnt have the opportunities..

Pettite has the most post season wins in baseball history....roy worst seasons (era over 10 in 13 starts sent down to minors) were much worse than Andys worse seasons...if you want to count the best of the best seasons you need to count the worst of the worse seasons..

Its far from laughable to compare the two

[Snapolit1]

Now they've released footage which seems to show him doing very stupid things with his plane. Damm. Very sad. Clearly a great family man who adored his kids. Should have taken up a safer hobby.

[Shoeless Moe]

What an idiot.

[KMayUSA6060]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Now they've released footage which seems to show him doing very stupid things with his plane. Damm. Very sad. Clearly a great family man who adored his kids. Should have taken up a safer hobby.

My dad, who was a hot air balloon pilot for about a decade and a half and got out of that hobby due to the dangers and him having a family (all similar to Roy; a wife and two kids), said the same thing.

Apparently Roy enjoyed flying real close to the water, as he felt like it was a war plane at that point (WWII water strafes or something...).

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Now they've released footage which seems to show him doing very stupid things with his plane. Damm. Very sad. Clearly a great family man who adored his kids. Should have taken up a safer hobby.

His baseball contract probably did not allow him to fly.

However we still dont know for sure anything. Im sure the airplane maker will use the info to blame pilot error and to avoid any blame to their aircraft.

The too fast to furious actor that died had a claim through his estate for product defect to the car that was crashed..

[Orioles1954]

Originally Posted by Shoeless Moe

What an idiot.

If the video is accurate and unaltered then first ballot. Now his wife and children have to suffer for his arrogance.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by darwinbulldog

Indeed, we know a lot more today about what we were wrong about back then. That was the whole point of Moneyball and the reason the people whose liveihood depends on it now use more sophisticated analyses of their baseball stats.

It's not worth while to respond to a straw man argument equating a lack of control with an intentional walk that happens to work out as planned.

If you just want to use ERA though, you're going to have to distract everyone from the fact that there have been hundreds of pitchers with better ERAs than Ryan. Feel free to throw out guys with fewer than 10 seasons or whatever, but he's nowhere near the top. I think we can agree that adjusted ERA+ provides a more suitable comparison for pitchers from different eras. In any case, we should, as it's more predictive of wins and losses. Halladay ranks #37. Ryan ranks #277.

I take it as a sign of respect for the game and its players that, when one of our favorite players passes away, we do what baseball fans do and engage in passionate discussions of why Wagner was better than Cobb or why Ruth was better than Mays or why Halladay was better than Ryan. If you show up at his funeral to tell his widow that Nolan Ryan was better that's disrespectful (in addition to being patently false). I don't think in a forum such as this at a time such as this we ought to limit ourselves to speaking in platitudes, though Halladay certainly deserves the platitudiest platitudes we can plate. And I'll be happy to drink to his memory with anyone who would care to join me.

We will just have to agree to disagree because I pretty much disagree with everything you have posted. ERA+ is not a good measure to compare Halladay and Ryan. They really weren't from different eras. If you were comparing a modern pitcher to Cy Young that would be different eras. ERAs from Halladay's years in the league were a product of bad pitching in my opinion. Yet, Clayton Kershaw has been able to put up a 2.36 career ERA.

You only want to look a raw numbers and ignore the context of them. You want to ignore proven strategy that is still used today by throwing out "stawman" which doesn't apply. Ryan was the better pitcher. He was more productive (by preventing runs) over a longer period (innings pitched). That doesn't take away from Halladay's greatness. That won't keep Halladay from the HOF. It doesn't mean that there weren't better pitchers than Nolan Ryan, just not Roy Halladay.

[packs]

Originally Posted by Orioles1954

If the video is accurate and unaltered then first ballot. Now his wife and children have to suffer for his arrogance.

Arrogance? Come on. How many times have you gone faster than you should in your car? People who enjoy their hobbies will push their hobbies to extremes. His hobby was flying a plane, other people drive fast cars, others skydive.

[Orioles1954]

Originally Posted by packs

Arrogance? Come on. How many times have you gone faster than you should in your car? People who enjoy their hobbies will push their hobbies to extremes. His hobby was flying a plane, other people drive fast cars, others skydive.

Before I had kids A LOT. After I had children I drive like a granny in the slow lane. My hobbies are baseball cards and record collecting....so nothing where gravity can have an affect I just feel so badly for his family.

[packs]

Originally Posted by Orioles1954

Before I had kids A LOT. After I had children I drive like a granny in the slow lane. My hobbies are baseball cards and record collecting....so nothing where gravity can have an affect I just feel so badly for his family.

I definitely feel for his family. It just seemed a little overkill to call a dead man arrogant for enjoying his hobby. I highly doubt he thought to himself, so what if I die doing this? I think it's more likely he thought, this is pretty fun.

[trdcrdkid]

Just for the record: I think Halladay was a great pitcher who deserves to be in the Hall of Fame and will probably get there eventually. But I'm skeptical that he'll make it on the first ballot, due to the prevalence of certain opinions that have been on display in this thread; he certainly won't get 100% of the vote. His low counting stats (just over 200 wins), his numerous mediocre seasons mixed in with his great ones, his sparse postseason experience relative to other similar pitchers (Petitte, etc.) -- whether you agree with them or not, these are all reasons people give for not thinking Halladay is a HOFer. I don't agree that those things should keep him out, but a not insignificant percentage of people do think that, and I'm sure that includes quite a few Hall of Fame voters.

[Snapolit1]

I don't see where arrogance comes into it. Guy lived life to the hilt and here used some pretty terrible judgment. Everything I've read about him says he was a fantastic down to earth guy. Had the money to buy rich toys.

Athletes frequently think they are invincible. A number of years ago a goalie for the NJ Devils was killed speeding. Lost control of his car on a turn and killed. Forget if he was drunk. I've told the story to my boys and to countless others. If you think you have fast reflexes and can drive like a mad man . . . your reflexes and perception are nothing compared to what his were. His worth unworldly. If he lost control of a speeding car you can very very easily do the same.

[Marchillo]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

You can argue but its not laughable.

The cheating thing doesnt really matter anymore especially with pitchers. Just a few more years and we will see guys with a much worse 'cheating' connotation be in the hall.

At times being the most dominated pitcher isnt enough. How is 1 season.? is that enough..how about 2? Its not like he had 6 seasons. Many times the Cy young award is a toss up between a few guys. Petitte was top 6 in the Cy young 5 times and Roy 7 times.

Plus again, you cant penalize a guy from doing well in the post season. Not having chance still hurts you. Thats life. There are great players that never got a chance to do a lot of things, and we dont give them awards either.

If you have a guy that did do something versus a guy that never had a chance, guess what the guy that did do something gets the edge..

the last year petitte pitched he was an all star...he could of continued to pitch if he wanted too and he could of gotten to 300 wins who know...but he never got the opportunity so petitte doesnt get the credit for that. Just like Roy doesnt get any credit for the playoffs since he didnt have the opportunities..

Pettite has the most post season wins in baseball history....roy worst seasons (era over 10 in 13 starts sent down to minors) were much worse than Andys worse seasons...if you want to count the best of the best seasons you need to count the worst of the worse seasons..

Its far from laughable to compare the two

Top 6 in the Cy Young voting. When did top 6 become a thing. That is laughable.

How about Cy wins 2-0
Top 3 which is much more standard than top 6 which is 5-1 Doc.

Andy was a solid pitcher that compiled a lot of wins over a very long career on some of the best teams and helped extend his career with the aid of PHDs.

[darwinbulldog]

My co-workers have also been extending their careers with PhDs. They're quite open about it.

[Marchillo]

Originally Posted by darwinbulldog

My co-workers have also been extending their careers with PhDs. They're quite open about it.

Lol. Nice typo on my part. Andy Pettitte was a very smart guy I hear!

[sox1903wschamp]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

A number of years ago a goalie for the NJ Devils was killed speeding. Lost control of his car on a turn and killed. Forget if he was drunk.

Not sure about a Devils goalie but there was the tragic car speeding accident in 1985 of Philadelphia Flyers Goalie Pelle Lindbergh. His Blood Alcohol level was .24
Edit to add that the accident was in New Jersey.

[Snapolit1]

Thanks. Must be what I was remembering. Was in NJ not far from where I now live.

[Kenny Cole]

RIP. I don't really want to engage about who was the better pitcher, but Roy Halliday was both a stud and a stand up guy.

My prayers go out to his wife and his kids. This is just awful news. I was floored when I heard it.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Marchillo

Top 6 in the Cy Young voting. When did top 6 become a thing. That is laughable.

How about Cy wins 2-0
Top 3 which is much more standard than top 6 which is 5-1 Doc.

Andy was a solid pitcher that compiled a lot of wins over a very long career on some of the best teams and helped extend his career with the aid of PHDs.

And how many post season wins for Doc? Hes blown out of the water from that.

Also Doc's 2 worst seasons were far worse than anything Pettite did..so 2-0 there as well. As for top 6 or top 3 in cy young...3-6 is a lot of the same class. Baseball reference uses the top 6..and most people go by baseball reference as the standard.

We dont know how Roy would of did on Pettite's teams but Pettite took advantage of his opportunity. He was never sent down to the minors in his 3rd season or later due to ineffectiveness as well. Also its not like the win total is even close. Pettite blows Roy out of the water in that category and counting stats matter until you show me a 300 winner not make to the HOF.

Tim Lincecum won two Cy youngs. .wining a Cy young or two doesnt make you a HOF at all. The counting stats matter and pettite destroys Doc in most of them.

Its laughable you think it is laughable to compare the two.

[ALR-bishop]

http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/...-20171109.html

[darwinbulldog]

Well, that's talk radio for you.

[Shoeless Moe]

I wouldn't say "deserved" to die, but a complete idiot and moron, yes Halladay was that.

Of course maybe he was drunk, like Jose Fernandez, who knows.

[GeorgeBailey2]

I guess I am not quite sure of what I am seeing in the instagram video. I hear a guy saying, "WTF" multiple times. Was he flying upside down or doing a bunch of loops or something?

Perhaps the guy filming did not know that the plane was designed to land on the water. Halladay may have been practicing touch downs. You don't have to actually touch down each time. Perhaps he was being reckless, but it did not appear obvious in the video I saw. In either case, he definitely did not deserve to die.

Very sad.

Speaking of the Phillies and sad, yesterday on Howard Stern, there was a segment called, Memet Spends the Day with Lenny Dykstra. While it was funny, it was also sad.


As far as HOF, I think Halladay gets in but I never thought of him as a first ballot guy.

[darwinbulldog]

All of our choices are caused by a succession of precipitating events that has been unfolding since the Big Bang and over which we exercise no control. It is a deterministic universe, and no one deserves anything.

[timn1]

.

[timn1]

How many post-season no-hitters for Pettitte? He's blown out of the water on that one!

Seriously, Halladay got 5 starts in the postseason, Pettitte 41. Don't you think Pettitte's teams might have had something to do with it?

Personally I think they are both HOFers but IMHO, your reasoning is laughable.

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

And how many post season wins for Doc? Hes blown out of the water from that.

Also Doc's 2 worst seasons were far worse than anything Pettite did..so 2-0 there as well. As for top 6 or top 3 in cy young...3-6 is a lot of the same class. Baseball reference uses the top 6..and most people go by baseball reference as the standard.

We dont know how Roy would of did on Pettite's teams but Pettite took advantage of his opportunity. He was never sent down to the minors in his 3rd season or later due to ineffectiveness as well. Also its not like the win total is even close. Pettite blows Roy out of the water in that category and counting stats matter until you show me a 300 winner not make to the HOF.

Tim Lincecum won two Cy youngs. .wining a Cy young or two doesnt make you a HOF at all. The counting stats matter and pettite destroys Doc in most of them.

Its laughable you think it is laughable to compare the two.

[ALR-bishop]

Originally Posted by darwinbulldog

All of our choices are caused by a succession of precipitating events that has been unfolding since the Big Bang and over which we exercise no control. It is a deterministic universe, and no one deserves anything.

" I hope Life doesn't turn out to be one big joke, because I don's get it"...Jack Handey

[Marchillo]

Originally Posted by timn1

How many post-season no-hitters for Pettitte? He's blown out of the water on that one!

Seriously, Halladay got 5 starts in the postseason, Pettitte 41. Don't you think Pettitte's teams might have had something to do with it?

Personally I think they are both HOFers but IMHO, your reasoning is laughable.

Agree with most of this but not with Pettitte being an hofer.

The argument about 300 wins is also laughable because Pettitte doesn't have 300 or even 270. Also Pettitte has a career 3.83 era I believe. How many hofers have an era that high.

I'll wait.....

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Marchillo

Agree with most of this but not with Pettitte being an hofer.

The argument about 300 wins is also laughable because Pettitte doesn't have 300 or even 270. Also Pettitte has a career 3.83 era I believe. How many hofers have an era that high.

I'll wait.....

Red Ruffing era was 3.8 but he won 273 games.

Roys era is about 3.6, so not sure how that great era supports him (woudl put him bottom 5 of the current 75 pitchers in HOF). Petiite played 2 more years than Roy yet the two worst seasons between the two pitchers are assessed to Roy not Pettite.

The argument about 300 wins is to say that counting stats matter unless someone with 300 wins doesnt go into the HOF. Not sure thats a laughable argument.

Petitte has about 275 combined wins with postseason and regular season compared to how many by Roy...thats the argument that counting stats matter.

Winning 2 cy youngs doesnt get you into the HOF.

Saying its not fair Petitte got wins on teams that Roy didnt get is all about opportunity. It is what it is. Petitte blows Roy out of the water in wins which is a big stat for the HOF.

You want to talk about how many pitchers get into the HOF with a 3.8 era. (or 3.6 for Roy) .i would counter that with how may starters win less than 203 games get into the HOF and not due to early injury/political reason/also closer etc) Smoltz won 213 for example

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Could we please start a new thread about Roy vs Pettitte vs Ryan? This is getting ridiculous.

A man lost his life leaving behind a wife and two young boys yet all ppl care about is where he ranks in xxx list and if he will be a first ballot HoF'er. SMDH.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by timn1

How many post-season no-hitters for Pettitte? He's blown out of the water on that one!

Seriously, Halladay got 5 starts in the postseason, Pettitte 41. Don't you think Pettitte's teams might have had something to do with it?

Personally I think they are both HOFers but IMHO, your reasoning is laughable.

It is what it is. You cant assume Roy would of done well in the postseason, we dont know. .the only data we have is Petitte DID well. Lots of guys dont get opportunities but they are't held in higher regard than people than did get opportunities and came through..

You dont get into the HOF for pitching no hitters


As far as talking about Roy's stats after the recent news. i think its pretty normal to discuss careers of people and where they stand against other peoples careers especially in the entertainment and sports. This is exactly when these discussions occur, after recent news.

[Marchillo]

Try 3.39.

Also Pettitte's whip is gross at 1.351 even higher than Tim Wakefields!

He would be 4th worst there!

[KMayUSA6060]

Here you go guys. Knock yourselves out.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...81#post1718381

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Marchillo

Try 3.39.

Also Pettitte's whip is gross at 1.351 even higher than Tim Wakefields!

He would be 4th worst there!

Even at 3.39/3.40 its still bottom 10 of every pitcher in the HOF..thats hardly a strength

You really digging deep to get to Whip. Lefty Gomez whip was worse than Petitte and Lefty is in the HOF..


..whatever you want to say it didnt cause petitte to lose games...he won 60 or so more games they Roy

[darwinbulldog]

I thought people only pointed to pitchers' career wins out of sarcasm these days, like to "prove" that Don Sutton was better than Tom Seaver, or Jerry Koosman was better than Sandy Koufax or whatever.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by darwinbulldog

I thought people only pointed to pitchers' career wins out of sarcasm these days, like to "prove" that Don Sutton was better than Tom Seaver, or Jerry Koosman was better than Sandy Koufax or whatever.

I thought people did that with sarcasm if that was the ONLY state they were pointing too. People also have that attitude for ERA and Whip as well

However if player A won 300 more games than player B with an equal number of games started, i think it would be silly not to point out the great disparity in wins when comparing the two..

[ALR-bishop]

A lot of similarities to the 1997 John Denver crash




Article on FAA findings on that one

http://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=AwrSb...BZDTZkbHR9NUc-

[1952boyntoncollector]

man that plane looks unsafe...i have flown gyrocopters that looked safer and thats saying a lot

[Shoeless Moe]

John Denver is dead?

[trdcrdkid]

Originally Posted by Shoeless Moe

John Denver is dead?

For the last 20 years, yes.

[darwinbulldog]

I remember at the time my friend relating to me that he had seen a headline on a website "Plane Crashes In California. John Denver Feared Alive." Which is simultaneously one of the most awful and wonderful jokes I've ever heard.

[Shoeless Moe]

Originally Posted by darwinbulldog

I remember at the time my friend relating to me that he had seen a headline on a website "Plane Crashes In California. John Denver Feared Alive." Which is simultaneously one of the most awful and wonderful jokes I've ever heard.

This hysterical!!!! and awful.......but more hysterical

[clydepepper]

Al beat me to posting a picture of the 'plane' Halladay crashed. Reminds me of that gasoline-powered roller-skate they call a 'smart car' - neither looks safe enough for me to consider operating in even the best of conditions.

Here's the photo I found of the ICON A5:

ICON A5.jpg

[darwinbulldog]

Originally Posted by darwinbulldog

It would be tacky of me to try to profit from his death, but how about I apologize to you if I'm wrong about his first ballot election, and you apologize to me when you're wrong?

David, if you're still out there...