Clown on ebay

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

How many in a case? If true this could be fun.

Peter, I told you recently that slabs and flips make they're way out the back door at PSA. People think I'm crazy, don't believe me or just want to bury their head in the sand and pretend it doesn't happen.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=218799
Post #270

OK, whatever. Don't believe it. I don't care. But look at his other thread in the BST section at the fake '52 Mantle. It has one of the newer flips with the PSA hologram. Real slab. Real flip. Fake card. Y'all keep drinking that PSA Kool Aid.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Say what you want about SGC, but these fake cards aren't turning up in SGC slabs. And I know SGC cards don't bring as much money as a PSA counterpart card does, but a fake SGC 96 '86 Jordan or a fake SGC 50 '52 Mantle would still bring a scammer pretty big money. So, ask yourself, why you aren't finding these cards in SGC holders? It's hot outside. How about another big, tall glass of Kool Aid? Cherry or grape?

[ezez420]

Peter or myself arent drinking anything. More people should educate themselves.

I am not involved with any of this stuff. So Hunky Dory you are dead wrong. You are also very wrong how you approached this situation by getting scammed and posting the info of the person who scammed you...with his fake name and all. Now that you have done that, I am sure he will change his number again, get a new ebay id, change his name, reholder your ruth that you sent to him and move on to another victim. And if you were truly working with the federal government I am sure they would have told you to keep your trap shut. So yeah I am calling you out for being a bonehead.

[Eric72]

Wait, let me get this straight.

1. Someone scammed you out of a Goudey Babe Ruth
2. You claim that you're attempting to warn others about the scammer
3. To warn people, you listed the Ruth, a card no longer in your possession, for sale on eBay

It's rather early in the morning. I guess there is a part of your logic that I can't quite comprehend yet. Maybe some caffeine will help me figure this out.

[pherbener]

Originally Posted by Eric72

Wait, let me get this straight.

1. Someone scammed you out of a Goudey Babe Ruth
2. You claim that you're attempting to warn others about the scammer
3. To warn people, you listed the Ruth, a card no longer in your possession, for sale on eBay

It's rather early in the morning. I guess there is a part of your logic that I can't quite comprehend yet. Maybe some caffeine will help me figure this out.

I don't think the guy is selling the card. He is supposedly warning people about the seller he got the bad flips from. That being said something seems a bit off about all of this.. Here's a quote from him in another thread. " I actually spoke with the scammer and he admitted that the Jordan is fake. He claims that he is given these counterfeit cards (see other attached pics) and commissioned to scam people through eBay. He also told me he has done this numerous times and even sold a PSA 10 for $18K!!"

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=224088

So you mean to tell me that you spoke to the seller and he admitted to a random ebay buyer that he's breaking the law and gives specifics??

[Leon]

Originally Posted by pherbener

I don't think the guy is selling the card. He is supposedly warning people about the seller he got the bad flips from. That being said something seems a bit off about all of this.. Here's a quote from him in another thread. " I actually spoke with the scammer and he admitted that the Jordan is fake. He claims that he is given these counterfeit cards (see other attached pics) and commissioned to scam people through eBay. He also told me he has done this numerous times and even sold a PSA 10 for $18K!!"

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=224088

So you mean to tell me that you spoke to the seller and he admitted to a random ebay buyer that he's breaking the law and gives specifics??

Sounds like the Mexico connection to me... allegedly been doing it for years and several authoritative entities have investigated him.

[b8tovene]

As a collector myself this scam really worries me, and I for one, appreciate the OP bringing it to our attention. Honest minds never think of things like this - so it takes hearing about something like this, to appreciate just how far people will go to rip you off in this hobby.

That said, PSA MUST address this issue. There must be some process put in place that allows the collector to know that the card and holder are not only original, but also paired with one another.

[glynparson]

They have been verifying high dollar cards at collectors requests for a while now. If anyone has any concerns about a high dollar purchase i would reach out to one of the big dealers like JP or Andy Madec or Heritage and they can have your cards relooked at and slabbed in the new label new holder for you.

[TUM301]

Originally Posted by Eric72

Wait, let me get this straight.

1. Someone scammed you out of a Goudey Babe Ruth
2. You claim that you're attempting to warn others about the scammer
3. To warn people, you listed the Ruth, a card no longer in your possession, for sale on eBay

It's rather early in the morning. I guess there is a part of your logic that I can't quite comprehend yet. Maybe some caffeine will help me figure this out.

I`m with you Eric, this entire "scam" process is very confusing. The stolen PSA slabs would have been great material for a Soppranos episode though !

[irv]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Say what you want about SGC, but these fake cards aren't turning up in SGC slabs. And I know SGC cards don't bring as much money as a PSA counterpart card does, but a fake SGC 96 '86 Jordan or a fake SGC 50 '52 Mantle would still bring a scammer pretty big money. So, ask yourself, why you aren't finding these cards in SGC holders? It's hot outside. How about another big, tall glass of Kool Aid? Cherry or grape?

As most of you know, I'm a small fish in this big collector sea but based on what I have read and seen on here and other avenues/forums numerous times, I must say PSA is quickly falling out of favor with me.

I have seen cards graded way too low for what they are and cards graded way to high for what they are as well.

This resubmit thing also boggles my mind and as someone said once, PSA= "Please Submit Again" it seems to be what they are hoping for time and time again.

I have some PSA graded cards as well as a few SGC's and a couple Beckett's and I will say, I much prefer the SGC slabbed cards more than I do the PSA's.

Beckett's are also nice, and if it's true that they are nearly impossible to crack, they'll get serious consideration over PSA as well if I ever decide to submit my cards.

[JustinD]

Originally Posted by irv

Beckett's are also nice, and if it's true that they are nearly impossible to crack, they'll get serious consideration over PSA as well if I ever decide to submit my cards.

I am one of the minority that actually prefers to buy in a beckett slab exactly for this reason. The plus side is they also have a good price point in vintage as not many are on my bandwagon.

The opposite is true for modern as beckett has really made a name there. I think vintage will catch up in values as more begin to mistrust PSA slabs.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by JustinD

I am one of the minority that actually prefers to buy in a beckett slab exactly for this reason. The plus side is they also have a good price point in vintage as not many are on my bandwagon.

The opposite is true for modern as beckett has really made a name there. I think vintage will catch up in values as more begin to mistrust PSA slabs.

I have noticed a sharp dropoff in BGS cards relative to PSA. On a few rookies of 80s and 90s players I have looked at recently, a BGS 9.5 barely outsells a PSA 9, and sells for a fraction of a PSA 10.

[botn]

Originally Posted by JustinD

I am one of the minority that actually prefers to buy in a beckett slab exactly for this reason. The plus side is they also have a good price point in vintage as not many are on my bandwagon.

The opposite is true for modern as beckett has really made a name there. I think vintage will catch up in values as more begin to mistrust PSA slabs.

People have been mistrusting PSA slabs for a long time and it has not hurt the registry or prices...it is that concept of something being too big to fail, I guess. In spite of all of their issues I would take a PSA graded card over a Beckett graded card every time. When I see a vintage card in a Beckett holder I immediately start looking for the alteration.

[scotgreb]

I just don't understand why PSA does not scan the cards it grades. It seems like this would solve most of the problems -- at very little, if any, expense.

Scott

[xplainer]

Originally Posted by scotgreb

I just don't understand why PSA does not scan the cards it grades. It seems like this would solve most of the problems -- at very little, if any, expense.

Scott

I agree Scott. Don't they already scan (and print pictures) of PSA/DNA items? Or am I thinking of another company?

[JustinD]

Originally Posted by botn

People have been mistrusting PSA slabs for a long time and it has not hurt the registry or prices...it is that concept of something being too big to fail, I guess. In spite of all of their issues I would take a PSA graded card over a Beckett graded card every time. When I see a vintage card in a Beckett holder I immediately start looking for the alteration.

Not trying to get in a back and forth, but like Leon I find their grading more standard than PSA. I can lay 3 PSA cards with the same midgrade next to each other and they will often look nothing alike. The Becketts will often stay fairly steady.

As for alterations, I have seen many people send a card that BVG or SGC deemed altered given a number by PSA. They all have slip ups and I don't believe that BVG is any worse than the one company that holdered the most famous trimmed card in the world. I don't pledge allegiance to any of them but I like the BVG case for security, that's the main plus to me.

I agree, PSA absolutely sells for a premium and if I was a seller I would use it for the return. However, I am a collector and really enjoy getting what I like at a better price because some stock broker who just wants a card for his desk pays 4x average sale for a brand he recognized more.

[botn]

Originally Posted by JustinD

Not trying to get in a back and forth, but like Leon I find their grading more standard than PSA. I can lay 3 PSA cards with the same midgrade next to each other and they will often look nothing alike. The Becketts will often stay fairly steady.

As for alterations, I have seen many people send a card that BVG or SGC deemed altered given a number by PSA. They all have slip ups and I don't believe that BVG is any worse than the one company that holdered the most famous trimmed card in the world. I don't pledge allegiance to any of them but I like the BVG case for security, that's the main plus to me.

I agree, PSA absolutely sells for a premium and if I was a seller I would use it for the return. However, I am a collector and really enjoy getting what I like at a better price because some stock broker who just wants a card for his desk pays 4x average sale for a brand he recognized more.

Hey Justin,

From a security standpoint, Beckett's holder far surpasses any holder ever designed however as much as I would love to see a third party grader challenge the stranglehold PSA has on the hobby, it is not going to be Beckett. I am glad you are happy with their grading. I have seen far too many cards over the years that have had obvious problems or were not graded very accurately. If I am going to have to settle with an over graded card or one that was graded and should not have been, I would rather that card be in a PSA holder.

[Leon]

I got back a submission of 9 cards yesterday from BVG. Unfortunately what would have been the highest grade of them came back trimmed. To me the rest looked spot on give or take a half grade. I will continue submitting to SGC and BVG.... To me they are the most consistent. For full transparency, they are both advertisers and PSA would be welcomed as an advertiser too if they so desired.

Originally Posted by irv

As most of you know, I'm a small fish in this big collector sea but based on what I have read and seen on here and other avenues/forums numerous times, I must say PSA is quickly falling out of favor with me.

I have seen cards graded way too low for what they are and cards graded way to high for what they are as well.

This resubmit thing also boggles my mind and as someone said once, PSA= "Please Submit Again" it seems to be what they are hoping for time and time again.

I have some PSA graded cards as well as a few SGC's and a couple Beckett's and I will say, I much prefer the SGC slabbed cards more than I do the PSA's.

Beckett's are also nice, and if it's true that they are nearly impossible to crack, they'll get serious consideration over PSA as well if I ever decide to submit my cards.

[begsu1013]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Say what you want about SGC, but these fake cards aren't turning up in SGC slabs.

It's hot outside. How about another big, tall glass of Kool Aid? Cherry or grape?

probably for the same reason they dont fake seiko watches?

not knocking sgc, just saying. if your goal is to scam, youre prolly gonna roll w/ the company w the highest prices realized.

but if they wanted to and w a nominal cost, they could very easily replicate a sgc holder. china.

its not like sgc slabs are made of some special plastic.


good on the kool-aid, but if ya got a wild cherry capri sun...snag me one of those, please.

[begsu1013]

and there is a way to protect yourself.

downside: it benefits psa.

sucks, but whats another few bucks to sleep well on a major purchase?

and yes, i realize you shouldnt have to.

but that still doesnt mean it doesnt make sense to just go ahead and do it to add another level of protection.



upside: when selling, you have paperwork in hand from psa to show any perspective buyers that you yourself had the card reverified by them.


and agree wholeheartedly on the notion of them scanning cards and adding it to thier cert verification page.

[Stonepony]

Originally Posted by begsu1013

and there is a way to protect yourself.

downside: it benefits psa.

sucks, but whats another few bucks to sleep well on a major purchase?

and yes, i realize you shouldnt have to.

but that still doesnt mean it doesnt make sense to just go ahead and do it to add another level of protection.



upside: when selling, you have paperwork in hand from psa to show any perspective buyers that you yourself had the card reverified by them.


and agree wholeheartedly on the notion of them scanning cards and adding it to thier cert verification page.

I've never heard of this. I don't see " Verify holder" as an option on their submission form. Would it fall under "Review"? What kind of " paperwork" do they send you that essentially says we examined the card in the holder and it is our holder? The card , in holder with a grade IS their verification. Tell me about this paperwork, I've never seen it mentioned before.

[begsu1013]

Originally Posted by Stonepony

I've never heard of this. I don't see " Verify holder" as an option on their submission form. Would it fall under "Review"? What kind of " paperwork" do they send you that essentially says we examined the card in the holder and it is our holder? The card , in holder with a grade IS their verification. Tell me about this paperwork, I've never seen it mentioned before.

(dave, posting this in verbage and depth for future folks that may stumble across it or have additional questions, i know you are knowledgeable on most of this stuff already)

there is not a "psa" option, just a personal protocol that i follow on certain monetary thresholds.

most of my purchases come directly from sellers that accept paypal or ebay. i don't use the fnf option as there is technically a way around the fees but does require a lil flexibility from the seller and timing if you cant necessarily pay for the card twice in one month. different topic for a different day.

here's the basic jist of my personal protocol.

few additional hoops and monetary costs associated w/ it, but peace of mind is key.

to date, it's saved me 3 times* and has yet to fail me:


1. never meet in an alley or pay in cash.

2. if it's too good to be true, it is.

3. register your cards on psa site. this could give you a quick heads up that something may not be right if the cert doesnt get released and you are asked to send proof scans.
this is basically a crucial heads up that something may not be right.

4. if something is up and someone else has same card/cert and it doesnt get released, psa will send you a prepaid mailing slip. be sure to notify the seller exactly what has transpired and that you were asked to send the card in by psa. this is evidence, so keep it. it also helps the seller know of a potential threat and where there is one bad card, there are probably a few more, ie "scam alert: cardregistry" thread here.

5. purchase w/ reg paypal funded w/ your amex.**

6. even if there isnt a cert issue, send card to psa under the "review" option as soon as it's in your possession. don't be lazy here.

7. this gets you paperwork from psa that it's been reverified while in your possession,
helps you sleep and this credibly assists you in the event you resell. plus you might even get a bump.
it's basically a four'fer.***

* only 1 issue w/ fake holder, but protocol has saved me a few times on ebay scams in which an acct has been hijacked and the seller shipped ups packages to a random address in my same hometown simply to auto-pass the computerized ebay "delivery confirmed" system which buys them more time to sell/withdraw funds as it goes thru the "claim" process you start. so don't rely on web option. pick up the damn phone, immediately ask for hv fraud support and take the few extra 5 mins to make the call so you don't waste 7 days on the auto-computerized claim. you will lose simply because the computer system technically sees that it was "delivered".


** amex has the customers back, not the vendors. while you still have the burdern of proof if something is suspect,
your money isnt hijacked or held. it's credited back instantly.

this is very important though: you have 3 levels of protection here. ebay>paypal>amex.

do not call amex first. if you do, it eliminates the ebay>paypal layers of protection instantly and you're only limited to amex's process/decision.

they will also do a subpar auto investigation where it tracking number shows "delivered to your hometown" and will initially lose there as well.

let those always run thier course. i beleive the ebay return gaurantee is 30 days which could expire considering

the time it takes to get mailed to you, you mail to them, to get logged in, to get reviewed, the "weekend" factor, etc.

but the paypal and amex claim windows definitely exceed the timeframe it should require to get it resolved.


*** might as well get it reholdered why it's there as well. but yes it sucks to pay psa again, but considering the amounts on the altered holders whats a few more dollars to sleep well.

however:

the max cap on a "reholder" is $35, i think.
the max cap on a "review" is $700, i think.

quite a difference, so i also need to press further to if the "reholder" option actually verifies the card itself.

i would assume it does, but do not know for certain. i vaguely remember asking before, need to check though.

its always been in the back of my mind to press hard and get it in writing, but this may be the kick in the arse i need to finally get an answer.

[gnaz01]

Originally Posted by begsu1013

probably for the same reason they dont fake seiko watches?

Oh yes they do!! The Chinese knock off's are very good fakes..........

[begsu1013]

Originally Posted by gnaz01

Oh yes they do!! The Chinese knock off's are very good fakes..........

seem pretty excited there.

and yes, they also fake hanes tshirts and rubbers.

but you do see my point, correct?

with china and their artistry of replication, theres not too many things that cant be replicated these days.

and an sgc holder certainly isnt one of them.

if graded cards were as popular as watches, tshirts and rubbers there would definitely be fakes of just about every brand and a much more rampant number of crooks doing it.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by begsu1013

seem pretty excited there.

and yes, they also fake hanes tshirts and rubbers.

but you do see my point, correct?

with china and their artistry of replication, theres not too many things that cant be replicated these days.

and an sgc holder certainly isnt one of them.

if graded cards were as popular as watches, tshirts and rubbers there would definitely be fakes of just about every brand and a much more rampant number of crooks doing it.

right they will fake 1963 Topps cards... and also 1999 topps cards because they fake everything..

[begsu1013]

btw: and if you told a buddy that you bought a fake watch the other day and gave him three guesses as to what brand, i doubt very seriously a sieko would be one of them.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by begsu1013

probably for the same reason they dont fake seiko watches?

not knocking sgc, just saying. if your goal is to scam, youre prolly gonna roll w/ the company w the highest prices realized.

but if they wanted to and w a nominal cost, they could very easily replicate a sgc holder. china.

its not like sgc slabs are made of some special plastic.


good on the kool-aid, but if ya got a wild cherry capri sun...snag me one of those, please.

You totally missed my point. As Greg already mentioned, yes, there are indeed fake Seiko watches. Heck, there are fake Timex watches. Wanna buy one? Here you go...

http://www.replicafree.net/timex-watches.html

I already told you why you don't see these fake cards in SGC slabs and it has nothing to do with the fact that a PSA card will outsell it's SGC counterpart. If you want to ignore the truth, that's fine with me.

[begsu1013]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

If you want to ignore the truth, that's fine with me.

please, indulge me...

what makes an sgc so unique in that it cant be replicated?

ive already explained that if graded cards were more popular that just about any company's holder would be replicated.

there's also a consensus that most of these holders are originating from one source. obviously that source decided to replicate the company w the highest prices realized.

even if it turns out to be the other idea of "an inside job", then that obviously explains why they are using psa holders.

but again, tell me why sgc holders are so superior that they cant be replicated as i just told you why they arent.

and never did get that capri sun.

[begsu1013]

dp.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Peter, I told you recently that slabs and flips make they're way out the back door at PSA. People think I'm crazy, don't believe me or just want to bury their head in the sand and pretend it doesn't happen.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=218799
Post #270

OK, whatever. Don't believe it. I don't care. But look at his other thread in the BST section at the fake '52 Mantle. It has one of the newer flips with the PSA hologram. Real slab. Real flip. Fake card. Y'all keep drinking that PSA Kool Aid.

What's your evidence that this happens David? Some anonymous guy claiming some unnamed AH told him isn't exactly proof.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

What's your evidence that this happens David? Some anonymous guy claiming some unnamed AH told him isn't exactly proof.

Peter, the evidence is fake (or altered) cards showing up in real PSA slabs with real PSA flips. And its not a matter of the cards being switched out cards because the slabs havent been compromised.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Peter, the evidence is fake (or altered) cards showing up in real PSA slabs with real PSA flips. And its not a matter of the cards being switched out cards because the slabs havent been compromised.

Assuming you are right about them not being compromised, how do you know they aren't having their own fabricated? This doesn't strike me as high technology, it's a piece of cheap plastic.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Ironically, this email just arrived from PSA.

Just like His Airness, PSA Holders Come in Clutch

As a leader in the collectibles world, we’re devoted to
the steadfast pursuit of the most secure collectibles technology.
Our sonically-sealed, ultra-secure holders are the result of that pursuit.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Assuming you are right about them not being compromised, how do you know they aren't having their own fabricated? This doesn't strike me as high technology, it's a piece of cheap plastic.

I think its highly unlikely that someone is fabricating fake slabs AND flips. Some of these cards have the new flip with the new hologram.

Again I ask, why arent these fake cards turning up in SGC slabs? Sure, PSA outsells SGC, but a fake '52 Mantle even in an SGC slab would bring decent money.

[Stonepony]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Assuming you are right about them not being compromised, how do you know they aren't having their own fabricated? This doesn't strike me as high technology, it's a piece of cheap plastic.

+1 I would guess that fabricating counterfeit slabs would be a simple task for those so inclined.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Stonepony

+1 I would guess that fabricating counterfeit slabs would be a simple task for those so inclined.

How simple would it be to send one of the fake cards to PSA and have them confirm whether or not it was their slab and/or flip? Thats why PSA is silent on this.

[Stonepony]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

How simple would it be to send one of the fake cards to PSA and have them confirm whether or not it was their slab and/or flip? Thats why PSA is silent on this.

I don't know David, but that's a step in the buying/ collecting process I'd just as soon not have to pursue. I just hope it gets figured out. I would hope this is a top priority with PSA because if your consumers begin to question the legitimacy of your product , there most certainly will be some repercussions.