Net54 Exemplar File

[Runscott]

Would such a thing be possible?

Just thinking, it would be great if we could somehow gather exemplars for the most commonly-questioned 'is it real?' autographs (e.g: Ruth, Mantle, Ali, Williams,etc.) in an 'area' on the board. Then people could first be pointed to that area with the idea that they would come back and tell us THEIR opinion first.

The trick would be determining a method for including exemplars;i.e-who on the board would approve them? (perhaps a handful of members would have 'veto' power, etc.)

Thoughts?

[mr2686]

I think that's a great idea, and long overdue.

[ATP]

Agreed. I have a very large exemplar file myself and could have plenty to add. Like you mentioned the logistics of what goes in would have to be squared away though.

[Leon]

We can probably make a dedicated area for them and only give certain people "write" privileges....or however folks would want it. If we get enough people on board we can start looking at ways to do it....

[jgmp123]

I think this is a great idea and would to be a part of a project like this!

[Leon]

Originally Posted by jgmp123

I think this is a great idea and would to be a part of a project like this!

Just to be clear, I am not going to take the lead on this project , but I will work with whomever is, in order to help make it a success. Many times things sound great until it's time to do something. (which is ok too) I am fairly neutral, as I don't collect autographs, but am almost always willing to lend a hand to help with operational stuff.

[David Atkatz]

Sounds like a great idea to me, Scott.

[bender07]

Agreed, I'd love to help. I would like to see it expanded beyond Hall of Famers.

[JimStinson]

Apart from being time consuming ...Wouldn't we then need to start a "sub" forum to argue which of the examples are REAL and which ones are Not ?

Also ...most of the REAL tough examples both Hall of Fame and Non Hall of Fame are examples that most WON'T want to share for obvious reasons. Especially legit handwriting samples.

Maybe I'm missing something and sure don't want to be the fly in the ointment or what ever it is they call it but multiple autograph examples both good and bad can be easily accessed on line using any one of the major search engines in a matter of seconds.

And last but not least a false impression might be conveyed that just by comparing an autograph side by side , authenticity (or lack of it) can be determined. In reality its a little more complicated than that. IMHO
_________________________
jim@stinsonsports.com

I buy and sell vintage Baseball Autographs
stinsonsports.com

[Runscott]

'Flies in the ointment' are good.

I google in order to make decisions, but many will google, find a sig with an associated loa, and decide that's an 'exemplar'. The expertise in this subforum allows us to make better decisions. Just wondering if we can tap our own expertise in a more organized fashion.

[Runscott]

Jim, several recent topics got me thinking more about this idea: all the Ali threads, the many Mantle and Williams threads over the years, but most recently, my purchase (finally) of a Ruth. I solicited opinions from 5 different board members (2 indirectly via a thread and luckily, both responded), and the other 3 more or less directly. There were varying factors in these opinions, but I learned more than I expected to (thanks). It was fun for me because while I respect all of your opinions, some of you don't seem to care much for each other. It made me wonder if it wouldn't be possible to build a framework for all of you working together a bit more.

it's certainly possible that this proposition is impossible, but it is worth at least discussing.

[JimStinson]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Jim, several recent topics got me thinking more about this idea: all the Ali threads, the many Mantle and Williams threads over the years, but most recently, my purchase (finally) of a Ruth. I solicited opinions from 5 different board members (2 indirectly via a thread and luckily, both responded), and the other 3 more or less directly. There were varying factors in these opinions, but I learned more than I expected to (thanks). It was fun for me because while I respect all of your opinions, some of you don't seem to care much for each other. It made me wonder if it wouldn't be possible to build a framework for all of you working together a bit more.
it's certainly possible that this proposition is impossible, but it is worth at least discussing.

What did you mean ? "Some of you don't seem to care much for each other ?" I thought we were all friends
__________________________
jim@stinsonsports.com

I Buy & Sell Baseball Autographs
stinsonsports.com

[Runscott]

That was another reason I thought this might be a good idea

[GrayGhost]

I think its a good idea, but some have this " I don't want to share what I know attitude" I don't know if that is to deter forgers, or out of cockiness/arrogance, or some combination. Everyone appreciates all the fine help on here, b ut I just don't know if it would work overall.

Also, do your research. I agree on this, but some of the forgeries are really good, and maybe some on here just would like more of the "why" instead of Just " an obvious forgery" or looks like a so and so forgery. huh?

[jimjim]

I think the main reason is to deter forgers. And it is human nature to want that positive reinforcement, so people are still going to post "is this mantle real?" even with a file. Don't we all want to see Shelly's smiley faces on their threads!!??

[Deertick]

I think it is a great idea, although the logistics may be an issue.

• If there is a sticky thread of 'Good' and/or 'Bad', would it be user friendly enough to be effective?
• Can the "is it good" thread photo easily be added to the "Exemplar" thread?

For example, I think that Mark's (?) boxing exemplars replies are outstanding in that it show's the bad along with several (dozen sometimes ) good.

One option would to be to create a sub-forum and have threads on good and bad for particular players. Posts would be updated as consensus is reached, but any discussion would be kept separate from the "exemplar" threads.

That being said, a project like this seems difficult on a chat forum. It may well be better suited to a web page format.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Deertick

One option would to be to create a sub-forum and have threads on good and bad for particular players. Posts would be updated as consensus is reached, but any discussion would be kept separate from the "exemplar" threads.

That being said, a project like this seems difficult on a chat forum. It may well be better suited to a web page format.

Everyone makes very good points. When I posted, I had no idea if logistically something like this would work, and I still don't. As you and others have pointed out, exemplar files alone would not be enough.

A concern I had was that even within a pool of Net54 experts on a particular signer, there can be significant disagreement over a particular item;i.e-some are certain it's bad and others are certain it's good. There would have to be agreement that such a scenario is okay, and it might be addressed by having exemplar threads for 'good', 'bad' and 'mixed opinions'. That might be a forum 'evolution' from the bloody battles we've had in the past.

Even if nothing comes of this, it's worth having the discussion.

[Leon]

I am just toying with the idea but the little forum I just created is locked right now.....just getting some ideas. I don't think there will be any issues operationally. I have serious concerns regarding other issues, but the board is easily adaptable, operationally. And this might not be the right way, that I just tried, but it shows almost anything can be done...

[Sean1125]

I could contribute a few Mantles, Dimaggios, and Williams to exemplars. I would be interested to see what others would contribute.

[Runscott]

Leon, here's an idea.

I think others have a good point that the discussions are more valuable than actual exemplars. What if we had a sub-forum of autograph discussions, with threads grouped by player? That way, if someone had a question about Mantle, for example (rhyme), they could go find the 'Mantle' area and look through various discussion threads.

The trick would be deciding which discussions were worthy of adding as exemplars.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Leon, here's an idea.

I think others have a good point that the discussions are more valuable than actual exemplars. What if we had a sub-forum of autograph discussions, with threads grouped by player? That way, if someone had a question about Mantle, for example (rhyme), they could go find the 'Mantle' area and look through various discussion threads.

The trick would be deciding which discussions were worthy of adding as exemplars.

I will help with anything ya'll want Scott. Historically, interest has waned quickly in these types of ventures (see game used forums on this board) but I am willing to do whatever you guys want. As mentioned, I only have limited personal interest, at best, in autographs. I did add an Ali one to the subforum . You guys figure out what you want, and if it has enough interest.....then we can go from there. It really doesn't matter how ya'll do it, to me. It's ya'lls ball of wax......

[mr2686]

If there is going to be an exemplar file, I think it would be useful to add in the description of each autograph if it was obtained first person, obtain from which dealer (if applicable) and approximate year signed (if known). I think that would help to show variations from year to year etc.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Leon, here's an idea.

I think others have a good point that the discussions are more valuable than actual exemplars. What if we had a sub-forum of autograph discussions, with threads grouped by player? That way, if someone had a question about Mantle, for example (rhyme), they could go find the 'Mantle' area and look through various discussion threads.

The trick would be deciding which discussions were worthy of adding as exemplars.

I could easily move threads to that forum I just created...and have it as read only. Again, whatever you guys want is fine by me.

edited to add...I deleted that forum, it was only to show what can be done. The jury is out...

[mschwade]

Originally Posted by Runscott

'Flies in the ointment' are good.

I google in order to make decisions, but many will google, find a sig with an associated loa, and decide that's an 'exemplar'. The expertise in this subforum allows us to make better decisions. Just wondering if we can tap our own expertise in a more organized fashion.

Excellent suggestion. The biggest thing (besides obviously accuracy with these examples) will be searchability!

[Maddog]

Love the idea. This is exactly what the hobby needs and I'll contribute whatever I can.
The only problem I see is, as mentioned, it's probably better to describe what makes a particular autograph "good" versus just posting a photo. Not sure how many to the "Top Guns" would share that hard learned knowledge.
Also, I remember discussing this with an esteemed member here a while back and we agreed that to do something like this really well would be about the size of a dozen volume set
It's worth a shot.

[JimStinson]

Originally Posted by Maddog

Love the idea. This is exactly what the hobby needs and I'll contribute whatever I can.
The only problem I see is, as mentioned, it's probably better to describe what makes a particular autograph "good" versus just posting a photo. Not sure how many to the "Top Guns" would share that hard learned knowledge.
Also, I remember discussing this with an esteemed member here a while back and we agreed that to do something like this really well would be about the size of a dozen volume set
It's worth a shot.

I think its a Great idea too , In fact a sensational idea ...in theory, But in practice ? Don't know.

I can speak for most autograph dealers/collectors at least the ones that I know and they have never been cheap with their time or efforts to help with authentication and most of us do it for free or a nominal fee.

Its not like there is some deep dark secret in sharing the WHY either .....but usually the WHY can't be condensed into a 30 second sound bite or cookie cutter description of slant , formation etc.

The best example I can think of is I turn on my car one morning and hear a clacking noise, Knowing nothing about mechanics I take it to the guy that works on my car who's been working on cars for 40 years and before I even get half way in the driveway he says "Oh.... its the catalytic condenser filter whats a whos it"

Now my answer to that is "Can you fix it ? & How long will it take ?" ........OR..........I can ask him "HOW DO YOU KNOW THAT ? or WHY ?"

Now if he was kind enough to pull up a chair and TRY and condense what it has taken him 40 years to learn into ...maybe an hour, As intently as I would try and listen I would not have a CLUE what he was talking about.

I hate to admit this but I have never even read the "owners manual" for my car.... Does anyone ???

Well explaining the what's and whys of if an autograph is real (or not) IN DETAIL is a lot like that. No great genius at work. Just time and practice.

Albert Einstein was asked once if he carried around a note pad and pencil with him....he asked "Why?" and the interviewer said "In case you get any great ideas you can write them down and share them" and Einstein said "I rarely get any good ideas" ... (apparently when he got them they were REAL DOOZIES) .....point is time and practice makes a lot of seemingly complicated things second nature , from physics to car care and everything in between
__________________________
jim@stinsonsports.com

Jim Stinson Buying and Selling Vintage Baseball Autographs
stinsonsports.com

[David Atkatz]

What he said.

[JimStinson]

jim@stinsonsports.com

[Runscott]

I agree with what Jim said and I find all the "is this Mantle real?" threads at least interesting enough to open.

Random is fine with me. Just thought maybe we could channel some of the expertise that we have here.

[jgmp123]

I don't even care about description as to "why" as much as just compiling what are known authentic examples of signatures. I am more interested in seeing the autograph examples that are rarely seen, along with some of the every day Mantle, Williams, Ali, etc. Also, building this library with only examples from Net54 member collection would be a pretty neat way to display some of the items we have.

[Mr. Zipper]

Originally Posted by JimStinson

I think its a Great idea too , In fact a sensational idea ...in theory, But in practice ? Don't know.

+1

To untrained eyes, decent fakes "look the same" as real exemplars. A gallery of verified exemplars might help someone get their start, but will not be a shortcut to expertise.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Mr. Zipper

+1

To untrained eyes, decent fakes "look the same" as real exemplars. A gallery of verified exemplars might help someone get their start, but will not be a shortcut to expertise.

Interesting thought - I hadn't thought of this as a shortcut to expertise, or even to help someone get their start. I was merely thinking of a way to gather the forum's expertise in such a way that people would have things (either discussion threads or exemplars) to look at before they started new "hey, is this real?" threads.

But it looks like very few (if any) of the forum's experts are interested in such an idea. Let me ask it a different way: we've proposed grouping 'exemplar' discussion threads under player 'area' instead of actually posting exemplars. Is this a workable solution? Or is that also too much like sharing expertise?

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Interesting thought - I hadn't thought of this as a shortcut to expertise, or even to help someone get their start. I was merely thinking of a way to gather the forum's expertise in such a way that people would have things (either discussion threads or exemplars) to look at before they started new "hey, is this real?" threads.

But it looks like very few (if any) of the forum's experts are interested in such an idea. Let me ask it a different way: we've proposed grouping 'exemplar' discussion threads under player 'area' instead of actually posting exemplars. Is this a workable solution? Or is that also too much like sharing expertise?

Scott- I think there is a lot of interest and even more apathy.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Leon

Scott- I think there is a lot of interest and even more apathy.

Apathy is absolutely fine - I just don't want to ruffle feathers.

Personally, I think 'gathering worthy threads' is the best option.

Not sure how that would work logistically, but choosing the threads doesn't have to be done all at once. I'll start bookmarking the ones that I think are good.

[chaddurbin]

i don't think your suggestion ruffles any feathers with the experts around. you can group hundreds of exemplars around here and it won't affect the business of the stinson & simon firm . as they've said many times comparing examplars is the first and LAST step they do. good forgers are trained to copy good signatures. it doesn't make you an expert or know how to authenticate by comparing known good examplars, autographing is not cut and dry like a reprinted t206 or fake cracker jack.

imo there's a danger when you put up the examplars w/o context or reference and someone looking through say well this T lines up to that authentic T perfectly and the ending stroke is spot on in that Speaker so mine must be real...the good forgers prey on that kind of holiday inn express authentication.

[travrosty]

or as i call it, psa or jsa authentication. holiday inn express authentication is preferable.

[Runscott]

Thanks for the helpful comment, Travis. Do you have anything to add that would pertain to the actual topic?

[JimStinson]

Originally Posted by chaddurbin

i don't think your suggestion ruffles any feathers with the experts around. you can group hundreds of exemplars around here and it won't affect the business of the stinson & simon firm . as they've said many times comparing examplars is the first and LAST step they do. good forgers are trained to copy good signatures. it doesn't make you an expert or know how to authenticate by comparing known good examplars, autographing is not cut and dry like a reprinted t206 or fake cracker jack.

imo there's a danger when you put up the examplars w/o context or reference and someone looking through say well this T lines up to that authentic T perfectly and the ending stroke is spot on in that Speaker so mine must be real...the good forgers prey on that kind of holiday inn express authentication.

+1 , perfectly stated !!! Context & reference VERY, VERY important and let me briefly add that from "This side" when I tell someone I don't believe an autograph is good, Often the rebuttal is "Well it LOOKS just like the other ones"........IT IS SUPPOSED TO LOOK LIKE THE "OTHER" ONES !!! A forger is not intent on "blazing a new trail" and making his "different" from the other ones..
______________________
jim@stinsonsports.com

I buy & sell Vintage Baseball autographs
stinsonsports.com

[ATP]

One of the things I would find most useful (and this is one of the things I love most about everyone here), is the huge depth of knowledge in some very small details, combined. Let me explain it in another way. As many have stated, finding exemplars is not too hard, what is really hard sometimes is finding enough exemplars for something very specific (meaning, some known exemplars of Mantles signature in 1954 vs what it looked like in 1955-1957, as it changed a little bit each year until he settled in). It takes quite a bit more digging for me to find multiple examples of a specific year that I can rely on. And contracts and checks, etc don't always cut it if it's on a ball for example. That is why I love when people post a signature that they have definitely dated to a certain day or even year.

The thing is, I am just not so sure that a forum environment is the best avenue for this, logistically. I personally have thousands upon thousands of signatures saved I have either owned or reviewed, but that is more like having an archive type of site to put them on.

[Lordstan]

My suggestion.

Perhaps, rather than an exemplar file, which I think would be very labor intensive to maintain, how about a subforum for opinion requests? The format of this subforum could be long specific player posts.
For example, The first post could be "Mickey Mantle." All requests for Mantle help and their respective replies could be put under that one post. This would make it easy for people to find comparators, both good and bad for the same person. Perhaps with each request, responders could use the like and dislike buttons to identify their opinion. This would make it easy for anyone to quickly find and identify the bad ones without having to read pages of f/u posts. Additionally, a responder could add a new post to the thread with a more detailed opinion if they wish.(I wouldn't want to rob Shelly of his happy and sad faces!)
Each player, of significance at least, could have their own thread. Mantle, Dimaggio, Williams, Ruth, and Mays immediately come to mind as being asked about enough to justify their own thread.

I realize that most of the same results could be achieved by utilizing the search function. My suggestion would just serve to group similar stuff together a bit more.

Edit: I just realized this forum, doesn't have a like/dislike function with each post. Perhaps this functionality could be added? I don't know how the software for the forum works, but I have seen those buttons in other forums, perhaps it's something that is easy to add?

[Deertick]

Originally Posted by Lordstan

My suggestion.

Perhaps, rather than an exemplar file, which I think would be very labor intensive to maintain, how about a subforum for opinion requests? The format of this subforum could be long specific player posts.
For example, The first post could be "Mickey Mantle." All requests for Mantle help and their respective replies could be put under that one post. This would make it easy for people to find comparators, both good and bad for the same person. Perhaps with each request, responders could use the like and dislike buttons to identify their opinion. This would make it easy for anyone to quickly find and identify the bad ones without having to read pages of f/u posts. Additionally, a responder could add a new post to the thread with a more detailed opinion if they wish.(I wouldn't want to rob Shelly of his happy and sad faces!)
Each player, of significance at least, could have their own thread. Mantle, Dimaggio, Williams, Ruth, and Mays immediately come to mind as being asked about enough to justify their own thread.

I realize that most of the same results could be achieved by utilizing the search function. My suggestion would just serve to group similar stuff together a bit more.

Edit: I just realized this forum, doesn't have a like/dislike function with each post. Perhaps this functionality could be added? I don't know how the software for the forum works, but I have seen those buttons in other forums, perhaps it's something that is easy to add?

A poll would accomplish the same thing as a like/dislike feature. A problem that I see with separate non-administered threads is that good and bad will co-mingle, and it will become just as cumbersome. Unless I misunderstood and you meant threads in sub-sub forums?

[jgmp123]

Originally Posted by Deertick

A poll would accomplish the same thing as a like/dislike feature. A problem that I see with separate non-administered threads is that good and bad will co-mingle, and it will become just as cumbersome. Unless I misunderstood and you meant threads in sub-sub forums?

or if some impatient fella's post didn't get replied to immediately, then he'll probably post it in the Autograph forum anyway...

[Lordstan]

Jim,
What I mean is this...
1) Sub forum of Autograph forum named "Autograph opinions" or similar.
2) Threads in sub-forum labeled by name of player
3) All requests for help and responses to those requests posted in that thread.
4) Using a Like/Dislike feature for each opinion request post to create a type of mini poll for each request in thread. Below each post it could read something like
"X number of people liked this post" with a list of names
"X number of people disliked this post" with a list of names
5) Responders can add a f/u post explaining their opinion in more detail if they desire.

Yes. This would mean that good and bad would be mixed together, but I don't think it would be cumbersome at all. As of right now, if you want to research Mantle, you have to open every separate thread and read a bunch of posts to understand if the general opinion of the board about the item in question is good or bad. I think going to one thread that has good and bad mixed with a mini poll beneath each stating whether the consensus is good or bad would have way more utility. I think seeing the bad ones is just as important as seeing the good ones when learning about judging autographs.

To James' point, I also think each post will likely get more responses using the Like/Dislike feature. It's easy to see how many views each post has, yet for various reasons, only a few may actually respond. A quick yes/no option would allow people to respond quickly and easily.

I just think a full exemplar section, while a great idea, has too many challenges to pull off well without someone willing to dedicate a large chunk of time to administer it.

[travrosty]

50% of th inquiries on the board regarding "is this authentic?" are the big 3 so to start there with those three guys would make the most sense.