Braun Suspended for Balance of the 2013 Season

[BlueDevil89]

Will they never learn...

[HRBAKER]

No they won't until they start voiding contracts.
He made some "mistakes," yeah, getting caught.

[kmac32]

They need to take his MVP award away. Too bad he got off on a technicality before. Cheater and a liar.

[BlueDevil89]

Originally Posted by kmac32

They need to take his MVP award away. Too bad he got off on a technicality before. Cheater and a liar.

Pulling the MVP award would be morally justified (if not technically supported by "the rules"). Unfortunately, the 2011 NL MVP Award is really a joke. At the very least, it should be assigned an asterisk (*). If Maris had one next to his 61 home run season all those years, Braun's MVP deserves a permanent one in the record books.

[HRBAKER]

My people have seen the goods you have on me and I have been advised that this is my best option.

Meanwhile he will be back next year to enjoy the fruits of his contract that may well be based on results that were in part artificially produced.

[I Only Smoke 4 the Cards]

Teams should try to include clauses in player contracts allowing the contract to be voided if there is a positive test.

[I Only Smoke 4 the Cards]

Originally Posted by HRBAKER

My people have seen the goods you have on me and I have been advised that this is my best option.

Meanwhile he will be back next year to enjoy the fruits of his contract that may well be based on results that were in part artificially produced.

I thought that is an interesting point. Isnt he playing at a higher salary next year? Thus he is better off financially by not contesting the test.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by kmac32

They need to take his MVP award away. Too bad he got off on a technicality before. Cheater and a liar.

+1

[Peter_Spaeth]

Is anyone except Derek Jeter clean?

[AndyG09]

Did the guy who worked for MLB lose his job after the technicality? It will be interesting to see what comes of his career from this point on.

Best,

Andy

[quinnsryche]

I hope they catch and expel every last one of these cheatin' bastards. They guys on MLB made a good point today. They said that from now on anyone caught cheating should be exempt from any award (MVP, Cy Young etc.), all star team or any accolade they may be given in the future. Teams should also be allowed to void any contract if a player is found guilty. I agree 100%. I vote for lifetime banishment after any offense. 1 and done. Get out and stay out. The days of McGwire, Sosa, Bonds, Rodriguez, Braun and all the others are OVER stating right now.

[DixieBaseball]

I wonder if he was cheating back when he played with the Nashville Sounds? Yet another clean player's roster spot has been stolen from them. Glad to see baseball continue to move in the right direction. I would like to not only see a suspension, but also make the player go down to Triple A to spend a year probation. I think this would really curb the cheating. Spending a year back down in the minor's would be very sobering after being in the big's... I don't think taking money away sends the message. Time to ride the bus again for several months might change the thinking...

[drcy]

If Braun's career tanks and the Brewers are on the hook for $100 million, that will work as incentive for the teams, the folks signing the contracts, to prevent players from taking PEDs.

Everyone but the ostriches in Wisconsin said he was probably on PEDs. If the Brewers were still willing to sign him to a $100 million contract, that's their own fault when he gets caught. Maybe next time the Brewers will steer clear of players they know are PED users.

[Jcfowler6]

PED should be awarded the 2011 MVP.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by kmac32

They need to take his MVP award away. Too bad he got off on a technicality before. Cheater and a liar.

I'm very disappointed that Ryan used something he should not have, and whatever the suspension is (65 games, the remainder of the season, iirc), it is completely justified. What Ryan has done is an embarrassment to the game I love, the franchise I have followed since childhood, and it bothers me on a personal level. I hate that he did something against the rules, and that he has lied about it. But, I also hope at some point the truth comes out, because right now, speculation is running rampant. Media outlets are still running stories still filled with a lot of half-truths and conjecture. Things like "Braun has admitted to using PED". Nowhere has he done this. He did not admit to using PED in the statement he issued today. In fact, it was reported several times after the story first broke that he was going to be suspended not for PED, but for a banned substance, which could be one of a hundred different things.

The "his MVP should be taken away" talk is ridiculous. The MVP is a regular season award, and there is no proof whatsoever that Braun used anything before the postseason of 2011. He passed every single drug test while in the minor leagues, and every test administered from 2007 through the 2011 regular season. As for his "getting off on a technicality", no, he didn't. There are carefully established protocols for handling biological specimens used in the drug testing program, and if they are not followed, it is proper to throw that sample out, and not employ any of the testing results in furthering punitive action. Ryan Braun's urine sample was taken home by the collector, and placed in a Tupperware container in his basement for two days when it was clear there were several Fed Ex locations open between the collector's home and Miller Park (including at least one that took shipments 24 hours a day). Dino Laurenzi did not follow procedure. There is no debating this. Once it was determined that proper handling requirements had not been followed, the sample should have been destroyed. Period. Any test results from the sample are in essence fruit from the poisonous tree.

I have felt from the beginning that there was a strong possibility Ryan did not use a performance enhancer, but something that would help heal the calf muscle injury he'd been suffering with for much of the 2011 season's second half. By the letter of the drug policy agreed upon by MLB and the MLBPA, it wouldn't matter, as it's still breaking the rules, but I could at least understand that, if not condone it.

Right now, I am angry, and disappointed. He could, of course, be guilty of everything he's been accused of. But absent the facts (facts like the written opinion of independent arbiter Shyam Sad), we really don't know everything that happened. He might have been cheating all along, or he might have taken something to heal, not expecting to get tested before the post season. Who knows. But this talk of Ryan Braun being a "scum bag" is a little over the top. I am sure every single one of us have done something we wish we could go back and do differently. I know I have. But Braun is not some low life. He did something stupid, for which he should absolutely serve his suspension. But human beings make mistakes, and if he asks for forgiveness, and truly regrets what he did, I for one will forgive him, and cheer for him again. I hope he's learned from his mistake. More than anything, I am glad that this is now over.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by drcy

If Braun's career tanks and the Brewers are on the hook for $100 million, that will work as incentive for the teams, the folks signing the contracts, to prevent players from taking PEDs.

Everyone but the ostriches in Wisconsin said he was probably on PEDs. If the Brewers were still willing to sign him to a $100 million contract, that's their own fault when he gets caught. Maybe next time the Brewers will steer clear of players they know are PED users.

Don't let anything like the facts get in the way of your stupid diatribe.

Ryan Braun signed his extension prior to the 2011 season (April of 2011). His positive urine test came in the postseason of the 2011 season (October 2011), and the story broke in December of 2011. Eight months later.

So, by what stretch of the imagination did the Brewers extend a known PED user?

As for us "ostriches" in Wisconsin, I'm relatively certain that every single Brewers fan, myself included, accepted that there was a very good possibility that Ryan Braun was indeed guilty of what he'd been accused. The difference between us and everybody else, it seems, is that we decided to wait for the facts to come out before assassinating somebody's reputation. A lot of people were ready to take what ESPN was reporting as cold-hard facts, even though their story seemingly changed by the day ("Ryan Braun is being suspended for using PED". "Ryan Braun is being suspended for using a banned substance". "Ryan Braun tested positive for a banned substance being used to treat a STD".) ESPN completely lacks in journalistic integrity, yet people were treating their word as the Bible. Never mind that the appeals process in place for baseball players was supposed to be confidential. ESPN didn't care if they ruined his reputation sans facts. They cared more about their web hits, their television ratings, and their magazine sales.

[HRBAKER]

It may be more than just a passing coincidence that he decided to step forward and acknowledge his mistakes after the good doctor at the clinic began cooperating with MLB.

I've sat where your sitting being a Cardinals fan. Personally I think what McGwire did to the HR record in 1998 is reprehensible in hindsight.

I'm long passed giving any of them the benefit of the doubt, they've proven me gullible too many times.

Edited to add: It would be truly refreshing if you were right.

[glchen]

Originally Posted by AndyG09

Did the guy who worked for MLB lose his job after the technicality? It will be interesting to see what comes of his career from this point on.

Best,

Andy

I thought that the arbitrator who ruled in favor of Braun got fired. Maybe it was both of them. Personally, I don't think we're at the end of the steroid era, more like the middle, since HGH is so hard to catch.

[z28jd]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Is anyone except Derek Jeter clean?

How would you have any idea that Jeter has played clean during his entire career? I wouldn't assume anyone has played clean unless you were with them 100% of the time. Nothing against you Peter, it just bothers me when people say without doubt that certain people were clean and are willing to just believe rumors on other players(Jeff Bagwell for example)

[drumback]

What makes you so sure Jeter is clean?

[kmac32]

Originally Posted by HRBAKER

It may be more than just a passing coincidence that he decided to step forward and acknowledge his mistakes after the good doctor at the clinic began cooperating with MLB.

I've sat where your sitting being a Cardinals fan. Personally I think what McGwire did to the HR record in 1998 is reprehensible in hindsight.

I'm long passed giving any of them the benefit of the doubt, they've proven me gullible too many times.

Edited to add: It would be truly refreshing if you were right.

As a diehard Cub fan, I still believe that you can add Sammy Sosa to the list of PED guys. I personally believe Braun got caught the first time and even though the chain of evidence was broken, he still took a prohibited substance. You can accurately believe that whatever they found in the urine test was what he was taking. It's not rocket science to figure that point out. Even worse, he lied about it. I strongly believe that if he were innocent and did not do anything wrong, he would and should fight the charges tooth and nail. Revoking his MVP title should be a no brainier.

[slidekellyslide]

I think we are nearing the end of the PED era in baseball...the union has finally decided they are no longer going to stand behind the users. I believe the penalties will get stiffer now. It should be test once and you're done for a full year, and the team should have the right to cut you loose without paying the contract. Test twice and you get a lifetime ban...the same ban that Rose got, no association with baseball at all...you want to watch a game, you buy a ticket. No participation in any baseball sanctioned events. Persona non grata.

[itjclarke]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

ESPN completely lacks in journalistic integrity, yet people were treating their word as the Bible. Never mind that the appeals process in place for baseball players was supposed to be confidential. ESPN didn't care if they ruined his reputation sans facts. They cared more about their web hits, their television ratings, and their magazine sales.

Being a Bay Area native (BALCO) and Giants fan, I've engaged in enough steroid talk to last a life time, and feel little need to weigh in on Braun.. except in saying that I had little/no suspicion of his PED use prior to the 2011 test. His swing looked pure, his power seemed body & hip generated, but oh well.

Anyway, I totally agree about ESPN. I grew up watching ESPN, but have grown tired of what they've become. They have little to no integrity, and seem far more interested in getting a story out first, rather than being right.. hey, they can just correct themselves later (sadly this seems the case with most news outlets now). I was also very put off having been told first hand a few years back that a major sports network (ESPN strongly hinted) was offering six figures to someone that had priveledged access to the Mitchell Report. Apparently they eventually got to someone or several people as those names trickled out one by one for weeks... just as grand jury testimony had leaked prior. I'm not saying that ESPN or its reporters had a hand in this dirtiness, but I had season tickets at AT&T park during this period and got so sick of seeing Pedro Gomez and his camara guy wandering around my section like vultures for 2 straight years.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by HRBAKER

It may be more than just a passing coincidence that he decided to step forward and acknowledge his mistakes after the good doctor at the clinic began cooperating with MLB.

I've sat where your sitting being a Cardinals fan. Personally I think what McGwire did to the HR record in 1998 is reprehensible in hindsight.

I'm long passed giving any of them the benefit of the doubt, they've proven me gullible too many times.

While I agree with the spirit of what you're saying, respectfully, I have to say these situations are a little different, Jeff. McGwire was a pretty big guy as a rookie with the A's, but by the time he was hitting his 70 home runs with the Cardinals, he was just huge. In 1987 he was 6'5" 213 lbs. In 1998, he was listed as 6'5" 250 pounds. In 2007, Ryan Braun was 6'1" 202 lbs. In 2012, he was 6'1" 210 pounds. Braun added some muscle, but his body mass didn't bloat up like McGwires. Big Mac added 37 pounds. Also, Ryan Braun, if you look at his numbers, has hit pretty much the same number of home runs every year, save for 2010 when he hurt his hand. As a rookie, he hit 34 home runs in 492 at bats (once every 14.47 at bats). In 2012, he hit 41 home runs in 598 at bats (once every 14.58 at bats). He's been consistent across the board. There haven't been any substantial jumps in his performance that one would associate with taking performance enhancing drugs.

I agree with you that cheating in any form is reprehensible, and I know I'm probably coming off as a homer by not jumping on the "let's hang Ryan Braun as a scum bag" bandwagon. But we haven't heard the real facts of what happened with Braun. His reputation was already shot because of the first suspension + overturn (he clearly got off on a technicality, right? Nevermind that science has shown how improper storage of a specimen can skew results. See Diane Modhal). It's clear that MLB had it out for him (they were willing to give a complete pass to the dirt bags who were dealing drugs in order to "get their guys"), and they were going to suspend him no matter what he did. Isn't it at least possible that Braun said to himself "since I'm suspended no matter what I do, why not take a lesser suspension now. My thumb is still messed up, so I can get healthy. The team is 18 games out of first place, Corey Hart is out for the season, as is Aramis Ramirez pretty much. We can't compete with our three best power hitters out. Better I serve now that the season is lost than fight this, and possibly have to face suspension next year".

We don't know what he took. We don't know if this all relates back to the 2011 suspension, or if this is something new. But it's clear that MLB was on a witch hunt of sorts. No confidentiality whatsoever. They aired their dirty laundry in public for all to see. Hell, when his suspension was overturned by Shyam Das, a well respected arbiter (and somebody who looked at all the evidence for three months beforre making his ruling), MLB fired him. What chance did Ryan Braun have? At what point does a player just throw up his hands after being beaten into submission for nearly two years? I'm not saying he's an angel at all. He did something wrong. But it really appears to me that we're not seeing the whole picture. If he got off on a technicality, why did it take Das so long to reach his decision? One would think that would be an open and shut case, right? Or was there a lot more compelling evidence that we haven't seen? Braun's Brewer teammates have come forward to say "if the public knew the truth, we'd think differently". Aaron Rodgers of the Packers said he'd bet his 2013 salary that he was innocent. Are all these guys dead from the neck up? Or is there something we've not yet seen?

It's possible I'm grasping at straws, and that Ryan has played everybody for a fool for a very long time. But there's something inside me that says we're only getting one half of the story. Ryan hasn't spoken at length before, as he was bound by the confidentiality clause of the arbitration process. Maybe now he can do so.

I don't know, I'm just sick of this whole thing. It's ruined my enjoyment of this season. It's been a dark cloud circling over 2013's head.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by itjclarke

Being a Bay Area native (BALCO) and Giants fan, I've engaged in enough steroid talk to last a life time, and feel little need to weigh in on Braun.. except in saying that I had little/no suspicion of his PED use prior to the 2011 test. His swing looked pure, his power seemed body & hip generated, but oh well.

I agree, and I've been watching Braun closely since he first stepped on the field at Miller Park (in addition to the footage I've seen of him in the minors, and back at Miami). I see a guy that's a career .312 hitter...strong, but lean. He generates incredible bat speed with very fluid mechanics. He's got a really fast twitch, strong legs, and powerful wrists. That allows him to hit with power to all fields.

After the story was leaked, all I seemed to read was "well, Braun is only a great hitter because he has Prince Fielder behind him. Pitchers have to throw to him, so he gets more good pitches to hit". Then he has the best year of his career in 2012 while Prince is in Detroit backing up Miguel Cabrera.

This is why I still don't believe that he took performance enhancers. I know he took something, but I just don't see a guy that's benefiting from juicing up. This isn't a guy hitting 60-70 home runs a season. He's consistent in all aspects of the game. He's pretty much famous in Milwaukee for his work ethic.

There's often more to stories like this, and I think when the other shoe drops, some opinions will change.

[chaddurbin]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

I think we are nearing the end of the PED era in baseball...the union has finally decided they are no longer going to stand behind the users. I believe the penalties will get stiffer now. It should be test once and you're done for a full year, and the team should have the right to cut you loose without paying the contract. Test twice and you get a lifetime ban...the same ban that Rose got, no association with baseball at all...you want to watch a game, you buy a ticket. No participation in any baseball sanctioned events. Persona non grata.

agree with this, should be 1st time out for season...2nd offense means lifetime. imo this will still not deter some latin/central american players who came from nothing and will still risk it for the payday.

sorry i didn't read the walls of text, but of course braun cheated...with PED! he's laying down like a dog because he knows he's at a dead-end and if he fights it any longer the WHOLE truth will come out. interesting to hear from the "insiders" that he's not very well-liked with the players because he's a cheater who got off on a technicality.

[stewbacca]

I don't think we will ever find out what Braun did or took. Part of this apology and acceptance of his 65 game ban was done with attourneys and legal counsel which probably allows him to not admit publicly what exactly he did or took as long as he says "I have made mistakes and will do better". As a West coast Brewers fan since around 1980, there is no way I can defend Braun and his attitude over the past few years about his positive test. He beat the test on a technicality. Then he goes all Lance Armstong on anyone who would try to say differently(news conference about beating the test? I told you I was clean?). Was he taking them before the big contract? Did he take them only for the playoffs? We will never know and Mr Braun will never admit publicly what he did...there is no reason to. He will sit out his 65 games and start collecting his big contract again next season. We are a forgiving society.....even without being asked.

[Iron Horse]

The only way you are going to clean up the sport is to put a clause in their contracts that will allow teams to void their contracts & are suspended for one year the first time you are caught. Your team then will have the right to sign you for 50% of your original contract or release you and you can't sign for any more then 50% of your original contract with any other team as well for 2 years.

[chaddurbin]

mlbpa is too strong, it's not realistic that they're just gonna drop the guaranteed contract clause just to clean up the game. would be a great step forward if that could get done.

if arod's team is smart they'd try to negotiate the same punishment as braun for this year, but i think mlb is pulling out the big hammer for arod. he admitted ped use in '03 (strike 1), link to biogenesis (strike 2), then lying about the association (strike 3!).

[Kenny Cole]

Originally Posted by Iron Horse

The only way you are going to clean up the sport is to put a clause in their contracts that will allow teams to void their contracts & are suspended for one year the first time you are caught. Your team then will have the right to sign you for 50% of your original contract or release you and you can't sign for any more then 50% of your original contract with any other team as well for 2 years.

Poor idea. Do you really think teams care if their stars are using if they are bringing people to the park and not getting caught? I don't. So why should they get the benefit of making money off the cheaters while they haven't tested dirty and then wash their hands of the contract when they do? They are complicit and should have to eat it too IMO.

[the 'stache]

Ok, everybody regurgitating the "Braun got off on a technicality" meme please read this. Enlighten yourselves.

http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/20...nicality-bull/

I think Braun got tired of fighting. MLB accused him once, threatened to suspend him, he fought it tooth and nail, and his defense team proved their client's assertion. The independent arbiter looked at all the scientific evidence, notes from expert testimony...for months, and for the first time ever, overturned MLB's ban. Ok, whew. "Now, I can go on with my life again". Only MLB comes at him again. Threatens to ban him for 100 games, 150 games, or for life...and makes this information public through their little lap dog (ESPN). It became clear that MLB was going to do whatever it took to suspend Braun, even if it meant giving full immunity to the guys that supposedly sold these drugs to all the MLB players. There was no scientific evidence proving guilt, only the word of Anthony Bosch, a man when I see him on television, I feel like I have to take a shower. Oh, and the word of Bosch's employees. Very reliable, I'm sure. Enough to basically force Braun to bow down.

At what point does one just throw up their hands and say "enough is enough"? His reputation was already dragged through the mud. How much more was the guy going to fight?

Don't be so quick to vilify him until the facts come out (if they ever do).

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

Ok, everybody regurgitating the "Braun got off on a technicality" meme please read this. Enlighten yourselves.

http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/20...nicality-bull/

I think Braun got tired of fighting. MLB accused him once, threatened to suspend him, he fought it tooth and nail, and his defense team proved their client's assertion. The independent arbiter looked at all the scientific evidence, notes from expert testimony...for months, and for the first time ever, overturned MLB's ban. Ok, whew. "Now, I can go on with my life again". Only MLB comes at him again. Threatens to ban him for 100 games, 150 games, or for life...and makes this information public through their little lap dog (ESPN). It became clear that MLB was going to do whatever it took to suspend Braun, even if it meant giving full immunity to the guys that supposedly sold these drugs to all the MLB players. There was no scientific evidence proving guilt, only the word of Anthony Bosch, a man when I see him on television, I feel like I have to take a shower. Oh, and the word of Bosch's employees. Very reliable, I'm sure. Enough to basically force Braun to bow down.

At what point does one just throw up their hands and say "enough is enough"? His reputation was already dragged through the mud. How much more was the guy going to fight?

Don't be so quick to vilify him until the facts come out (if they ever do).

Eh...ummmm...you don't really believe that Braun is innocent do you?

[kmac32]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

Ok, everybody regurgitating the "Braun got off on a technicality" meme please read this. Enlighten yourselves.

http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/20...nicality-bull/

I think Braun got tired of fighting. MLB accused him once, threatened to suspend him, he fought it tooth and nail, and his defense team proved their client's assertion. The independent arbiter looked at all the scientific evidence, notes from expert testimony...for months, and for the first time ever, overturned MLB's ban. Ok, whew. "Now, I can go on with my life again". Only MLB comes at him again. Threatens to ban him for 100 games, 150 games, or for life...and makes this information public through their little lap dog (ESPN). It became clear that MLB was going to do whatever it took to suspend Braun, even if it meant giving full immunity to the guys that supposedly sold these drugs to all the MLB players. There was no scientific evidence proving guilt, only the word of Anthony Bosch, a man when I see him on television, I feel like I have to take a shower. Oh, and the word of Bosch's employees. Very reliable, I'm sure. Enough to basically force Braun to bow down.

At what point does one just throw up their hands and say "enough is enough"? His reputation was already dragged through the mud. How much more was the guy going to fight?

Don't be so quick to vilify him until the facts come out (if they ever do).

Maybe they should have DNA tested the sample as additional requirements to prove the sample came from Braun. Human body fluids should have some cells proving who the sample came from. LOL

[stewbacca]

Your defense for Braun really resembles Lance Armstrongs defense. Tired of fighting the rumors, blame and brand Floyd Landis as well as the others as liars and cheats themselves(so they should have no credibility). I would love for him to be clean both for himself and for me as a brewers fan and baseball fan, but the company you keep really tells the story. I appreciate that you are defending him, but if baseball really had nothing on him, do you really think they would suspend him? I think they have many more fact than you and I could imagine. Those were presented to him and his counsel and he got off with only a 65 game suspension. I think he is lucky and he knows it. What if MLB went public with everything they had on him? The lurid facts could ruin him and his career but they give him a way out. Armstrong had so many people fooled(not me), but the extent of his cheating blew my mind. And the drugs didn't make Armstrong bigger, it made him recover faster among other things.

[itjclarke]

Originally Posted by stewbacca

What if MLB went public with everything they had on him? The lurid facts could ruin him and his career but they give him a way out.

I'm guessing the types of reporters I refer to in my earlier post will be offering plenty of $$$$ to see that any privileged information MLB has will eventfully "leak" out.

[alanu]

Originally Posted by I Only Smoke 4 the Cards

I thought that is an interesting point. Isnt he playing at a higher salary next year? Thus he is better off financially by not contesting the test.

The Brewers might be in contention next year too so why not take off the rest of this year when they are already out of it.

[oldjudge]

The best thing that could happen to the Yankees is for ARod to be banned for life, and by extension his bloated contract cancelled. Better still would be if Teixeira and Sabathia were banned for life. Get rid of those has beens and spend the money on some talent.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

Eh...ummmm...you don't really believe that Braun is innocent do you?

No, I definitely think he took a banned substance. I don't think he took a performance enhancing drug. Does that make my stance a little clearer, I hope?

As I said, he did something against the rules, and should absolutely be suspended. The problem I have is that Major League Baseball, which has played fast and loose with the "we're going to ban Braun, A Rod and 20 other players the week after the All Star Game" talk, is curiously hush hush with the details of what exactly he took. I guess in their eyes it's ok to suspend a player no matter what they had to do to get it, but ask for any of the facts germane to the suspension, and "well, that's strictly confidential". It stinks.

If MLB is so interested in cleaning up the sport, why not tell the fans what each suspended individual was guilty of taking? Because I look at Ryan Braun, and I'm not seeing Mark McGwire circa 1998, or Barry Bonds circa 2001. Braun is pretty much the same guy that came into the big leagues in 2007. The same guy that was a star at the University of Miami, and in high school in California. This isn't Melky Cabrera, who went from being a career .275 hitter to a .340 hitting MVP candidate. Ryan Braun was a top 100 amateur prospect per Baseball America. He was First Team All-American in college. So, I guess he started using PEDs in high school?

Or, maybe he didn't take PEDs. Maybe he took something like I'd mentioned earlier, to try and heal an injury that had plagued him all season. Isn't that at least possible?

[alanu]

"If MLB is so interested in cleaning up the sport, why not tell the fans what each suspended individual was guilty of taking?"



I think the reason for not disclosing the specific substance is that the bargaining agreement forbids it, so it's really the players not the league responsible for the non-disclosure of the specific substance.

The players could come out and say what they were suspended for, but they never do.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by stewbacca

Your defense for Braun really resembles Lance Armstrongs defense. Tired of fighting the rumors, blame and brand Floyd Landis as well as the others as liars and cheats themselves(so they should have no credibility). I would love for him to be clean both for himself and for me as a brewers fan and baseball fan, but the company you keep really tells the story. I appreciate that you are defending him, but if baseball really had nothing on him, do you really think they would suspend him? I think they have many more fact than you and I could imagine. Those were presented to him and his counsel and he got off with only a 65 game suspension. I think he is lucky and he knows it. What if MLB went public with everything they had on him? The lurid facts could ruin him and his career but they give him a way out. Armstrong had so many people fooled(not me), but the extent of his cheating blew my mind. And the drugs didn't make Armstrong bigger, it made him recover faster among other things.

If MLB had all of this damning evidence, why the need to give Anthony Bosch and his former employees complete immunity?

Another thing. Lance Armstrong never had a suspension publicly overturned. Braun did. Instead of accepting the results of binding arbitration, MLB threw a hissy fit with their statement they "vehemently disagreed" with the decision. Then they fired the guy that cleared him. Then they decided to go after him again.

Doesn't MLB appear at least slightly overzealous to you? Does it not bother you at all that they gave complete immunity to the guys that were supposedly supplying these Major Leaguers with the drugs?

Where was MLB's "we must clean up the game" outcry while mark McGwire and Sammy Sosa were both smashing Roger Maris's single season home run record? MLB had just come off a strike, yet when these two blow up dolls started mashing homers at a rate previously unseen in the nearly 130 years of baseball history, they blindly turned an eye. "Chicks dig the long ball!". When Barry Bonds, a man that had never hit 50 home runs in a season, suddenly hits 73 at the age of 36, where was their righteous indignation then?

I don't think MLB has this damning evidence you are referring to. I think it's circumstantial. A couple pieces of paper with a bunch of names written in pencil, some dollar figures next to them, and a whole bunch of corroborating "sworn statements" by individuals that would make my skin crawl.

MLB made it clear that they were going to have their way, and would do whatever necessary to achieve their objective. Now, I'm all for cleaning up the sport, but the depths they've sunk to in order to realize their suspensions is very troubling to me. They talk about the "integrity of the game" out of one corner of their mouth, then give life to their draconian tactics out of the other.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by alanu

"If MLB is so interested in cleaning up the sport, why not tell the fans what each suspended individual was guilty of taking?"



I think the reason for not disclosing the specific substance is that the bargaining agreement forbids it, so it's really the players not the league responsible for the non-disclosure of the specific substance.

The players could come out and say what they were suspended for, but they never do.

Well, the bargaining agreement also provides for strict confidentiality, does it not? And we've seen how that's gone. MLB has tried their case in the media, and the players have basically been stifled.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by kmac32

Maybe they should have DNA tested the sample as additional requirements to prove the sample came from Braun. Human body fluids should have some cells proving who the sample came from. LOL

Braun actually offered to provide a DNA sample to compare against the sample. MLB declined.

[David R]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

If MLB had all of this damning evidence, why the need to give Anthony Bosch and his former employees complete immunity?

Another thing. Lance Armstrong never had a suspension publicly overturned. Braun did. Instead of accepting the results of binding arbitration, MLB threw a hissy fit with their statement they "vehemently disagreed" with the decision. Then they fired the guy that cleared him. Then they decided to go after him again.

Doesn't MLB appear at least slightly overzealous to you? Does it not bother you at all that they gave complete immunity to the guys that were supposedly supplying these Major Leaguers with the drugs?

Where was MLB's "we must clean up the game" outcry while mark McGwire and Sammy Sosa were both smashing Roger Maris's single season home run record? MLB had just come off a strike, yet when these two blow up dolls started mashing homers at a rate previously unseen in the nearly 130 years of baseball history, they blindly turned an eye. "Chicks dig the long ball!". When Barry Bonds, a man that had never hit 50 home runs in a season, suddenly hits 73 at the age of 36, where was their righteous indignation then?

I don't think MLB has this damning evidence you are referring to. I think it's circumstantial. A couple pieces of paper with a bunch of names written in pencil, some dollar figures next to them, and a whole bunch of corroborating "sworn statements" by individuals that would make my skin crawl.

MLB made it clear that they were going to have their way, and would do whatever necessary to achieve their objective. Now, I'm all for cleaning up the sport, but the depths they've sunk to in order to realize their suspensions is very troubling to me. They talk about the "integrity of the game" out of one corner of their mouth, then give life to their draconian tactics out of the other.

I think the suggestion that Braun is somehow an innocent victim of a MLB witch hunt and that he was taking something that violated the rules but not a "performance-enhancing drug" is just pure denial.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by David R

I think the suggestion that Braun is somehow an innocent victim of a MLB witch hunt and that he was taking something that violated the rules but not a "performance-enhancing drug" is just pure denial.

David, I never said "innocent". Again, I do think he used something. But MLB is clearly overzealous in their pursuit of Braun. How many times do you see somebody accused of a crime, vindicated, and then tried for the same thing again, by the same people? It doesn't happen in a criminal court system because jeopardy attaches. Now obviously, this is not a court system, but arbitration. But MLB didn't like the verdict they got when Braun appealed, so they decided to basically ignore it, and go after him again.

Remember when this story first broke? The initial article by ESPN was "Ryan Braun to be suspended for PED use". Shortly thereafter, the story changed, that "Braun will be suspended for a banned substance, not a PED". Then the stories started coming out that Braun was taking a medication for herpes. STD medication and PEDs are not even remotely the same thing.

Where is the truth in this? All we know for sure is that Braun was to be suspended for a banned substance, that his testosterone levels were nearly three times higher than any professional athlete had ever tested before, and that he won his appeal by challenging the procedure in which his sample was handled. That doesn't mean his defense team couldn't have gone after the science. They pursued the line of defense that would most likely result in an overturn. It was hardly the only avenue available to them.

Now we know for a fact that Braun will be suspended for the remainder of the 2013 season. That's about all we really know. We don't know definitively what banned substance he took. We don't know what he was presented with by MLB.

I just hope that these "leaks" which served MLB so effectively will start disclosing the facts of the case. Let's see both sides.

[David R]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

David, I never said "innocent". Again, I do think he used something. But MLB is clearly overzealous in their pursuit of Braun. How many times do you see somebody accused of a crime, vindicated, and then tried for the same thing again, by the same people? It doesn't happen in a criminal court system because jeopardy attaches. Now obviously, this is not a court system, but arbitration. But MLB didn't like the verdict they got when Braun appealed, so they decided to basically ignore it, and go after him again.

Remember when this story first broke? The initial article by ESPN was "Ryan Braun to be suspended for PED use". Shortly thereafter, the story changed, that "Braun will be banned for a banned substance, not a PED". Then the stories started coming out that Braun was taking a medication for herpes. STD medication and PEDs are not even remotely the same thing.

Where is the truth in this? All we know for sure is that Braun was to be suspended for a banned substance, that his testosterone levels were nearly three times higher than any professional athlete had ever tested before, and that he won his appeal by challenging the procedure in which his sample was handled. That doesn't mean his defense team couldn't have gone after the science. They pursued the line of defense that would most likely result in an overturn. It was hardly the only avenue available to them.

Now we know for a fact that Braun will be suspended for the remainder of the 2013 season. That's about all we really know. We don't know definitively what banned substance he took. We don't know what he was presented with by MLB.

I just hope that these "leaks" which served MLB so effectively will start disclosing the facts of the case. Let's see both sides.

I would love to see all the facts but Braun wouldn't want that. What I think would be refreshing is if Braun came clean and told the truth instead of insulting our intelligence by denying he ever used PEDs. The sad thing is he has profited handsomely from his artificially pumped up performance even with the suspension.

[midwaylandscaping]

I may be overboard on the cynical here, but I doubt anyone is truly clean. The horses are too far out of the barn so to speak.
I'm also disappointed in the lack of top level leadership in all 4 major sports. Just recently we've been subjected to(and in some cases continue to be) the worst Commissioners ever in the Big 4 sports. Goodell is a joke. Bettman is even worse. Stern and the NBA were exposed during the ref scandal, that seems to be the most rigged pro sport out there. Bud Selig is by far the most incompetent baseball commissioner of my my lifetime, if not all time in the sport. His leadership enabled and cultivated the "PED ERA". Everybody was lovey dovey with McGwire and Sosa. Who was the leader. Selig. Hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil Bud. Now suddenly, that leader is leading the clean up. That's a culture of corruption at the highest level.
I won't pile on Braun. I was told once "don't pitchfork the dead". Which is what Braun's career is, dead. Regardless of whether or not he plays again, it's dead.
He has a major hand in that obviously. But so does Bud. And all of baseball. To a certain degree we all do. But Bud needs to be removed, soon. It's long overdue, no more excuses.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by David R

I would love to see all the facts but Braun wouldn't want that. What I think would be refreshing is if Braun came clean and told the truth instead of insulting our intelligence by denying he ever used PEDs. The sad thing is he has profited handsomely from his artificially pumped up performance even with the suspension.

Again, you're making an assumption that he used PEDs, that his numbers were the result of using drugs. He was one of the best high school baseball players in America, and All American at Miami, and a star in the minors. So, when did he start using?

I posted this on another forum. Miguel Cabrera is widely considered the best hitter in baseball. But compare his numbers to those of Ryan Brauns. Keep in mind Cabrera is in his 11th season, and Braun his 7th:

Cabrera per 162 games: 104 runs, 195 hits, 41 doubles, 1 triple, 35 HR, 123 RBI, 4 SB, .321 AVG/.398 OBP/.568 SLG/.966 OPS
Braun per 162 games: 111 runs, 198 hits, 41 doubles, 5 triples, 36 HR, 117 RBI, 22 SB, .312 AVG/.374 OBP/.564 SLG/.938 OPS

Does Ryan Braun look like a guy to you that needs steroids? Have you ever watched him hit? He's got one of the most beautiful swings I've ever seen. He generates incredible bat speed with pretty much perfect swing mechanics. Great twitch. A lot of power from his legs. Steroids don't make somebody a lifetime .312 hitter.

Braun set a MLB record for highest rookie slugging pct. Was he using steroids in 2007? How did he pass all those tests in the minors, and his first five seasons then? Either baseball's testing is not all it's cracked up to be, or it was the first time Braun used a banned substance, and he got caught. After he won his appeal, don't you think that Braun was being tested as much as MLB could get away with it? With all that pressure, with all that additional testing, with fans from other cities booing him, he had an even better year than he did when he won the MVP.

Hmm.

[glchen]

Bill, I realize you're a Brewer fan, but I think you gotta realize sooner or later that Braun is guilty of PEDs, and the performance kind, not some kind of technicality. His body build is the same as A-Rod, and A-Rod has admitted to using in the past. Similarly A-Rod was one of the best players in high school, etc. The thing is, beautiful stroke, past history means nothing. There are a tons of misses in baseball because just because you could hit in high school or minor league doesn't mean anything in the majors. Steroids can make someone a lifetime .312 hitter, that's why it's called "performance-enhancing." This guy is a joke. I lump him and A-Rod in the same bucket.

[Exhibitman]

Best reaction ever to Braun's suspension, Miami Marlins' Logan Morrison:

"You know we're clean. We haven't scored a run in 37 innings."

[ScottFandango]

Originally Posted by itjclarke

Being a Bay Area native (BALCO) and Giants fan, I've engaged in enough steroid talk to last a life time, and feel little need to weigh in on Braun.. except in saying that I had little/no suspicion of his PED use prior to the 2011 test. His swing looked pure, his power seemed body & hip generated, but oh well.

Anyway, I totally agree about ESPN. I grew up watching ESPN, but have grown tired of what they've become. They have little to no integrity, and seem far more interested in getting a story out first, rather than being right.. hey, they can just correct themselves later (sadly this seems the case with most news outlets now). I was also very put off having been told first hand a few years back that a major sports network (ESPN strongly hinted) was offering six figures to someone that had priveledged access to the Mitchell Report. Apparently they eventually got to someone or several people as those names trickled out one by one for weeks... just as grand jury testimony had leaked prior. I'm not saying that ESPN or its reporters had a hand in this dirtiness, but I had season tickets at AT&T park during this period and got so sick of seeing Pedro Gomez and his camara guy wandering around my section like vultures for 2 straight years.

I posted this years ago, I thought he was surely on something by the LOOK OF HIS EYES....he has that drug induced "pinned open eyes " where his entire iris was visible...looked like he had a "shocked" look on his face all the time...this is not a normal look and I thought he was on speed/uppers but it was way more than that