Talk about an amazing ROI

[jimjim]

I received a reply from someone at Huggins and Scott that said they would look into it and take appropriate actions. I hope they reply to this thread to give an update, because actions speak louder than words.

It takes a lot more time and effort to do the right thing and refund the buyer the $3K and destroy this item then to just let a forged autograph enter the marketplace. If they don't do anything, I think somebody should contact a news outlet...

[chaddurbin]

Originally Posted by jimjim

I received a reply from someone at Huggins and Scott that said they would look into it and take appropriate actions. I hope they reply to this thread to give an update, because actions speak louder than words.

It takes a lot more time and effort to do the right thing and refund the buyer the $3K and destroy this item then to just let a forged autograph enter the marketplace. If they don't do anything, I think somebody should contact a news outlet...

don't worry, haulsofshame is ready with the breaking news noise i'm sure.

[shelly]

Why should a news outlet be told? This is what you are supposed to do. If they don't do it. Then you tell the news. This should have been taken care of the minute they heard of it.
"We are looking in to it ". What a bunch of crap. What do they need to look into a crystal ball.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by shelly

If they don't do it. Then you tell the news.

That's what he said.

This Waner is just another example of the state of this hobby - we rely on TPA's to do our thinking for us, assuming they have more skills than we do. First of all, they don't have the incentive we have to get it right - they can screw up and it's no big deal - very few repercussions, if any. Second, in many cases they actually do NOT have the skills that the prospective purchaser has - too many times we've seen examples of someone buying a forgery with a COA, then coming on this forum with it, already realizing that he's bought a forgery - you need to come to that realization before you buy the thing.

Enough people are still buying the COA rather than the autograph, to make it a profitable business to rush through authentications, attaching COA's to pure crap.

At some point I would like to see one of the respected auction houses like H&S say, "We are dropping xxxx - the quality of their authentication service does not fit well with the high quality product we are committed to delivering."

[shelly]

It will never happen. To many people have there money invested on the word of the big boys. If they get droped what do you think it would do to all the inventory that is out there. 1929

[Runscott]

I don't think TPA's will ever go away, and I regrettably feel that the quality of their work will remain at it's current low standard; however, I wouldn't be surprised if all the negative publicity regarding TPAs will someday result in some of the major AH's splitting from them. I think the first one to do it would immediately gain a lot of respect in the hobby. If enough of them did it, it might force the TPAs to re-think the quality of the work they provide.

[travrosty]

it's the system in use right now and the tpa's are suppose to be impartial third party. I don't think we will see any of them dropped, the system is too lucrative right now, the customer demands it or so we think. There is an auction house owner as a member of psa, and that auciton house employs PSA services, so how does that work?

[ibuysportsephemera]

Things won't change because the general public sees or hears the words COA (it doesn't matter who issued it) and they think that it makes the item authentic.

[travrosty]

The sad part about it is that there is a two party system abc, and xyz co. issuing certs for the auction houses and anybody else basically gets shut out no matter how good they are.

[mighty bombjack]

Originally Posted by Runscott

That's what he said.

This Waner is just another example of the state of this hobby - we rely on TPA's to do our thinking for us, assuming they have more skills than we do. First of all, they don't have the incentive we have to get it right - they can screw up and it's no big deal - very few repercussions, if any. Second, in many cases they actually do NOT have the skills that the prospective purchaser has - too many times we've seen examples of someone buying a forgery with a COA, then coming on this forum with it, already realizing that he's bought a forgery - you need to come to that realization before you buy the thing.

Enough people are still buying the COA rather than the autograph, to make it a profitable business to rush through authentications, attaching COA's to pure crap.

At some point I would like to see one of the respected auction houses like H&S say, "We are dropping xxxx - the quality of their authentication service does not fit well with the high quality product we are committed to delivering."

Good post. I'm not sure if it is yet worth it to an auction house to do this.

[shelly]

The big two get the prices. The other guys who are far and above them get crap. I know that even if Jim, Richard and others say it is good they still will send it to you know who. So the can sell it for a higner price.That is what is really sad.

[Leon]

I sold technology, hardware- software and services for over 20 yrs until last year. Ten or so years ago Dell always commanded a premium. Why? They didn't even build their computers and barely designed them. The answer- marketing. That is why, many times, things command a higher price when they are inferior or the same quality as other things in the same category.

[mighty bombjack]

Originally Posted by Leon

I sold technology, hardware- software and services for over 20 yrs until last year. Ten or so years ago Dell always commanded a premium. Why? They didn't even build their computers and barely designed them. The answer- marketing. That is why, many times, things command a higher price when they are inferior or the same quality as other things in the same category.

Yes! This is a service just like any other. If you find a TPA's service to be substandard, don't use them.

[mighty bombjack]

Originally Posted by shelly

The big two get the prices. The other guys who are far and above them get crap. I know that even if Jim, Richard and others say it is good they still will send it to you know who. So the can sell it for a higner price.That is what is really sad.

Do these guys issue third-party TPAs?

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by mighty bombjack

Do these guys issue third-party TPAs?

They get to maintain their integrity and deal with knowledgeable buyers, but there is certainly a cost to them. I'm sure they can live with it.

[mighty bombjack]

Originally Posted by Runscott

They get to maintain their integrity and deal with knowledgeable buyers, but there is certainly a cost to them. I'm sure they can live with it.

I'm sure they can too and I'm not calling on anyone to do anything. But if someone comes on here and asks for opinions, gets a thumbs up from a respected member, what should they do when/if they want to sell, especially when a TPA has proven to raise the selling price? One thing that TPAs provide is a transferable opinion, even if that opinion is sometimes wrong. (See also numerical card grading for the same thing).

I am all for peace of mind for collectors, and there are many great ways to get this outside of lazily paying a TPA. But many posts, like the one I quoted, don't take all perspectives into view.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by mighty bombjack

I'm sure they can too and I'm not calling on anyone to do anything. But if someone comes on here and asks for opinions, gets a thumbs up from a respected member, what should they do when/if they want to sell, especially when a TPA has proven to raise the selling price? One thing that TPAs provide is a transferable opinion, even if that opinion is sometimes wrong. (See also numerical card grading for the same thing).

I am all for peace of mind for collectors, and there are many great ways to get this outside of lazily paying a TPA. But many posts, like the one I quoted, don't take all perspectives into view.

I was only answering the question as to why the TPA's get the money they do, it's because of marketing, imo.

[shelly]

Originally Posted by mighty bombjack

Do these guys issue third-party TPAs?

Yes

[mighty bombjack]

Originally Posted by Leon

I was only answering the question as to why the TPA's get the money they do, it's because of marketing, imo.

I was refering to my quoting of shelly, not of you. You and I are in total agreement about this as marketing of a service. I think that many around here are very emotional about this hobby (which is generally a good thing and why we are here), which occasionally leads them to attach a greater importance to things than is rationally due.

The fact is that the alphabets render a service that people want, which is a transferable and marketable third party opinion.

[mighty bombjack]

Originally Posted by shelly

Yes

Really? I honestly didn't know that, which surprises me as a longtime collector of high end autos. Do you have a scan or photo of such an authentication?

[cubsfan-budman]

Originally Posted by mighty bombjack

Really? I honestly didn't know that, which surprises me as a longtime collector of high end autos. Do you have a scan or photo of such an authentication?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/JAMES-BUSTER...item19d114f1f1

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Stunning-Bab...-/300863191480

[mighty bombjack]

Originally Posted by cubsfan-budman

http://www.ebay.com/itm/JAMES-BUSTER...item19d114f1f1

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Stunning-Bab...-/300863191480

Wow, nice. Thanks for the links. The second one is clearly a TPA letter. The first one appears to be a witnessed signing? Not the same thing, but interesting nonetheless.

[cubsfan-budman]

its just what came up when i googled "jim stinson coa" and "richard simon coa"

[JimStinson]

In answer to the above regarding my COA, My bill of sale IS a COA on everything I sell as its sold with a lifetime guarantee of authenticity. I used to issue formal COA's on all of the private signings I did back in the 1980's and 1990's only to document and prove the fact that the item/items were signed in person.

When I buy collections I NEVER ask for COA's but many times I ask the seller to reference a bill of sale to find out initial origin.

I've never offered a formal authentication service because well ....there are only 24 hours in a day and I stay pretty busy as it is AND I never felt comfortable charging money for an OPINION which in most cases is no more difficult to do than telling you what time it is if I had a wristwatch and you didn't.

But in the course of redesigning my new web site which is still being worked on I was encouraged to offer a quick opinion link which I'll be incorporating into the site soon. Since I'll be working from scans its not designed to be the last word and won't be able identify photo copies or laser copies but I think where collectors might find it helpful is in weighing a Jim Stinson quick opinion PRIOR to a purchase. And avoid having to chase the seller after the fact or better still if certain TPA's of your choice are part of your collecting format it will help save money in that it will eliminate having to pay top dollar for an item that is going to come back as fake or secretarial anyway.

More on this later regarding specifics when all systems are go. In the meantime questions and suggestions are welcome.
_____________________
jim@stinsonsports.com
web site
stinsonsports.com

[1880nonsports]

I don't know you at all but I like the way you think. Wristwatch quote pretty good too..............

[Runscott]

Wayne, I didn't really understand the post where you quoted me - I sincerely hope you don't think I was questioning what you said. I actually agree with everything you've stated, and was just adding to it when I said that the "Non Big 2" could live with the results that their integrity has 'cost' them (although I don't really think it has cost them much).

I completely agree that the 2 largest TPA's exist in their less-than-desirable form due to marketing (and I would add customer 'greed' in some cases) and the fact that they provide a service that a lot of people believe is accurate, but that is desirable to some, even if it is not accurate.

I would not compare them to card-grading. They aren't grading the items, they are authenticating them. There is a huge difference. Card authentication should really be close to 100% success rate, while grades are somewhat subjective. Autograph authenticity should not be subjective. If a TPA 'thinks' an autograph is 'probably' authentic, but their certainty is less than say 99%, then their COA should say so. For instance, the ones that we have stated here are definitely bad (like the Sonny Liston Travis recently posted) - there is no way in hell that the TPA could have been even 50% certain on that one. They should say as much in their COA. For instance: "autograph exhibits characteristics consistent with known exemplars, but appears to be signed rather than drawn, and Liston is known to have drawn rather than signed."

Call me emotional, but if I'm collecting something and have a lot of money tied up in it, and key players in my hobby are demonstrating the level of professional skill demonstrated by JSA and PSA/DNA, then you are damned right I am going to be emotional. They either need to clean up their act or go work at McDonalds.

Edited to change 'Louis' to 'Liston' - my bad

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by 1880nonsports

I don't know you at all but I like the way you think. Wristwatch quote pretty good too..............

Jim is a professional in the truest sense of the word, as opposed to someone who is paid to do something that they are not qualified to do.

[mighty bombjack]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Wayne, I didn't really understand the post where you quoted me - I sincerely hope you don't think I was questioning what you said. I actually agree with everything you've stated, and was just adding to it when I said that the "Non Big 2" could live with the results that their integrity has 'cost' them (although I don't really think it has cost them much).

I completely agree that the 2 largest TPA's exist in their less-than-desirable form due to marketing (and I would add customer 'greed' in some cases) and the fact that they provide a service that a lot of people believe is accurate, but that is desirable to some, even if it is not accurate.

I would not compare them to card-grading. They aren't grading the items, they are authenticating them. There is a huge difference. Card authentication should really be close to 100% success rate, while grades are somewhat subjective. Autograph authenticity should not be subjective. If a TPA 'thinks' an autograph is 'probably' authentic, but their certainty is less than say 99%, then their COA should say so. For instance, the ones that we have stated here are definitely bad (like the Joe Louis Travis recently posted) - there is no way in hell that the TPA could have been even 50% certain on that one. They should say as much in their COA. For instance: "autograph exhibits characteristics consistent with known exemplars, but appears to be signed rather than drawn, and Louis is known to have drawn rather than signed."

Call me emotional, but if I'm collecting something and have a lot of money tied up in it, and key players in my hobby are demonstrating the level of professional skill demonstrated by JSA and PSA/DNA, then you are damned right I am going to be emotional. They either need to clean up their act or go work at McDonalds.

It's all good. My quoting of you contained responses pointed at others as well.

I only compare authenticators to graders in the sense that they provide a service that is marketable, meaning that in an massive marketplace like the Internet, they serve as a (ostensibly) disinterested third party to give opinions about merchandise, and these opinions stay with the item even as it changes ownership multiple times. That's all.

I also think that emotion is good, but the seemingly rising tide of incompetence displayed by these TPAs just really doesn't bother me that much. I don't send stuff to them. I won't buy anything with their sticker affixed, and I'm ready to trash certs or crack slabs if they fall away a la GAI. Short of that, I don't get all fired up about it. To some that apparently makes me a "supporter."

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by mighty bombjack

I don't send stuff to them. I won't buy anything with their sticker affixed, and I'm ready to trash certs or crack slabs if they fall away a la GAI. Short of that, I don't get all fired up about it. To some that apparently makes me a "supporter."

Nothing about what you wrote makes you look like a "supporter".

As a collector, I can't imagine sending anything to a TPA. If it wasn't real, I wouldn't have bought it in the first place.

[JimStinson]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Nothing about what you wrote makes you look like a "supporter".

As a collector, I can't imagine sending anything to a TPA. If it wasn't real, I wouldn't have bought it in the first place.

Hey Guys Take it easy ! I have a parakeet and nothing fits the bottom of her cage better than a notarized COA
_______________________
jim@stinsonsports.com
web site
stinsonsports.com

[Runscott]

When you think about it, TPA's make perfect sense. If I want to buy an autograph, wouldn't it be a great idea if I could simply look for one that has been authenticated by an expert? Then I can buy with confidence, certain that I have something that is authentic.

The irony is that if I wanted to buy an autograph that I was certain was authentic, the LAST thing I would do would be to rely on a TPA. There are a lot of good options, but TPA's aren't even on the list.

Sad.

[markf31]

Originally Posted by Runscott

When you think about it, TPA's make perfect sense. If I want to buy an autograph, wouldn't it be a great idea if I could simply look for one that has been authenticated by an expert? Then I can buy with confidence, certain that I have something that is authentic.

The irony is that if I wanted to buy an autograph that I was certain was authentic, the LAST thing I would do would be to rely on a TPA. There are a lot of good options, but TPA's aren't even on the list.

Sad.

Agreed. And perhaps the most frustrating aspect of it is how many collectors and buyers are simply unaware and are having the wool pulled over their eyes.

I've often wondered how much the fact that PSA is a publicly traded company effects their decisions in regards to them being upfront, honest and forthcoming in their admission (well really their lack thereof) of problems, issues and mistakes. What would happen if the shareholders were to become as aware of the inherent problems with PSA as many of us here are?

[shelly]

When you say a lie over and over and over again you begin to belive what you are hearing. That is the what the tpa's have done to the public. Us or you cant sell it becuae no one will think it is authentict. Us or you won't get top dollar

[RichardSimon]

Mr Jim Stinson and myself do very well without any alphabets tagging along with our autographs. Without any plastic tombs or stickers or formal looking notarized pieces of paper.

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by markf31

Agreed. And perhaps the most frustrating aspect of it is how many collectors and buyers are simply unaware and are having the wool pulled over their eyes.

I've often wondered how much the fact that PSA is a publicly traded company effects their decisions in regards to them being upfront, honest and forthcoming in their admission (well really their lack thereof) of problems, issues and mistakes. What would happen if the shareholders were to become as aware of the inherent problems with PSA as many of us here are?

The shareholders care about the bottom line. If the company has decided the bottom line is maximized by doing what they are doing and have convinced the shareholders of such, the shareholders won't care about anything else.

The president of the company is a lawyer.