Talk about an amazing ROI

[Runscott]

Wayne, I didn't really understand the post where you quoted me - I sincerely hope you don't think I was questioning what you said. I actually agree with everything you've stated, and was just adding to it when I said that the "Non Big 2" could live with the results that their integrity has 'cost' them (although I don't really think it has cost them much).

I completely agree that the 2 largest TPA's exist in their less-than-desirable form due to marketing (and I would add customer 'greed' in some cases) and the fact that they provide a service that a lot of people believe is accurate, but that is desirable to some, even if it is not accurate.

I would not compare them to card-grading. They aren't grading the items, they are authenticating them. There is a huge difference. Card authentication should really be close to 100% success rate, while grades are somewhat subjective. Autograph authenticity should not be subjective. If a TPA 'thinks' an autograph is 'probably' authentic, but their certainty is less than say 99%, then their COA should say so. For instance, the ones that we have stated here are definitely bad (like the Sonny Liston Travis recently posted) - there is no way in hell that the TPA could have been even 50% certain on that one. They should say as much in their COA. For instance: "autograph exhibits characteristics consistent with known exemplars, but appears to be signed rather than drawn, and Liston is known to have drawn rather than signed."

Call me emotional, but if I'm collecting something and have a lot of money tied up in it, and key players in my hobby are demonstrating the level of professional skill demonstrated by JSA and PSA/DNA, then you are damned right I am going to be emotional. They either need to clean up their act or go work at McDonalds.

Edited to change 'Louis' to 'Liston' - my bad

[mighty bombjack]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Wayne, I didn't really understand the post where you quoted me - I sincerely hope you don't think I was questioning what you said. I actually agree with everything you've stated, and was just adding to it when I said that the "Non Big 2" could live with the results that their integrity has 'cost' them (although I don't really think it has cost them much).

I completely agree that the 2 largest TPA's exist in their less-than-desirable form due to marketing (and I would add customer 'greed' in some cases) and the fact that they provide a service that a lot of people believe is accurate, but that is desirable to some, even if it is not accurate.

I would not compare them to card-grading. They aren't grading the items, they are authenticating them. There is a huge difference. Card authentication should really be close to 100% success rate, while grades are somewhat subjective. Autograph authenticity should not be subjective. If a TPA 'thinks' an autograph is 'probably' authentic, but their certainty is less than say 99%, then their COA should say so. For instance, the ones that we have stated here are definitely bad (like the Joe Louis Travis recently posted) - there is no way in hell that the TPA could have been even 50% certain on that one. They should say as much in their COA. For instance: "autograph exhibits characteristics consistent with known exemplars, but appears to be signed rather than drawn, and Louis is known to have drawn rather than signed."

Call me emotional, but if I'm collecting something and have a lot of money tied up in it, and key players in my hobby are demonstrating the level of professional skill demonstrated by JSA and PSA/DNA, then you are damned right I am going to be emotional. They either need to clean up their act or go work at McDonalds.

It's all good. My quoting of you contained responses pointed at others as well.

I only compare authenticators to graders in the sense that they provide a service that is marketable, meaning that in an massive marketplace like the Internet, they serve as a (ostensibly) disinterested third party to give opinions about merchandise, and these opinions stay with the item even as it changes ownership multiple times. That's all.

I also think that emotion is good, but the seemingly rising tide of incompetence displayed by these TPAs just really doesn't bother me that much. I don't send stuff to them. I won't buy anything with their sticker affixed, and I'm ready to trash certs or crack slabs if they fall away a la GAI. Short of that, I don't get all fired up about it. To some that apparently makes me a "supporter."

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by mighty bombjack

I don't send stuff to them. I won't buy anything with their sticker affixed, and I'm ready to trash certs or crack slabs if they fall away a la GAI. Short of that, I don't get all fired up about it. To some that apparently makes me a "supporter."

Nothing about what you wrote makes you look like a "supporter".

As a collector, I can't imagine sending anything to a TPA. If it wasn't real, I wouldn't have bought it in the first place.

[JimStinson]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Nothing about what you wrote makes you look like a "supporter".

As a collector, I can't imagine sending anything to a TPA. If it wasn't real, I wouldn't have bought it in the first place.

Hey Guys Take it easy ! I have a parakeet and nothing fits the bottom of her cage better than a notarized COA
_______________________
jim@stinsonsports.com
web site
stinsonsports.com

[Runscott]

When you think about it, TPA's make perfect sense. If I want to buy an autograph, wouldn't it be a great idea if I could simply look for one that has been authenticated by an expert? Then I can buy with confidence, certain that I have something that is authentic.

The irony is that if I wanted to buy an autograph that I was certain was authentic, the LAST thing I would do would be to rely on a TPA. There are a lot of good options, but TPA's aren't even on the list.

Sad.

[markf31]

Originally Posted by Runscott

When you think about it, TPA's make perfect sense. If I want to buy an autograph, wouldn't it be a great idea if I could simply look for one that has been authenticated by an expert? Then I can buy with confidence, certain that I have something that is authentic.

The irony is that if I wanted to buy an autograph that I was certain was authentic, the LAST thing I would do would be to rely on a TPA. There are a lot of good options, but TPA's aren't even on the list.

Sad.

Agreed. And perhaps the most frustrating aspect of it is how many collectors and buyers are simply unaware and are having the wool pulled over their eyes.

I've often wondered how much the fact that PSA is a publicly traded company effects their decisions in regards to them being upfront, honest and forthcoming in their admission (well really their lack thereof) of problems, issues and mistakes. What would happen if the shareholders were to become as aware of the inherent problems with PSA as many of us here are?

[shelly]

When you say a lie over and over and over again you begin to belive what you are hearing. That is the what the tpa's have done to the public. Us or you cant sell it becuae no one will think it is authentict. Us or you won't get top dollar

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by markf31

Agreed. And perhaps the most frustrating aspect of it is how many collectors and buyers are simply unaware and are having the wool pulled over their eyes.

I've often wondered how much the fact that PSA is a publicly traded company effects their decisions in regards to them being upfront, honest and forthcoming in their admission (well really their lack thereof) of problems, issues and mistakes. What would happen if the shareholders were to become as aware of the inherent problems with PSA as many of us here are?

The shareholders care about the bottom line. If the company has decided the bottom line is maximized by doing what they are doing and have convinced the shareholders of such, the shareholders won't care about anything else.

The president of the company is a lawyer.