Babe Ruth?

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by jgmp123

Wasn't there a guy named Rick Behar running a crap shop out of Michigan a while back...Colossal Auction Company....I assume no, but any connections?

Not that I am aware of.

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

Yeah, announce a guys name, when I have no physical proof now of his guilt because his questionable material was returned to him by the dealer who he was trying to sell to. (it was not in my possession).
I called someone a crook, in writing, in the distant past, and what happened? I got sued for my troubles. Why don't you guarantee my legal fees Dan, in case I get sued, and then I will be happy to reveal the name.
Announce his tell so he can correct it, sure thing.
When a certain Philadelphia store owner was on here a while back, we had all kinds of information and many examples in his ebay store of his questionable activities. That was no problem to speak out, for most of us, when we were discussing him. Leon even made a mockery of his attorney.
And as far as I know, the guy in Michigan does not sell retail, so the board members have nothing to fear, he sends stuff to dealers and to auction houses.

So, how about PMing me his name, and PMing me his tell.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

So, how about PMing me his name, and PMing me his tell.

I got sued for sending out one e mail calling a guy a crook. One e mail was all it took, and I had to spend five figures to have the case dismissed. Even when you win you lose.
I would not send you a PM with the name of this guy or the tell.
If you are that concerned, if you ever get anything offered to you by a stranger from Michigan you can PM me his name and I will tell you if it is him, and PM me the next Babe Ruth you want to buy and I will tell you if the tell is in it.

[travrosty]

what an entire waste of a thread this has been.

[shelly]

Oh my God. Travis are you really serious or you just being who you are.

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

I got sued for sending out one e mail calling a guy a crook. One e mail was all it took, and I had to spend five figures to have the case dismissed. Even when you win you lose.
I would not send you a PM with the name of this guy or the tell.
If you are that concerned, if you ever get anything offered to you by a stranger from Michigan you can PM me his name and I will tell you if it is him, and PM me the next Babe Ruth you want to buy and I will tell you if the tell is in it.

Fair enough. I guess the crooks are basically untouchables in the autograph hobby.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by travrosty

what an entire waste of a thread this has been.

I have been quite entertained by it, and learned a lot. Plus, we had both the auction house and the consignor participate, as well as several of the more-respected autograph guys.

You just can't look at it like a 3 hour movie that says 'to be continued' at the end, and then the producer runs out of money.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

Fair enough. I guess the crooks are basically untouchables in the autograph hobby.

Well Dan, if you can work with law enforcement to get this guy, I will happily give you his name.
Unfortunately the attempts to get him have so far not succeeded, but I hope some future attempt will nail him.
And you are right about one thing, the crooks MOSTLY are untouchable but some have paid a price.

[Forever Young]

Originally Posted by Runscott

I have been quite entertained by it, and learned a lot. Plus, we had both the auction house and the consignor participate, as well as several of the more-respected autograph guys.

+1
= 2 from me to you....this thread rules.

[chaddurbin]

i thoroughly enjoy and am fascinated by this thread, no snark or sarcasm.

this thread is a microcosm of the autograph side, and the hobby in general. different viewpoints and opinions colliding, if you don't have the stomach or faith for it then go collect t206.

[David Atkatz]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

I got sued for sending out one e mail calling a guy a crook. One e mail was all it took, and I had to spend five figures to have the case dismissed. Even when you win you lose.
I would not send you a PM with the name of this guy or the tell.

Why not the tell? You can't be sued for that.

(And, BTW, I call BS on your story. Libel is almost impossible to prove even if you had written a scathing newspaper article, or a book. One email? Please.

Good excuse, though.)

[David Atkatz]

Originally Posted by jgmp123

I did just happen to notice that PSA is advertising the card and the H&S auction on their site...

http://www.psacard.com/Articles/Arti...-ends-april-11

Why shouldn't they? The ticket is good.

[travrosty]

nothing got accomplished except for the originator trying to toot his own horn and when asked what makes him an expert at vintage baseball, then he gets lockjaw. along with the "i am so smart i wont tell you why i think something is bad"

totally worthless from beginning to end. that is why authentication of autographs is at an all time low. we need transparency, not secrecy. psa and jsa are bad enough, hobbyists don't need to take a page out of their playbook.

if the ruth is bad, prove it.

[Runscott]

Yeah Travis, but if some of us think we had fun, isn't that a good thing, even if we've deluded ourselves?

Okay, at this point I'm smiling, so it's a good time to say goodbye to the computer for the day. Hope everyone else shuts theirs down at some point, on a similar note.

[jgmp123]

Originally Posted by David Atkatz

Why shouldn't they? The ticket is good.

David,

Just referring back to the "card was sent to Heritage and rejected by PSA" theory..

[chaddurbin]

huggins is probably an advertiser on psa. that's just a press release that psa put up for huggins.

[rscheck]

Originally Posted by jgmp123

David,

Just referring back to the "card was sent to Heritage and rejected by PSA" theory..

But the ticket wasn't sent to Heritage. Only a photo of it and I have an email from Ron offering to send me a packet after he had the photos for 3 days. As for psa they have not seen the ticket live (cant speak to if they saw a photo of it)

[David Atkatz]

Originally Posted by jgmp123

David,

Just referring back to the "card was sent to Heritage and rejected by PSA" theory..

That wasn't a "theory," James. That's what the OP told us.

A bit of legwork gone wrong, perhaps.

[shelly]

Rscheck, I have one question. Did you at any time offer this item to anyone outside of the auction houses?

[rscheck]

Originally Posted by shelly

Rscheck, I have one question. Did you at any time offer this item to anyone outside of the auction houses?

I did. One other guy based on the same photos I sent Ron and Josh. He made an offer on the ticket but I thought it was low. The whole thing involved a couple of emails in the beginning of January....thats when I settled on H&S

[David Atkatz]

Rscheck... you don't have to answer any questions. No one has presented a shred of evidence supporting the OP's claim that the ticket is a forgery. Nada.

And, after repeated questioning, the two "experts" who don't like your ticket (especially the pompous twit who started this whole thing) absolutely refuse to provide any.

As I said before, good luck with your auction.

[rscheck]

Originally Posted by David Atkatz

Rscheck... you don't have to answer any questions. No one has presented a shred of evidence supporting the OP's claim that the ticket is a forgery. Nada.

And, after repeated questioning, the two "experts" who don't like your ticket (especially the pompous twit who started this whole thing) absolutely refuse to provide any.

As I said before, good luck with your auction.

Thanks David. Interesting group of "friends" you have here

[shelly]

Originally Posted by rscheck

Thanks David. Interesting group of "friends" you have here

Interesting people. I asked a simple question like seven other people did. Yes or no would be easy. You came on here and said you would answere questions.

[David Atkatz]

Why don't you ask your buddies to answer some questions, Shel?

Oh, yeah, you did. (When you said you were waiting for those you respect to speak up.)

Too bad they're not as forthcoming as the consignor.

[rscheck]

Originally Posted by shelly

Interesting people. I asked a simple question like seven other people did. Yes or no would be easy. You came on here and said you would answere questions.

Not you Shelly some of the others. Seems guys have taken a hobby that we used to love growing up and totally bastardized it. I will answer questions because I have nothing to hide. The story I have told is true,

[shelly]

Originally Posted by rscheck

Not you Shelly some of the others. Seems guys have taken a hobby that we used to love growing up and totally bastardized it. I will answer questions because I have nothing to hide. The story I have told is true,

I was just curious if it was ever offered outside of the auction houses. Thats it and thanks for the kind remark.

[rscheck]

Originally Posted by shelly

Interesting people. I asked a simple question like seven other people did. Yes or no would be easy. You came on here and said you would answere questions.

BTW what 7 people asked me anything? I offered to speak to Chris and he left me one message, no return phone number, I PM him told him when I was available and never heard back.....sorry shelly but I am an open book

[shelly]

I never said you where not. I just asked a queston nothing more. I understand you never had to come on here and I give you credit. If you do not want to answere ok with me. Its that simple.

[yanks12025]

Just curious if you remember the lady's name?

[David Atkatz]

Originally Posted by rscheck

BTW what 7 people asked me anything? I offered to speak to Chris and he left me one message, no return phone number, I PM him told him when I was available and never heard back.....sorry shelly but I am an open book

I'm sure you've realized it by now... Chris is an ass.

[rscheck]

Originally Posted by yanks12025

Just curious if you remember the lady's name?

Honestly I dont. It was 1992 I realize that would make it easier but I dont

[JT]

I must say, this guy Chris is going to look like a big fool if he doesn't produce something factual and provable that substantiates his allegations.

[David Atkatz]

Originally Posted by JT

I must say, this guy Chris is going to look like a big fool if he doesn't produce something factual and provable that substantiates his allegations.

Going to?

[JT]

David,

I know he hasn't produced one iota of anything to back up his allegation. I am sure he is doing "legwork" deep into the night trying to find something.

I personally wouldn't make such an allegation unless I had the proof beforehand, but that is just common sense to me.

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by JT

I must say, this guy Chris is going to look like a big fool if he doesn't produce something factual and provable that substantiates his allegations.

he wont, he's a "trust me because i said so" type of guy. the very first post on this thread was disingenuous, when he asks what others think of the ruth auto. it was a setup from the beginning. he couldnt close the deal though. that would involve breaking the secret oath of the royal order of the scarlet mongoose lodge. if me and mark dont like a boxing auto, we show 'why' every time and answer anyone's questions on why we believe it to be bad. we would supply as many exemplars as needed and asked for and wouldn't hesistate to show why. it called transparency and being accountable. anyone can do it this way and claim top secret CIA clearance.

[yanks12025]

Originally Posted by David Atkatz

Going to?

David,
When you found out your 1927 ball was fake, you said you asked a member who you respected lot. Just wondering if that member has offered his opinion on this Ruth yet?

[Mr. Zipper]

My friend Chris is no fool.

I can't speak to the Ruth. But if this is the work of an active master forger, it would be foolish to publicly announce the tells, and essentially provide a blueprint on how to make a more deceptive forgery.

[David Atkatz]

That bullshit excuse don't work no more.

No one is asking for a public revelation of the "tells."
Why hasn't that info been shared with H&S, so that they can pull the lot?
Why hasn't that info been shared with Jimmy Spence, so he could stop certifying this particular "master forger"?
Why hasn't the info been shared with PSA? (Same reasons as above.)

The answer is quite simple. No "tells."

[jgmp123]

In the end, H&S will not pull the item and it will sell north of $5000. Thy are getting paid twice off that for an item that has been authenticated by the guys they use. They are an auction house and really owe nothing to the hobby, so why waste anymore time with this thread.

[David Atkatz]

Originally Posted by yanks12025

David,
When you found out your 1927 ball was fake, you said you asked a member who you respected lot. Just wondering if that member has offered his opinion on this Ruth yet?

No.

[David Atkatz]

Originally Posted by jgmp123

In the end, H&S will not pull the item and it will sell north of $5000. Thy are getting paid twice off that for an item that has been authenticated by the guys they use. They are an auction house and really owe nothing to the hobby, so why waste anymore time with this thread.

Why the hell should they pull it, James? Because Chris said to? The same Chris who told us he left the consignor his phone number, while the consignor has told us twice he did not?

Either Chris is lying, or the consignor is. Guess who I believe?

[Mr. Zipper]

Originally Posted by rscheck

Seems guys have taken a hobby that we used to love growing up and totally bastardized it...,

Earlier in this thread, Josh from H&S stated, "The consignor is NOT in our hobby and is not a collector of sports memorabilia ..."

Was he mistaken?

Other than Heritage and H&S, has any other dealer or auction house reviewed this?

[rscheck]

Originally Posted by Mr. Zipper

Earlier in this thread, Josh from H&S stated, "The consignor is NOT in our hobby and is not a collector of sports memorabilia ..."

Was he mistaken?

Other than Heritage and H&S, has any other dealer or auction house reviewed this?

he was not mistaken. I used to buy pieces in the 70"s when my parents went to antique shows (older yearbooks and stuff like that). Collected cards like other kids but stopped collecting when I went in the service

[jgmp123]

David,

At this point I just don't care anymore. I had to pay for a $1200 car repair yesterday and Michigan lost....if I continue reading this thread I am probably just going to go off on someone and get kicked off the forum.

I am bowing out of this discussion.

[David Atkatz]

The consignor has been completely open and forthright with us. He has quickly answered every question put to him.
Don't you think Chris, who started all this, should be held to the same standard?

[travrosty]

the "tell" is a myth. like mysinger said on the other site, it's an authenticators job to tell the difference and withholding info doesn't help the hobby. its a myth that forgers troll the sites looking for people who give them info on how to make better forgeries. they have genuine exemplars, they have eyes.

they are really spending hundreds of hours watching people talk about bob feller and willie mays so they can catch one phrase on an autograph for their improvement? it's ridiculous. they are too busy forging and trying to make $

the ticket shown looks like the u is over the capital R in Ruth, (something that babe would do, so it wouldn't rule it out just based on that) and the other that Chris says is the same work looks like the "uth" was signed first, then the R was signed last, as the R seems to overlap the u. (something babe would be unlikely to do and would rule it out in my opinion) how does the same guy do that on one and different on the other? frankly, if you compare each letter of each signature side by side, there are loads of differences.

again, i dont know if the autograph on the ticket is a forgery, but please explain how this other autograph matches it?

sorry for showing side by side comparisons and explaining stuff, i know it's frowned upon on this thread.

[Wymers Auction]

Originally Posted by rscheck

he was not mistaken. I used to buy pieces in the 70"s when my parents went to antique shows (older yearbooks and stuff like that). Collected cards like other kids but stopped collecting when I went in the service

I have read this entire thread and I do not think anyone intends to call you out or question your honesty rscheck. Opinions differ on here vastly, but it really is about the auto and nothing personal.

[Westsiders]

Originally Posted by travrosty

the "tell" is a myth. like mysinger said on the other site, it's an authenticators job to tell the difference and withholding oinf doesn't help the hobby. its a myth that forgers troll the sites looking for people who give them info on how to make better forgeries. they have genuine exemplars, they have eyes.

they are really spending hundreds of hours watching people talk about bob feller and willie mays so they can catch one phrase on an autograph for their improvement? it's ridiculous. they are too busy forging and trying to make $

the ticket shown looks like the u is over the capital R in Ruth, (something that babe would do, so it wouldn't rule it out just based on that) and the other that Chris says is the same work looks like the "uth" was signed first, then the R was signed last, as the R seems to overlap the u. (something babe would be unlikely to do and would rule it out in my opinion) how does the same guy do that on one and different on the other? frankly, if you compare each letter of each signature side by side, there are loads of differences.

again, i dont know if the autograph on the ticket is a forgery, but please explain how this other autograph matches it?

sorry for showing side by side comparisons and explaining stuff, i know it's frowned upon on this thread.

Well played, Sir.

[shelly]

sorry

[JT]

Originally Posted by rscheck

I did. One other guy based on the same photos I sent Ron and Josh. He made an offer on the ticket but I thought it was low. The whole thing involved a couple of emails in the beginning of January....thats when I settled on H&S

Shelly,

He already answered your question.