A possible solution for the PSA 8 T206 Wagner?

[benjulmag]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

In this discussion a number of posters have said it wouldn't matter if the label were changed to AUTH, because every previous buyer had to know the card was trimmed, and still paid a record price for it. But I don't think that's entirely accurate.

I believe every previous buyer heard rumors that it was trimmed, and very easily could have decided that the rumors might not be true and that the card was good until proven otherwise.

Now the status of the card may change from "rumored" to "confirmed." Might that change people's perception and dissuade future buyers from setting the next world record?

If in fact reholding the card as an "A" does not materially impact the value of the card, that would be unprecedented. A's typically sell for a small percentage of 8's and while the notoriety of the card arguably will bump the price somewhat, it's hard to fathom the card selling for anything close to what it has in the past.

Several years ago the sister card to this Wagner, the Plank that was purportedly cut from the same sheet, sold for a small fraction of what it would have sold for had it been graded based on its appearance (i.e, an 8). It was a gorgeous card with colors that were noticeably stronger than the colors on most other Planks. At the time of the sale I suspect the great majority of potential bidders knew its history. Yet the grade on the holder won out.

The bigger issue, though, has nothing to do with what the Wagner would sell for if it is reholdered. As Barry noted, this Wagner has been the signature card of the hobby. Its currrent grade well symbolizes the fraud inherent iin our hobby. It's hypocrtitcal to urge the feds to bring indictments and act to clean up the hobby if the hobbyists themselves do not do their part. Anything other than insisting that this card be reholdered to reflect what in fact it is and putting pressure on all involved to see that to fruition would only bring more justified scorn on the hobby.

[brass_rat]

*IF* the card is reholdered, I sure hope that PSA slabs the original PSA 8 label and auctions it off. Maybe they would give first auction house dibs to some select individuals.



Steve

[travrosty]

The bigger issue, though, has nothing to do with what the Wagner would sell for if it is reholdered. As Barry noted, this Wagner has been the signature card of the hobby. Its currrent grade well symbolizes the fraud inherent iin our hobby. It's hypocrtitcal to urge the feds to bring indictments and act to clean up the hobby if the hobbyists themselves do not do their part. Anything other than insisting that this card be reholdered to reflect what in fact it is and putting pressure on all involved to see that to fruition would only bring more justified scorn on the hobby.



Corey, right on, the hobby has to insist every card and collector and hobbyist and grading standard is the same for everybody, every card, every time.

If we don't then we are saying that this collector, this card, this grade, in this instance, gets a pass, gets preferential treatment, and that is dangerous precedent.

It allows for more of it in the future, and like in autographs, we have been fighting this type of thing for years and years and it is the apathy of some who wish the status quo to continue or don't care one way or another that makes it harder and more drawn out to insist on reform so the hobby can show everyone that it has integrity.

if you are a guy getting a '70 reggie jackson 2nd year card graded, or a honus wagner t206, you are going to get the same service under the same standard and one card isn't worthy of fudging the numbers more than another.

but if billy crystal says, "this card is maaaaaavelous" so let's not insist it get graded according to the rules and standards, then it's our own fault and it will just take longer for reforms to come about.

autographs are a mess because of this and i would hope cards take the lead in insisting on integrity and labeling things an A, when they are an A, but maybe I am wrong. Maybe we get blinded by this one card so much we fall all over ourselves and we don't want the card to fall from grace. It needs to though before we can objectively make things better. It was trimmed.

The formally 2nd best condition card is now first place, and lets find out which one it is and crown that one the king. This one was a false claimant to the throne.

[teetwoohsix]

Originally Posted by travrosty

The bigger issue, though, has nothing to do with what the Wagner would sell for if it is reholdered. As Barry noted, this Wagner has been the signature card of the hobby. Its currrent grade well symbolizes the fraud inherent iin our hobby. It's hypocrtitcal to urge the feds to bring indictments and act to clean up the hobby if the hobbyists themselves do not do their part. Anything other than insisting that this card be reholdered to reflect what in fact it is and putting pressure on all involved to see that to fruition would only bring more justified scorn on the hobby.



Corey, right on, the hobby has to insist every card and collector and hobbyist and grading standard is the same for everybody, every card, every time.

If we don't then we are saying that this collector, this card, this grade, in this instance, gets a pass, gets preferential treatment, and that is dangerous precedent.

It allows for more of it in the future, and like in autographs, we have been fighting this type of thing for years and years and it is the apathy of some who wish the status quo to continue or don't care one way or another that makes it harder and more drawn out to insist on reform so the hobby can show everyone that it has integrity.

if you are a guy getting a '70 reggie jackson 2nd year card graded, or a honus wagner t206, you are going to get the same service under the same standard and one card isn't worthy of fudging the numbers more than another.

but if billy crystal says, "this card is maaaaaavelous" so let's not insist it get graded according to the rules and standards, then it's our own fault and it will just take longer for reforms to come about.

autographs are a mess because of this and i would hope cards take the lead in insisting on integrity and labeling things an A, when they are an A, but maybe I am wrong. Maybe we get blinded by this one card so much we fall all over ourselves and we don't want the card to fall from grace. It needs to though before we can objectively make things better. It was trimmed.

The formally 2nd best condition card is now first place, and lets find out which one it is and crown that one the king. This one was a false claimant to the throne.

Good post.

As far as reform goes, it has to start from within the person who is doing the deeds....if that doesn't happen, they won't stop.

Sincerely, Clayton

[birdman42]

Originally Posted by travrosty

Corey, right on, the hobby has to insist every card and collector and hobbyist and grading standard is the same for everybody, every card, every time.

So PSA is going to review every card Mastro ever submitted? Not gonna happen. (Gratuitous reductio ad absurdum.)

Bill

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by birdman42

So PSA is going to review every card Mastro ever submitted? Not gonna happen. (Gratuitous reductio ad absurdum.)

Bill

i was referring to carving out a special qualifier just to suit this card. since we know about this one being trimmed now, it should join the ranks of the Authentic/trimmed. this card may be special in the hobby, but it shouldnt be special in the card grading world. treat it the same.

[drc]

PSA8 Trimmed would make no sense. It would be like labeling a card Mint Poor. Or Up Down (Do I hear a Cat Dog anyone?). Nrrmt-Mt and altered are mutually exclusive terms-- the presence of one means the absence of the other.

And, yes, strip cards and Kellogg's cards that were intended to be hand cut are a different situation. That topic is a for another thread some day.

The practical issue is if the card is indeed 'hand cut' (using the term colloquially) and it is known by the seller that it is altered, then the seller has to detail its condition correctly at next sale. A significant event is how it is described next time it comes up for auction.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by benjulmag

The bigger issue, though, has nothing to do with what the Wagner would sell for if it is reholdered. As Barry noted, this Wagner has been the signature card of the hobby. Its currrent grade well symbolizes the fraud inherent iin our hobby. It's hypocrtitcal to urge the feds to bring indictments and act to clean up the hobby if the hobbyists themselves do not do their part. Anything other than insisting that this card be reholdered to reflect what in fact it is and putting pressure on all involved to see that to fruition would only bring more justified scorn on the hobby.

This point gets to the gist of my original thought. I think a case could easily be made that, if this is proven out, the card would technically have been cut from a sheet and still be the nicest looking one in the hobby. That is why only adding the word (Hand Cut) to the label would make it technically correct. There really is no denying it, as much as everyone wants to give their opinion, which is great, the card would be labeled correctly and that procedure might not diminish the awe of the card. If that can't, or won't be done, then only an AUT grade should be on the label. After reading all of these thoughts I still haven't changed my original premise yet. It looks like there are some others who feel this way too.

[barrysloate]

Hi Leon- while I always respect your views and try to support them, I don't understand why this card is any different than any other T206. Of course it depicts Honus Wagner and is very expensive, but it has to be graded with the same standards used for all T206's. And if any other one is trimmed down to look NR MT (we have to assume every card that has the edges shaved is going to have at minimum fabulous eye appeal) it can be assigned one grade and one only: AUTH. It's an altered card, period. It was done to deceive a buyer by making it appear a higher grade than it actually is.

So what is different about this card? If no other trimmed T206 merits the hand cut designation, why does this one? I don't see the distinction.

[teetwoohsix]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Hi Leon- while I always respect your views and try to support them, I don't understand why this card is any different than any other T206. Of course it depicts Honus Wagner and is very expensive, but it has to be graded with the same standards used for all T206's. And if any other one is trimmed down to look NR MT (we have to assume every card that has the edges shaved is going to have at minimum fabulous eye appeal) it can be assigned one grade and one only: AUTH. It's an altered card, period. It was done to deceive a buyer by making it appear a higher grade than it actually is.

So what is different about this card? If no other trimmed T206 merits the hand cut designation, why does this one? I don't see the distinction.

+1

[frankbmd]

My understanding of valuing cards with PSA qualifiers is roughly a 2 pt reduction in the numerical grade (ie PSA 6 OC ~ PSA 4 in value).

Therefore should not the Wagner be reslabbed as a

PSA 10 HC

I don't expect any support for this idea, as I don't support it either. I just don't like the whole qualifier issue with PSA.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Hi Leon- while I always respect your views and try to support them, I don't understand why this card is any different than any other T206. Of course it depicts Honus Wagner and is very expensive, but it has to be graded with the same standards used for all T206's. And if any other one is trimmed down to look NR MT (we have to assume every card that has the edges shaved is going to have at minimum fabulous eye appeal) it can be assigned one grade and one only: AUTH. It's an altered card, period. It was done to deceive a buyer by making it appear a higher grade than it actually is.

So what is different about this card? If no other trimmed T206 merits the hand cut designation, why does this one? I don't see the distinction.

This card is different. It transcends the hobby. It is different for that reason. Who made the rule that it can't have "PSA 8 - Hand Cut"? Is there some special Grading Police I am unaware of? It was hand cut, put it on the slab and make it technically correct. How many other T206's, or any cards in the hobby, are like this one? Answer that question and you can get a little closer to accepting my suggested compromise. I am talking about helping preserve the greatness of The Card. Even the other top Wagners don't have this one's attributes. As most have said, at this point it doesn't really matter what is on the slab as everyone in the collecting world knows what it is. Why not make the label be correct and not take away it's greatness? I know some hobbyists will never accept this, and that is ok, I still think it's not a bad idea. I am stubborn though . thanks to all who have responded. Everyone's opinion is appreciated.

[Peter_Spaeth]

If it's trimmed, the grade is irrelevant -- it's Authentic because it's altered. If it's a strip card etc. that was MEANT to be hand cut, then it isn't really altered so the grade becomes at least marginally relevant.

[mark evans]

I see Leon's point about trying to preserve the 'greatness of the card' but think this can be achieved consistent with the principles of grading with an "Authentic" grade so long as accompanied by an appropriate characterization. And, I don't think "Gretzky/McNall" does the job.

I was obviously joking in my prior post about "Mastro Wagner" although Bill does appear to be the person most responsible for bringing the card into the hobby and onto its way to become the icon it is today. I think with all the creativity among our members, someone could come up with a fitting characterization. "Hobby Icon"?

[teetwoohsix]

Originally Posted by mark evans

I see Leon's point about trying to preserve the 'greatness of the card' but think this can be achieved consistent with the principles of grading with an "Authentic" grade so long as accompanied by an appropriate characterization. And, I don't think "Gretzky/McNall" does the job.

I was obviously joking in my prior post about "Mastro Wagner" although Bill does appear to be the person most responsible for bringing the card into the hobby and onto its way to become the icon it is today. I think with all the creativity among our members, someone could come up with a fitting characterization. "Hobby Icon"?

How about....."The Card" ?

[teetwoohsix]

Originally Posted by Leon

This card is different. It transcends the hobby. It is different for that reason. Who made the rule that it can't have "PSA 8 - Hand Cut"? Is there some special Grading Police I am unaware of? It was hand cut, put it on the slab and make it technically correct. How many other T206's, or any cards in the hobby, are like this one? Answer that question and you can get a little closer to accepting my suggested compromise. I am talking about helping preserve the greatness of The Card. Even the other top Wagners don't have this one's attributes. As most have said, at this point it doesn't really matter what is on the slab as everyone in the collecting world knows what it is. Why not make the label be correct and not take away it's greatness? I know some hobbyists will never accept this, and that is ok, I still think it's not a bad idea. I am stubborn though . thanks to all who have responded. Everyone's opinion is appreciated.

I understand your logic Leon, on all points. I think it will always be the "notorious card" though, and will always be worth a boatload of $$, as long as it didn't just have an "A" on the label- it would still have to have the "label" it has, just not the "grade".

Sincerely, Clayton

[barrysloate]

Well if you are insistent that this card is different then I am going to suggest how it can be distinguished from other cards: how about if the label reads "AUTH hand cut?" That gives it a little more cache and separates it from the garden variety AUTH that is nothing more than a card altered by a card doctor. The "AUTH hand cut" designation would be used to show that it was originally cut off of a sheet. I can live with that.

But the term "PSA 8" has to be removed from the equation. There is nothing PSA 8 about this card. It only looks NR MT/MT because it was trimmed to look that way. It only deserves that designation if it has remained nearly pristine since it was issued, similar to the amazing Black Swamp cards.

That's my point, and I'm sticking to it. I guess we'll have to disagree on the PSA 8 part of it.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Well if you are insistent that this card is different then I am going to suggest how it can be distinguished from other cards: how about if the label reads "AUTH hand cut?" That gives it a little more cache and separates it from the garden variety AUTH that is nothing more than a card altered by a card doctor. The "AUTH hand cut" designation would be used to show that it was originally cut off of a sheet. I can live with that.

But the term "PSA 8" has to be removed from the equation. There is nothing PSA 8 about this card. It only looks NR MT/MT because it was trimmed to look that way. It only deserves that designation if it has remained nearly pristine since it was issued, similar to the amazing Black Swamp cards.

That's my point, and I'm sticking to it. I guess we'll have to disagree on the PSA 8 part of it.

I respect your opinion Barry. When you say there is nothing about this card that is NRMT-MT, I politely disagree. When I look at it from arm's length, irrespective of the minute trimming, it looks like an 8. No other T206 Wags does.

[barrysloate]

Absolutely agree that no other Wagner looks like an 8. And this card does look like one. But trimmed cards are not supposed to get 8's. Maybe we've taken this one as far as we can go. Let's politely and respectfully accept we disagree. I happen to love the card and think it's a knockout. I'm just not crazy about that silly little label on it.

[3-2-count]

There will no doubt be opinions on both sides of the fence when it comes to the topic at hand, but the fact remains that Psa does and always has awarded numerical grades to hand cut cards. Where does one draw the line?? I see both arguments and don't lean either way. Cards below are not mine, simply shown for reference.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Leon

I respect your opinion Barry. When you say there is nothing about this card that is NRMT-MT, I politely disagree. When I look at it from arm's length, irrespective of the minute trimming, it looks like an 8. No other T206 Wags does.

So we assign grades based on how well a card was trimmed? Sorry, just don't buy that.

[benjulmag]

Originally Posted by Leon

I respect your opinion Barry. When you say there is nothing about this card that is NRMT-MT, I politely disagree. When I look at it from arm's length, irrespective of the minute trimming, it looks like an 8. No other T206 Wags does.

As point of fact, there are two other Wagners (oversized) that if trimmed with appropriate adroitness can be made to APPEAR comparably high grade. Is that where we want to go?