1921 Herpolsheimers graded w/o mark

[ullmandds]

Brian... are you proposing All of the herpolsheimers 1916 and 1921 are fake. And by fake. Do you mean genuine copies blank backs with a fake stamp? Or is the card itself fake?

[Brian Van Horn]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

Brian... are you proposing All of the herpolsheimers 1916 and 1921 are fake. And by fake. Do you mean genuine copies blank backs with a fake stamp? Or is the card itself fake?

Pete,

Good to hear from you and Happy Holidays.

The 1916 Herpolsheimer cards are real. The "1921", which I have handled at a show are NOT. Not a back stamp like a strip card in the production.

[nolemmings]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Considering Brian originally aired his views in 2004, I think that is an unfounded and unfair comment.

I could not disagree more. He admitted that he posted to discourage bidding. He made feeble attempts to say "bid as you wish" while stating multiple--multiple--times not that he believed the cards to be fakes, but as a matter of fact they were fakes. Not just 19 years ago-- but in the weeks during an ongoing auction, when he himself chose to revive the idiocy. He did not couch his remarks in terms of his opinion; in fact, he has no independent opinion, but instead relies exclusively on a single encounter from nearly 20 years ago. Only now does he offer the BS additional remarks that the design is inferior and that the card must be fake because a real one would have included the advertiser's street address. Absurd nonsense. And still doubling down, rather than admit he might be, could in the realm of possibility, be wrong.

I will not do business with him again.

[molenick]

Brian clearly has a strongly held and unshakeable belief that the Herpolsheimer's cards are not real.

So maybe he can clarify why the 1921 Standard Biscuit Davenport card he owns is real (see post 182) and the Davenport in the LOTG auction is fake (see below).

They are both graded by PSA, have no address on the back, and have a border pattern on the back inferior to the Holsum Bread pattern. In all seriousness, is there something I am missing here? Is there any more to it than "a dealer in 1999 told me the Herpolsheimer's are fake"?

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by Brian Van Horn

Dan,

It's a free country. Spend the way you want. Not ashamed of the truth.

Just like your stupid "Waner" RPPC you're inability to handle the truth is breathtaking. If you're not ashamed of your behavior or at least embarrassed by it, you should be. I suppose in the end we should all be thanking you for your dogged stupidity as it did bring to light irrefutable proof the cards are real.

[RCMcKenzie]

The market has spoken. I'm not following why he has to conform. His questions prompted the research that cleared up many questions about the cards' origins. I don't see anyone else agreeing with him. I would think Al and his sellers are overjoyed with the end results. I did bid, but did not win any. I already have a nice e121 Jack Graney that I paid $40 for. Am I allowed to say, "I already have the Jack Graney and like the American Caramel backs better."?

[Brian Van Horn]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

Just like your stupid "Waner" RPPC you're inability to handle the truth is breathtaking. If you're not ashamed of your behavior or at least embarrassed by it, you should be. I suppose in the end we should all be thanking you for your dogged stupidity as it did bring to light irrefutable proof the cards are real.

Oh, Thank You! Thank You! Thank you!

I was actually hoping that would come up in this thread.

I confirmed it with a Waner relative that was Paul Waner.

Happy Holidays!

[Brian Van Horn]

Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie

The market has spoken. I'm not following why he has to conform. His questions prompted the research that cleared up many questions about the cards' origins. I don't see anyone else agreeing with him. I would think Al and his sellers are overjoyed with the end results. I did bid, but did not win any. I already have a nice e121 Jack Graney that I paid $40 for. Am I allowed to say, "I already have the Jack Graney and like the
American Caramel backs better."?

I love your last statement.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Brian Van Horn

Pete,

Good to hear from you and Happy Holidays.

The 1916 Herpolsheimer cards are real. The "1921", which I have handled at a show are NOT. Not a back stamp like a strip card in the production.

thx. I used to own the 1916 cobb that I believe jeff has..and it always looked fine to me...albeit overgraded by psa!!!!!

[Brian Van Horn]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

thx. I used to own the 1916 cobb that I believe jeff has..and it always looked fine to me...albeit overgraded by psa!!!!!

Pete,

Not properly graded by PSA. Oh, wait.

[ullmandds]

slim...is slim!

[Brian Van Horn]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

slim...is slim!

Pete,

Yes, Slim is Slim but slimmer and just not in graded 5 excellent shape despite PSA's grade. The card is trimmed. I will let you compare it with another grading from the set which is by SGC. The Peckinpaugh (properly spelled) should actually be a SGC 10 Poor 1 because it measures. For your viewing pleasure and comparison.

[Brian Van Horn]

Originally Posted by molenick

Brian clearly has a strongly held and unshakeable belief that the Herpolsheimer's cards are not real.

So maybe he can clarify why the 1921 Standard Biscuit Davenport card he owns is real (see post 182) and the Davenport in the LOTG auction is fake (see below).

They are both graded by PSA, have no address on the back, and have a border pattern on the back inferior to the Holsum Bread pattern. In all seriousness, is there something I am missing here? Is there any more to it than "a dealer in 1999 told me the Herpolsheimer's are fake"?

If you are a printer-and complete disclosure here beyond any need-and my uncle was one, you can get access to the proper paper for a fraud. That includes timeframe and type. Not difficult in either circumstance. Just so we're clear here, this subject never came up between my uncle and myself. He is deceased but was living past the time of the May 1999 meeting at the Robert Morris show with the dealer.

[molenick]

Originally Posted by Brian Van Horn

If you are a printer-and complete disclosure here beyond any need-and my uncle was one, you can get access to the proper paper for a fraud. That includes timeframe and type. Not difficult in either circumstance. Just so we're clear here, this subject never came up between my uncle and myself. He is deceased but was living past the time of the May 1999 meeting at the Robert Morris show with the dealer.

So you're saying the subject never came up between you and your uncle? If you said your uncle was a printer and thought the cards were a fraud, that at least would be one other opinion. But I don't think you are saying that.

I think you are saying that the cards could be a fraud because a printer could come up with paper to use to make fake cards. Actually, I think you are saying the cards are a fraud because it is possible to access paper to commit a fraud. I think by that logic, every card that exists could be a fraud.

I have a ten dollar bill in my wallet. It is possible for someone to make counterfeit ten dollars bills. That does not mean my ten dollar bill is counterfeit.

I am also not clear what distinguishes your 1921 Standard Biscuit Davenport as being real and the LOTG Herpolsheimer's Davenport as being fake. By your logic, they both could be fake.

[I am not sure why I keep trying to have a logical discussion when I think Brian is just messing with us at this point.]

[RCMcKenzie]

That's why I was asking him earlier in this thread if he knew something we don't. Like he and his cousin watched his cousin's stepdad make these in the 70's. People did make repros in the 70's. I no longer am concerned about it and he is free to believe what he wants.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Brian Van Horn

If you are a printer-and complete disclosure here beyond any need-and my uncle was one, you can get access to the proper paper for a fraud. That includes timeframe and type. Not difficult in either circumstance. Just so we're clear here, this subject never came up between my uncle and myself. He is deceased but was living past the time of the May 1999 meeting at the Robert Morris show with the dealer.

LOL, ANYBODY with a library card can get the proper paper. Thing is new printing on old paper is very easy to see if you know what to look for. For complete disclosure I know a little more than the average person about printing.

Don't get me wrong I know for a fact there are a ton of amazing counterfeits out there. Take any picture to any printer and they can make as many perfect copies as you want. There is NO reason this can't just as easily be done with simple baseball cards. Now it actually happening is a very rare thing for a LOT of reasons.

[Brian Van Horn]

Originally Posted by molenick

So you're saying the subject never came up between you and your uncle? If you said your uncle was a printer and thought the cards were a fraud, that at least would be one other opinion. But I don't think you are saying that.

I think you are saying that the cards could be a fraud because a printer could come up with paper to use to make fake cards. Actually, I think you are saying the cards are a fraud because it is possible to access paper to commit a fraud. I think by that logic, every card that exists could be a fraud.

I have a ten dollar bill in my wallet. It is possible for someone to make counterfeit ten dollars bills. That does not mean my ten dollar bill is counterfeit.

I am also not clear what distinguishes your 1921 Standard Biscuit Davenport as being real and the LOTG Herpolsheimer's Davenport as being fake. By your logic, they both could be fake.

[I am not sure why I keep trying to have a logical discussion when I think Brian is just messing with us at this point.]

Michael,

Forgive me, but I am getting carpal tunnel from LOL! Not messing with you, but HIGHLY enjoying this thread.

I met the dealer in May 1999 and he told me with his hand going over the cards that they were not real and made in the 1970's. I also handled the cards with concern about the design which looked like, in my opinion, something influenced by the disco era, but I digress.

On my uncle, I simply mentioned him because of complete disclosure on my side.

To follow up on your one paragraph:

"I think you are saying that the cards could be a fraud because a printer could come up with paper to use to make fake cards. Actually, I think you are saying the cards are a fraud because it is possible to access paper to commit a fraud. I think by that logic, every card that exists could be a fraud."

Right now, it is a printer by trade and not a computer printer. As time goes on old (the type of paper) will meet up with the new/evolving with Artificial Intelligence. And in some auctions, Love of the Game not included, there will be shill bidding to boot.

Both of the Davenports I have from 1921 (Holsum Bread and Standard Biscuit) are original. The only thing about the 1970's Herpolsheimer is that it is possible that the printer who made the cards was inspired by ad border design and updated to disco floor.

Now, to converse with your subconscious in brackets. There are always two sides to a matter.

I'm entertained, but not buying it or the "1921" (not) Herpolsheimer's cards.

[rhettyeakley]

The weird part about your theory of fake cards Brian is...

the subjects included in the "fake" Herpolsheimer cards line up perfectly with the D350 Standard Biscuit and Holsum Bread (Type 2) set perfectly as VERY early 1921 sets and pre-date the earliest version of the E121 Series 80 set because by the time the E121-80 set was printed many of the "dropped" cards had been eliminated from the lineup.

WHAT MAKES THIS INTERESTING?

This knowledge is only known by me and a handful of other people in the entire world and was known by nobody in the 1970's.

And, when I say they line up perfectly...I mean there are 0 outliers! There is not a single mistake made in the Herpolsheimer's checklist and includes copies of cards that were not known to exist in the "E121 family of sets" in the 1970's...like the Davenport card (which is only included in the sets listed above and 1-2 copies in the world as a W575-1)

With all due respect you are being ridiculous about this subject and you seem to really have a hard time with admitting when you are wrong.

I am done with this conversation at this point and would advise everyone to stop "feeding the troll" as Brian is obviously not looking at anything here objectively and is (I can only imagine at this point) is somehow getting pleasure from his troll behavior.

[Brian Van Horn]

Originally Posted by rhettyeakley

The weird part about your theory of fake cards Brian is...

the subjects included in the "fake" Herpolsheimer cards line up perfectly with the D350 Standard Biscuit and Holsum Bread (Type 2) set perfectly as VERY early 1921 sets and pre-date the earliest version of the E121 Series 80 set because by the time the E121-80 set was printed many of the "dropped" cards had been eliminated from the lineup.

WHAT MAKES THIS INTERESTING?

This knowledge is only known by me and a handful of other people in the entire world and was known by nobody in the 1970's.

And, when I say they line up perfectly...I mean there are 0 outliers! There is not a single mistake made in the Herpolsheimer's checklist and includes copies of cards that were not known to exist in the "E121 family of sets" in the 1970's...like the Davenport card (which is only included in the sets listed above and 1-2 copies in the world as a W575-1)

With all due respect you are being ridiculous about this subject and you seem to really have a hard time with admitting when you are wrong.

I am done with this conversation at this point and would advise everyone to stop "feeding the troll" as Brian is obviously not looking at anything here objectively and is (I can only imagine at this point) is somehow getting pleasure from his troll behavior.

LOL!

Thank you for feeding me, Rhett.

Now, Peckinpaugh/Peckinbaugh. Let's hear the response.

Happy Holidays

[StraightRaceCards]

I’ve never seen Herpolsheimers cards until this thread. Very cool!

As a quick aside, was watching the Polar Express with my kids and the kids on the train yell, “Herpolsheimers!!!”

It made me laugh out loud, hope everyone has a great Christmas season!

Sorry for hi-jacking the thread…

Now, back to arguing about the authenticity of the cards, ha!

[Brian Van Horn]

Matt,

Happy Holidays to you as well.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

thx. I used to own the 1916 cobb that I believe jeff has..and it always looked fine to me...albeit overgraded by psa!!!!!

How dare you, it should be a 6!

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by calvindog

How dare you, it should be a 6!

haha...it WAS a 6 wasn't it! with that corner!!!! Is that the same card???

[calvindog]

Are you thinking of the fake 1921 Cobb? That’s a PSA 6MK. With the $5 written on the back in pencil.

[Brian Van Horn]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Are you thinking of the fake 1921 Cobb? That’s a PSA 6MK. With the $5 written on the back in pencil.

Thank you, Jeffrey, and my apologies.

The card you posted on 7-20-2009 at 09:58 PM is the Cobb I saw at the Robert Morris show the next to last Saturday in May 1999. In case anybody wonders, although the October show has gone away and the show has moved to Monroeville, the one constant is the show always begins the third Friday of May.

https://www.net54baseball.com/showth...+Herpolsheimer

[Brian Van Horn]

One more note:

There were a few of the group in the case in May 1999 that were not marked in price on the back. Do I have a memory of which? No. Do I have a memory of the Cobb. YES! Yes, I handled the card.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by calvindog

How dare you, it should be a 6!

what, no address on the back? Must be a fake...

[Brian Van Horn]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

what, no address on the back? Must be a fake...

LOL!

Now, now, now. Even the fakes from "1921" (sarcasm highlighted in quotation marks) have second floor. Let's remember fraud etiquette.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Brian Van Horn

LOL!

Now, now, now. Even the fakes from 1921 have second floor. Let's remember fraud etiquette.

2nd floor is the location of the Boys dept. where the cards were given out with the purchase of a boy's suit. That's how department stores worked. It's not an address.

[Brian Van Horn]

Scott,

Thank you and I understand, but you may want to rephrase the response, because the poster before me made the argument no address must be a fraud.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Brian Van Horn

Scott,

Thank you and I understand, but you may want to rephrase the response, because the poster before me made the argument no address must be a fraud.

OMG, that was me also, and it was joke.

[Brian Van Horn]

Lol!

[molenick]

I have to admit, I read this thread now and it actually does make me laugh out loud.

[Brian Van Horn]

Originally Posted by molenick

I have to admit, I read this thread now and it actually does make me laugh out loud.

Sorry, but no discount on the veal with this stage show.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Are you thinking of the fake 1921 Cobb? That’s a PSA 6MK. With the $5 written on the back in pencil.

Maybe i had the fakey!

[Eric72]

I wonder how long this thread will go before someone threatens to sue themself.


(it has happened before)

[Brian Van Horn]

Originally Posted by Eric72

I wonder how long this thread will go before someone threatens to sue themself.


(it has happened before)

Check Vegas for the odds in the morning.

[glynparson]

This is the dumbest thread I think I have ever read. They are fake because some guy told me they were. He offered no proof but he said they were so he’s right because he said it like 25 years ago. Screw the opinions of several incredibly knowledgeable pre war card experts who have owned examples and handled them raw. I’m going to believe some dude who’s name I can’t even remember. What a truly asinine position to take. I mean seriously there are plenty of things I disagree with Leon and Jeff about but this sure as hell is not one of them. You have offered zero credible evidence that these are fake absolutely none. Just constantly repeating the same vague bs isn’t proof.

[scooter729]

With so many views on this, I may as well chime in that I'm always in the market for 1916 Herpolsheimers. Real ones preferred, but my group of fakes looked real enough to fool PSA, so will consider good fakes. Back printing on your fakes should be inconsistent as well.

[jggames]

Originally Posted by Brian Van Horn

Michael,

I also direct your attention to the advertisement border design. This was a knockoff of Holsum Bread, but a cheap one. It doesn't look like a pattern from the 1920s, but an imitation for the 1970s.

Wow, this is an all-time thread. Like others I enjoy printmaking so, FWIW, with a fairly quick search I was able to find both borders available in the 1930s and 40s, so the border in question was definitely available before the 1970s.

https://archive.org/details/LanstonM...e/n23/mode/2up

A typographical specimen booklet containing borders and ornaments for casting on the Lanston Monotype Composition Caster, Lanston Monotype Type-Caster, Lanston Monotype Giant Caster and Monotype-Thompson Type-Caster. This booklet is from a Lanston Monotype specimen book (binder) bearing the general title "Monotype Type Faces." It is undated, but based on internal evidence elsewhere in the binder it is from the late 1930s or early 1940s.

[Brian Van Horn]

Originally Posted by scooter729

With so many views on this, I may as well chime in that I'm always in the market for 1916 Herpolsheimers. Real ones preferred, but my group of fakes looked real enough to fool PSA, so will consider good fakes. Back printing on your fakes should be inconsistent as well.

Scott,

At no point were the 1916 Herpolsheimer cards pointed to as fakes. The 1921s are the ones.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by jggames

Wow, this is an all-time thread. Like others I enjoy printmaking so, FWIW, with a fairly quick search I was able to find both borders available in the 1930s and 40s, so the border in question was definitely available before the 1970s.

https://archive.org/details/LanstonM...e/n23/mode/2up

A typographical specimen booklet containing borders and ornaments for casting on the Lanston Monotype Composition Caster, Lanston Monotype Type-Caster, Lanston Monotype Giant Caster and Monotype-Thompson Type-Caster. This booklet is from a Lanston Monotype specimen book (binder) bearing the general title "Monotype Type Faces." It is undated, but based on internal evidence elsewhere in the binder it is from the late 1930s or early 1940s.

Thank you for the link. That is some beautiful artwork pictured.

[frankbmd]

Does a Sovereign Reverse Have an Open Border?

With such a fine collection of borders it is a shame that Lanston went out of business along with their Monotype Composition Casters et al.
Now we have to deal with the issue of open borders.



Indeed it does not have an open border.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by bnorth

Thank you for the link. That is some beautiful artwork pictured.

It certainly is.

I was going to post that the e121 cards were typographed.


As far as faking offset transfers, it's not easy. If you were newly typographing a set of cards, making offset transfers while the cards were still wet would be very easy.

There are exceptions, some inks may never completely dry. And some are more susceptible to chemical alteration.
Like the vegetable oil based inks many magazines are printed with today. They've improved, but SI from around the time they switched were easily damaged by handling them.

And at least one formulation of ink used in the 1870's-80's can leave a transfer from weight placed on it during shipping.

Generally though, the inks were well formulated to dry well and quickly, and don't leave transfers post factory.

[Brian Van Horn]

Originally Posted by jggames

Wow, this is an all-time thread. Like others I enjoy printmaking so, FWIW, with a fairly quick search I was able to find both borders available in the 1930s and 40s, so the border in question was definitely available before the 1970s.

https://archive.org/details/LanstonM...e/n23/mode/2up

A typographical specimen booklet containing borders and ornaments for casting on the Lanston Monotype Composition Caster, Lanston Monotype Type-Caster, Lanston Monotype Giant Caster and Monotype-Thompson Type-Caster. This booklet is from a Lanston Monotype specimen book (binder) bearing the general title "Monotype Type Faces." It is undated, but based on internal evidence elsewhere in the binder it is from the late 1930s or early 1940s.

Jason,

6M434N I would agree with about the Holsum Bread.

Now, the 6 Pt. 635N; Also, 6M635N is close, but....and leaves me with one question of course......with the also in the reference, was what was the variable between designs?

I apologize, but I was told these were made in the 1970's by the dealer (told doesn't mean he made them) and the one on the back of the "1921" still looks like the design of a disco floor or even some coffee tables from the 1970's which may have been the inspiration for the design.

[Brian Van Horn]

Jason,

Can I direct your attention to the synopsis in the white of the website below the page you offered in your information?


https://archive.org/details/LanstonM...e/n23/mode/2up

"A typographical specimen booklet containing borders and ornaments for casting on the Lanston Monotype Composition Caster, Lanston Monotype Type-Caster, Lanston Monotype Giant Caster and Monotype-Thompson Type-Caster. This booklet is from a Lanston Monotype specimen book (binder) bearing the general title "Monotype Type Faces." It is undated, but based on internal evidence elsewhere in the binder it is from the late 1930s or early 1940s."

I apologize, but this paragraph eliminates the design.

[molenick]

Originally Posted by Brian Van Horn

Jason,

Can I direct your attention to the synopsis in the white of the website below the page you offered in your information


https://archive.org/details/LanstonM...e/n23/mode/2up

"A typographical specimen booklet containing borders and ornaments for casting on the Lanston Monotype Composition Caster, Lanston Monotype Type-Caster, Lanston Monotype Giant Caster and Monotype-Thompson Type-Caster. This booklet is from a Lanston Monotype specimen book (binder) bearing the general title "Monotype Type Faces." It is undated, but based on internal evidence elsewhere in the binder it is from the late 1930s or early 1940s."

I apologize, but this paragraph eliminates the design.

It eliminates it from being a disco-inspired design from the 1970s. It does not mean the design was not in use earlier. Design 6M434N matches the Holsum Bread design. So either your Holsum Bread card is fake or it is possible that a design used in the late 1930s was also used in the 1920s.

[jggames]

Originally Posted by molenick

It eliminates it from being a disco-inspired design from the 1970s. It does not mean the design was not in use earlier. Design 6M434N matches the Holsum Bread design. So either your Holsum Bread card is fake or it is possible that a design used in the late 1930s was also used in the 1920s.

Exactly.

[Brian Van Horn]

Originally Posted by molenick

It eliminates it from being a disco-inspired design from the 1970s. It does not mean the design was not in use earlier. Design 6M434N matches the Holsum Bread design. So either your Holsum Bread card is fake or it is possible that a design used in the late 1930s was also used in the 1920s.

Nope.

[Brian Van Horn]

[QUOTE=jggames;2392131]Exactly.[/QUOTE


Nope.