Contemporary Baseball Era Committee for Managers/Executives/Umpires for Hall of Fame

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by jayshum

It's hard to decide how to rate managers because it depends so much on the players they have to work with. When Terry Francona was managing the Phillies, no one talked about how great he was as a manager, but the Phillies didn't have very good teams then. Bochy is a little under .500 for his career but has won 3 World Series so is he a Hall of Fame manager with a record under .500?

Was Joe Torre a great manager or was he just lucky to be the Yankees manager when Mariano Rivera and Derek Jeter (among others) happened to be on the team? When he was hired by the Yankees, the New York Daily News called him Clueless Joe based on his prior managing career which was well under .500 before he got to the Yankees. Did the Yankees win 4 World Series because of him or in spite of him being the manager?

How long was Casey Stengel a nobody as a manager? A long time.

[jayshum]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

How long was Casey Stengel a nobody as a manager? A long time.

Stengel is another great example. Nothing like 12 seasons with the Yankees to make your managerial record look good.

A quote from Warren Spahn - "I'm probably the only guy who worked for (Casey) Stengel before and after he was a genius."

[jayshum]

I don't think there are any analytics that have been developed to analyze the impact a manager has on a team winning games. If anyone is aware of anything, please provide information about what there is.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by jayshum

I don't think there are any analytics that have been developed to analyze the impact a manager has on a team winning games. If anyone is aware of anything, please provide information about what there is.

If there was, Dave Roberts would be the worst post season manager of all time.

[Misunderestimated]

THis is the most thoughtful thing written on HOF managers I'm aware of (Bill James, of course)
https://www.billjamesonline.com/the_..._fame_manager/


Earlier, in 1997, he wrote a whoie (great) book on managers from "1870 to Today"

This article is also interesting:
https://tht.fangraphs.com/evaluating-managers/

[ValKehl]

FWIW, HOFer Bucky Harris has a losing record as a manager - 2,158 wins vs. 2,219 losses. He won 3 pennants and 2 WS titles - in 1924 with the Senators and in 1947 with the Yankees.

[JollyElm]

If Piniella gets in, get ready for a flood of new, exorbitantly-priced eBay listings for his rookie card. Not just his 'real' 1964 Topps RC, but his 1968 and 1969 Topps RCs as well. Going to be a lot of scamming going on, because those other two are technically rookie cards, but not his first card. How many sellers are going to spell that out?

Oh well, caveat emptor.

[Fred]

Originally Posted by ValKehl

FWIW, HOFer Bucky Harris has a losing record as a manager - 2,158 wins vs. 2,219 losses. He won 3 pennants and 2 WS titles - in 1924 with the Senators and in 1947 with the Yankees.

That's supports a good case for Bochy.

[Steve D]

Personally, I could see both Leyland and Piniella being elected:

Leyland:

22 years - 1,769 wins
8 times in playoffs
6 division titles
1997 world series champ
3-time league champ
3-time manager of the year (MOTY)
3-time runner-up for MOTY
Managed Team-USA to WBC title in 2017

Piniella:

23 years - 1,835 wins
7 times in playoffs
6 division titles
1990 world series champ
3-time MOTY
1-time runner-up for MOTY
American League record 116 wins with 2001 Mariners

Steve

[jayshum]

Originally Posted by Misunderestimated

THis is the most thoughtful thing written on HOF managers I'm aware of (Bill James, of course)
https://www.billjamesonline.com/the_..._fame_manager/


Earlier, in 1997, he wrote a whoie (great) book on managers from "1870 to Today"

This article is also interesting:
https://tht.fangraphs.com/evaluating-managers/

Thanks for posting the links. I like how Bill James tries to come up with some measure of expected performance for a team that can be compared to how they actually did as a way to evaluate how a manager did, but I still think that leaves out personnel changes from one season to the next. If lost 100 games then sign 3 big free agents, basing an expected record on the previous 2 seasons doesn't seem that valid. For managers pre free agency, maybe it works a little better, but still players change from year to year.

[Tabe]

I don't see much of a case for any of the managers. Gaston had two titles but did absolutely nothing else and had a short career. Piniella and Leyland are both remembered as having teams that underperformed. Piniella won 116 games - swept in the playoffs. Had Unit, ARod, Junior, and Edgar - all in their primes - and did nothing with them.

[Mike D.]

Originally Posted by JollyElm

If Piniella gets in, get ready for a flood of new, exorbitantly-priced eBay listings for his rookie card. Not just his 'real' 1964 Topps RC, but his 1968 and 1969 Topps RCs as well. Going to be a lot of scamming going on, because those other two are technically rookie cards, but not his first card. How many buyers are going to spell that out?

Oh well, caveat emptor.

The one that really cracks me up is when someone asks for big bucks for a guys "manager rookie card", which I think in Piniella's case might be 1986 Topps Traded?

[Fred]

Originally Posted by Tabe

I don't see much of a case for any of the managers. Gaston had two titles but did absolutely nothing else and had a short career. Piniella and Leyland are both remembered as having teams that underperformed. Piniella won 116 games - swept in the playoffs. Had Unit, ARod, Junior, and Edgar - all in their primes - and did nothing with them.

Dang! A definite die hard Mariners fan! That was a great season for Seattle, I thought they were going to clean house in the post season that year.

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

Hank "Who?" Peters? If they're so desperate to throw people of this category through the doors, there's always Bavasi or Gabe Paul. Charley O? At this point, inducting the mule as opposed to the man wouldn't make the HOF look any less ridiculous.

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

Even as a Canadian, I'm perfectly against Gaston getting in. Those teams were plied with ringers brought in for a season or two then sold off. Never cared for those Jays teams. With enough money and desire, anyone can buy a World Series-winning club, and that point was proven in 1992 and '93.

Leyland? How is he even in consideration for anything? Managing for a long time is meaningless in regards to the HOF without some more pennants or rings. I don't want to hear mention of any of these other managers when they are still seemingly shunning anything to do with Billy Martin getting in. I don't love or hate Martin, but he's been overlooked far too long.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by BillyCoxDodgers3B

Even as a Canadian, I'm perfectly against Gaston getting in. Those teams were plied with ringers brought in for a season or two then sold off. Never cared for those Jays teams. With enough money and desire, anyone can buy a World Series-winning club, and that point was proven in 1992 and '93.

Leyland? How is he even in consideration for anything? Managing for a long time is meaningless in regards to the HOF without some more pennants or rings. I don't want to hear mention of any of these other managers when they are still seemingly shunning anything to do with Billy Martin getting in. I don't love or hate Martin, but he's been overlooked far too long.

Martin should be in for pulling Reggie from right field in the middle of an inning on national TV and then being fully prepared to fight him in the dugout.

[mainemule]

On the subject of potential future GMs to be elected, as has been discussed, Theo is virtually a lock. I'm not sold on Cashman but he'll certainly merit some consideration.

I think Dave Dombrowski has the credentials having built 4 franchises that made WS (with 2 championships) and he certainly has a shot to win with a 3rd.

Who else GM wise is in the mix?

[BioCRN]

Originally Posted by mainemule

Who else GM wise is in the mix?

Though his role in uniquely weaponizing stats in the game may be a bit overblown, Billy Beane is viewed as a unique visionary with a record of success and the face of a sea change in how teams look to construct their organization.

They even made a movie about the dude. He's had a rather low-profile career for quite a while, but he's still a high-end baseball executive.

[mainemule]

Originally Posted by BioCRN

Though his role in uniquely weaponizing stats in the game may be a bit overblown, Billy Beane is viewed as a unique visionary with a record of success and the face of a sea change in how teams look to construct their organization.

They even made a movie about the dude. He's had a rather low-profile career for quite a while, but he's still a high-end baseball executive.

Thought about him for sure. Too bad he never got A's to even one WS.

[FrankWakefield]

Golly... let's be against Bill White for something he didn't do?

He was NL president for 5 years. He wanted to see an increase in the number of black baseball executives, I guess that's what he didn't do.

I'm not the oldest here, nor among the most well read. (Just typing that has me missing Barry Sloate.) But I do recall AL umpires with that odd shaped bit of more mattress make shift chest protector thing that AL umpires used (I think it was invented by an AL umpire.) And AL umpires had those wine colored jackets at some points... seems to me that high strikes and curve balls were called differently in the two leagues. There were differences between the leagues. Bill White was busy, working on and helping with the unification and standardization of the two leagues. Baseball... tradition, that's something we like about baseball. NOT the changes. But we eventually accept the changes. The unification of the AL and NL offices was going against the traditional grain of baseball. (which years did Topps have individual cards for the AL and NL league presidents???) Baseball, generally, is resilient to change. From the present vantage point, I now think that change was a good thing. Baseball's biggest change involved Jackie Robinson. Bill White was the second black player to play in the Carolina League. The NL went to the DH. The bases are bigger. Pitch Clock. Lights at Wrigley. Players stopped leaving gloves on the field as they ran in to bat. Changes.

I agree, Bill White didn't get the front offices in Baseball to increase minorities in those jobs. We collectors didn't get that done, either. I still think that William Dekova White (I remember the entire name from having read about him, and others, in a 1964 Cardinals yearbook, that Dad brought home from a game we attended that year) is a strong and deserving candidate among those listed for consideration. White was with Yogi Berra and Pee Wee Reese in getting Phil Rizzuto into the Hall, I think that was a good move.


Joe West... 4 or 5 years ago there was a study done that said that West missed on just over 20 calls a game when behind the plate. He was an umpire for a long time. He may well have made more bad calls than any other umpire, ever. You could look it up, if you had ok eyesight. I liked Dutch Rennert. Chris Pelekoudas, Doug Harvey, Frank Secory (a south paw), Augie Donatelli... those were the names I'd here when listening to ball games late at night.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by FrankWakefield

Golly... let's be against Bill White for something he didn't do?

He was NL president for 5 years. He wanted to see an increase in the number of black baseball executives, I guess that's what he didn't do.

I'm not the oldest here, nor among the most well read. (Just typing that has me missing Barry Sloate.) But I do recall AL umpires with that odd shaped bit of more mattress make shift chest protector thing that AL umpires used (I think it was invented by an AL umpire.) And AL umpires had those wine colored jackets at some points... seems to me that high strikes and curve balls were called differently in the two leagues. There were differences between the leagues. Bill White was busy, working on and helping with the unification and standardization of the two leagues. Baseball... tradition, that's something we like about baseball. NOT the changes. But we eventually accept the changes. The unification of the AL and NL offices was going against the traditional grain of baseball. (which years did Topps have individual cards for the AL and NL league presidents???) Baseball, generally, is resilient to change. From the present vantage point, I now think that change was a good thing. Baseball's biggest change involved Jackie Robinson. Bill White was the second black player to play in the Carolina League. The NL went to the DH. The bases are bigger. Pitch Clock. Lights at Wrigley. Players stopped leaving gloves on the field as they ran in to bat. Changes.

I agree, Bill White didn't get the front offices in Baseball to increase minorities in those jobs. We collectors didn't get that done, either. I still think that William Dekova White (I remember the entire name from having read about him, and others, in a 1964 Cardinals yearbook, that Dad brought home from a game we attended that year) is a strong and deserving candidate among those listed for consideration. White was with Yogi Berra and Pee Wee Reese in getting Phil Rizzuto into the Hall, I think that was a good move.


Joe West... 4 or 5 years ago there was a study done that said that West missed on just over 20 calls a game when behind the plate. He was an umpire for a long time. He may well have made more bad calls than any other umpire, ever. You could look it up, if you had ok eyesight. I liked Dutch Rennert. Chris Pelekoudas, Doug Harvey, Frank Secory (a south paw), Augie Donatelli... those were the names I'd here when listening to ball games late at night.

It's not what he didn't do, it's that nobody can identify any merit-based hall of fame level achievements of his that he did do.

[dgo71]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

I'd put Froemming in long before West.

I was very surprised that Froemming's name was not on the ballot, especially when considering Eddie Montague made the cut. Nothing against Montague, a fine umpire in his own right, but a distant second to Froemming in my mind. I would much rather have seen Froemming on this ballot over Cito Gaston. I find it a little weird that they elect umpires in the first place, but since that road's been paved, leaving off the name of one of the best to ever do it is a puzzling move.

I kind of expected West to be in the conversation. Love him or hate him, his longevity will get him in. If evaluating managers is tough, evaluating the HOF chances of umpires is even tougher, but I think it mostly comes down to longevity and postseasons, and West has those. I'm not really advocating for his induction, but I get why he's on the ballot, and why he will most likely get in, if not this time then the next time umpires are considered.

[JustinD]

Originally Posted by The Detroit Collector

Biased opinion, but I want Jim in.

I can't see it as a Tiger's diehard.

I spent several a night post game with him and the coaching staff at Ye Olde Saloon in Royal Oak. They would come in and drink a few while Jim stepped outside every 30 minutes for a smoke. The man is a super nice guy and as a person I have not a single bad thing to say about him. He will chat with anyone that sits next to him.

Jim himself out of the picture, the actual post season work he did on the Tigs was rough. He was a regular season manager and couldn't plan a WS game for much. There are a few years there in which he had possibly one of the greatest starting pitching staffs in modern baseball (relievers/closers were sometimes questionable). He needed to clean up his hitting coaches and never did. It was just post-season failures one after another.

A great guy, but not HOF. Not a fan of any on that list, but it is now the Hall of pretty decent nice guys...so with that qualification who knows?

[packs]

Originally Posted by mainemule

On the subject of potential future GMs to be elected, as has been discussed, Theo is virtually a lock. I'm not sold on Cashman but he'll certainly merit some consideration.

I think Dave Dombrowski has the credentials having built 4 franchises that made WS (with 2 championships) and he certainly has a shot to win with a 3rd.

Who else GM wise is in the mix?

If Cashman got in but Gene Michael is not even considered it would be a crime. Cashman took over at the right time but all those championships were won by Gene Michael.

[mainemule]

Originally Posted by packs

If Cashman got in but Gene Michael is not even considered it would be a crime. Cashman took over at the right time but all those championships were won by Gene Michael.

....on a similar/related notion, it would seem, love-him-or-hate-him, George Steinbrenner should be selected as an owner.

[scotgreb]

Congratulations to Jim Leyland . . .

img606.jpg

[G1911]

15 out of 16 votes. Piniella 1 vote shy, White 2 shy.

This has got to be the worst ballot a vets type committee has ever considered.

[scotgreb]

Originally Posted by G1911

This has got to be the worst ballot a vets type committee has ever considered.

I couldn't agree more. I'm not sure Leyland is worthy but probably the best from that cruddy ballot.

[insidethewrapper]

It's who you know. I think Joe Torre was on the committee ( a good friend).

Record of 1,769–1,728 as a manager. Just a tab over 50%. He has been a baseball man all his life, a HOF now.

IN 2 World Series for Detroit they were 1-8, with Verlander, Scherzer,Porcello as starters and Cabrera in his prime.

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

What did Leyland do to deserve that? Wow, a whole ONE World Series title in 22 seasons. This is pitiful.

Heck, put Danny Murtaugh in before this guy.

[BioCRN]

Leyland is very well liked in the baseball world...players, executives, and writers.

Purity tests for HOF'rs aside, being well liked is a big plus when it comes time to vote.

I find him a boring pick, but I don't find the pick unsurprising.

[mainemule]

Originally Posted by BillyCoxDodgers3B

What did Leyland do to deserve that? Wow, a whole ONE World Series title in 22 seasons. This is pitiful.

Guess nobody has ever heard of Billy Martin. Heck, put Danny Murtaugh in before this guy.

* Bochy, Baker and Francona will be elected as managers

I needed to look this up as to me post-season means a lot for managers:

Murtaugh/Gaston/Tom Kelly 2 Pennants- 2 WS
Houk 3 Pennants- 2 WS
Leyland 3 Pennants- 1 WS
Martin 2 Pennants- 1 WS
Piniella 1 Pennant- 1 WS

For managers, 3 titles is automatic, 2 and either another pennant or lots of wins usually gets you in. Houk certainly an outlier due to great NYY teams. Bill Carrigan other 2 timer not in.

The 3 pennants separate Leyland and he had some terrific Tigers teams that came up short.

Houk and Charlie Grim look to be only 3 time pennant winners not elected. Grimm has no titles.

EDIT- as HOF speculator I have the attached......

[G1911]

The odds of a corrupt result when you have a voting body of 16 insiders in a closed session is extremely high.

This format is a horrible idea if the intent is any kind of an honest outcome. The writers process has its issues but there are few corrupt choices from that process.

[jayshum]

I have to admit to being happy Joe West didn't come close to getting in. He was part of the group that received less than 5 votes.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Get rid of these Committees. Too much cronyism. Need a much broader base of voters.

[mainemule]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Get rid of these Committees. Too much cronyism. Need a much broader base of voters.

I agree.....what about giving all HOFers a vote? Still need 75%.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by mainemule

I agree.....what about giving all HOFers a vote? Still need 75%.

Or a diverse group selected from different constituencies.

[ejharrington]

Originally Posted by jayshum

I have to admit to being happy Joe West didn't come close to getting in. He was part of the group that received less than 5 votes.

100% agree

[paul]

I believe the HOF tried giving all living members a vote for a few years. No one got elected, so they changed the system.

[brianp-beme]

I think baseball card cutup artists have severely dwindled the supply of early Jim Leyland cards from the late 1980's when fashioning under eye shadows and ear canals in their artwork.

Brian (now I have to dig out one of my 1987 Topps of him before I absentmindedly send it off to the art scissor underworld )

[nwfsteve]

Bochum has five pennants and four WS. He will be a lock. A couple posts earlier shortchanged him. I listened to every game White did for years with the Yankees. We had a running joke the way he’d call games. “Line drive to right… check that - grounder to second.” “Deep to center (voice rises). That ball is .. caught on the outfield grass.” I thought he’d get in and I was OK with that.

[jingram058]

Originally Posted by mainemule

....on a similar/related notion, it would seem, love-him-or-hate-him, George Steinbrenner should be selected as an owner.

Could not agree more. He wanted the Indians, but CBS had to let the Yankees go. He said he would return them to glory and did so. Went through a rough stretch and then did it again. Even when they weren't winning the WS they were for the most part competitive.