Show-n-Tell which Tobacco cards you have are your favorites, post as many as you like

[dstudeba]

Great Cards Val!

Also nice to see so many Monos in this thread.

Patrick - Love the Old Mill cabinet!

[ValKehl]

Phil & Dan, thanks for the kind words.

[Aaron Seefeldt]

The red portrait Piedmont 42 is my wife’s. She bought it a few years ago. I just acquired the Bat Off Piedmont 42 recently and now the red portrait has a pal to hang out with in our bank box

[tedzan]

In his book titled "Inside T206", Scot Reader identifies the 6 guys displayed here as the " SUPER-PRINTS "
Scot Reader's excellent research revealed that these six subjects were printed in greater quantities (and with more Tobacco brands) than any other
T206 subjects in the set.
These 6 subjects fascinate me, simply because American Lithographic (ALC) introduced a new Series in the T206 print runs....the 350/460 Series.
ALC selected from the 350-only Series these six subjects, which they printed with SOVEREIGN 460 backs during the printing phase of the 460-only
Series cards.
Please note that the SOVEREIGN 460 versions of these 6 subjects are very tough to find relative to the regular subjects in the 460-only Series.

Shown here are the Six Super-Prints with their SOVEREIGN 350 backs and their SOVEREIGN 460 backs......

The Red Cobb with the SOVEREIGN 460 back is very, very tough to find.

.


-------


............





TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[brianp-beme]

Here are a couple of group shots, first some portrait T206 cards with red and orange backgrounds, and then some portraits in the 1910/11 Obak sets. The players don't have to be superstars...great looking tobacco cards of non-HOF players are pretty special too.

Brian

[DixieBaseball]

My favorite to collect over the years has been the exceptionally rare and paper thin T206, ur, I mean T213-1 Coupon’s. Especially the Southern Leaguers!

[tedzan]

Hey Jeremy......you got to love those 1910 COUPON cards. I have 25% of the set; however, there is no way that I will ever complete this set.
But, it's the thrill of the hunt that really fascinates me about these seldom seen mysterious tobacco cards.


Here are the six T206 Super Prints with the 1910 COUPON advertisement.




I recently sold my Chance to a good buddy on Net54 who is working on the ultimate Chance run.













TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[DixieBaseball]

Thanks Ted! I love those Coupon Type 1's as well! Coincidentally, 80% of the Southern League Type 1 Coupons are For Sale in current REA Auction. (16 of 20). That would be a Big step toward your completion of the Coupon Type 1's! Some of the Highest Graded examples known as well!!

[Touch'EmAll]

A cornerstone of the collection - purchased years ago right here on Net54.

[qed2190]

This is my only Coupon. The McGraw in the middle

[DixieBaseball]

More of my Favorites... Type 1 T213 Coupon Tobacco cards. Extremely rare and paper thin. (Hold a raw one in your hand and it's a wonder they survived) Perhaps, one day they will be recognized as a part of T206 catalog brand of tobacco brands....

[t206kid]

Fun thread! Here is a colorful type 2

[t213]

I love seeing all the T213-1s! Here are more Monos.

[t206blogcom]

[BabyRuth]

Tobacco is great in a corn Cobb pipe!

[tedzan]

The red HINDU backs are my 3rd favorite T206 brands. American Lithographic printed red HINDU backs on 47 subjects in the T206 set.
The 35 subjects in the 350/460 Series with HINDU are quite scarce. However, the 12 subjects in the 460-only Series are relatively easy
to find. I proved this, by concentrating on a run of of these 12. In less than 2 months, I acquired 11 of the 12. The Sheckard card, though
took almost a year to acquire.


Here are the Exclusive 12 in the 460-only Series............



.




.




. . . . . .





.



TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by tedzan

The red HINDU backs are my 3rd favorite T206 brands. American Lithographic printed red HINDU backs on 47 subjects in the T206 set.

TED Z

T206 Reference
.

To my knowledge there are only 44 confirmed Red Hindu's.

[tedzan]

Hey guys,

American Lithographic printed 35 subjects in the 350/460 Series simultaneously with the red HINDU
and SWEET CAPORAL 350-460 Factory #42 backs.

On a separate sheet American Litho printed 12 subjects from the 460-only Series with the red HINDU
and SWEET CAPORAL 350-460 Factory #42 backs.





350/460 Series Checklist.…...35 subjects

Ames (hands over head) ..……………..*
Baker
Bender (no trees)
M. Brown (Chicago)
Chance (portrait-yellow}
Chase (portrait-blue)
Chase (dark cap)
Cobb (portrait-red)
Davis (A's)
Donlin (bat)
Doolan (bat)
Dougherty (arm in air)
Downey (bat)
Larry Doyle (bat)
Elberfeld (Washington-fielding)
Evers (Chicago-yellow sky)
Griffith (bat)
Johnson (pitching)
Joss (pitching)
Kleinow (Boston)

Konetchy (glove low)
Magee (bat)
Mathewson (dark cap) ....……………….*
McIntyre (Brooklyn & Chicago)
Murphy (batting)
O'Leary (hands on knees)
Reulbach (no glove) ......………………..*
Rucker (throwing)
Seymour (throwing)
Snodgrass (catching)
Stahl (glove)
Street (fielding)
Sweeney (fielding)
Willis (throwing)
CYoung (glove)

Note..... * These subjects have yet to be confirmed with the red HINDU back.

In recent years, Dougherty, Joss, and Murphy have been discovered with Red HINDU backs; therefore,
I fully expect Ames, Matty, and Reulbach will eventually be confirmed.

If anyone on this forum is willing to make a bet on this ? I will give them 2 to 1 odds that these 3 guys
will be discovered.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[Pat R]

What kind of bet is that it's a no win for anyone taking it. You can't prove that they weren't printed it could be ten years later with none of them
discovered and you could just say they were printed but none have showed up yet. There hasn't been a new Red Hindu confirmation in 7 years.

I could say Honus Wagner was printed with a Sovereign 150 back but it's so rare one hasn't showed up yet.

[tedzan]

Hey Guys,

Circa 2010 on Net54, I presented my theory regarding the "split-personality" of the T206 350/460 Series cards in their latter print runs (Winter 1910 to
Spring 1911). Group A comprising of 35 subjects. Group B comprising of 28 subjects. And, this theory has withstood the test of time.

In 2010......Ames, Dougherty, Mathewson, Murphy and Reulbach had NOT yet been confirmed with the red HINDU back. Back then, I predicted that these
5 guys would eventually be discovered with red HINDU backs. Subsequently, Dougherty and Murphy were discovered. The other 3 remain to be seen.

Here is a record of one of my predictions....that of Danny Murphy (batting) will be discovered with a red HINDU back......

Dated 4-19-2010

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

Thanks Ted, my one and only...but as Leon often says if you're only going to have one why not this one.

But what I really want is a Cobb Red Port with Red Hindu back..

All joking aside love to find out if a Danny Murphy batting is out there...

Originally Posted by tedzan

JOHN

I guarantee that eventually this card will be found. It is currently lying low due to the capricious whims
of the The Monster

TED Z

Look guys.....I try to inform, educate, or simply encourage thought regarding the complexities of the T206 set. I really appreciate all your
positive responses, phone calls, emails, etc. since 2005. But, there are one (or 2) on this forum that get their kicks playing the "negative"
game. And, I have tried (more or less) to play the tolerance game in dealing with their comments.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Hey guys,

American Lithographic printed 35 subjects in the 350/460 Series simultaneously with the red HINDU
and SWEET CAPORAL 350-460 Factory #42 backs.

On a separate sheet American Litho printed 12 subjects from the 460-only Series with the red HINDU
and SWEET CAPORAL 350-460 Factory #42 backs.





350/460 Series Checklist.…...35 subjects

Ames (hands over head) ..……………..*
Baker
Bender (no trees)
M. Brown (Chicago)
Chance (portrait-yellow}
Chase (portrait-blue)
Chase (dark cap)
Cobb (portrait-red)
Davis (A's)
Donlin (bat)
Doolan (bat)
Dougherty (arm in air)
Downey (bat)
Larry Doyle (bat)
Elberfeld (Washington-fielding)
Evers (Chicago-yellow sky)
Griffith (bat)
Johnson (pitching)
Joss (pitching)
Kleinow (Boston)

Konetchy (glove low)
Magee (bat)
Mathewson (dark cap) ....……………….*
McIntyre (Brooklyn & Chicago)
Murphy (batting)
O'Leary (hands on knees)
Reulbach (no glove) ......………………..*
Rucker (throwing)
Seymour (throwing)
Snodgrass (catching)
Stahl (glove)
Street (fielding)
Sweeney (fielding)
Willis (throwing)
CYoung (glove)

Note..... * These subjects have yet to be confirmed with the red HINDU back.

In recent years, Dougherty, Joss, and Murphy have been discovered with Red HINDU backs; therefore,
I fully expect Ames, Matty, and Reulbach will eventually be confirmed.

If anyone on this forum is willing to make a bet on this ? I will give them 2 to 1 odds that these 3 guys
will be discovered.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Originally Posted by tedzan

Hey Guys,

Circa 2010 on Net54, I presented my theory regarding the "split-personality" of the T206 350/460 Series cards in their latter print runs (Winter 1910 to
Spring 1911). Group A comprising of 35 subjects. Group B comprising of 28 subjects. And, this theory has withstood the test of time.

In 2010......Ames, Dougherty, Mathewson, Murphy and Reulbach had NOT yet been confirmed with the red HINDU back. Back then, I predicted that these
5 guys would eventually be discovered with red HINDU backs. Subsequently, Dougherty and Murphy were discovered. The other 3 remain to be seen.

Here is a record of one of my predictions....that of Danny Murphy (batting) will be discovered with a red HINDU back......

Dated 4-19-2020






Look guys.....I try to inform, educate, or simply encourage thought regarding the complexities of the T206 set. I really appreciate all your
positive responses, phone calls, emails, etc. since 2005. But, there are one (or 2) on this forum that get their kicks playing the "negative"
game. And, I have tried (more or less) to play the tolerance game in dealing with their comments.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

It's funny how many times you use the negative game comment Ted. It's not a negative game I just find it a little offensive when you state your opinion
as fact. I'm not saying the three subjects you pointed out weren't printed with a Red Hindu but anyone who follows the t206 set closely knows there
are many inconsistences in the set and you can't assume anything.

Your Murphy prediction date should be 4-19-2010.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Pat R

It's funny how many times you use the negative game comment Ted. It's not a negative game I just find it a little offensive when you state your opinion
as fact. I'm not saying the three subjects you pointed out weren't printed with a Red Hindu but anyone who follows the t206 set closely knows there
are many inconsistences in the set and you can't assume anything.

Your Murphy prediction date should be 4-19-2010.

Pat

My research indicates that the printing of the various T206 series from the Summer of 1910 to the Spring of 1911 have very few "inconsistences".
In fact, there are definite logical patterns in the printing process during that period. These patterns are addressed in.... T206 Reference

Thanks for bringing it to my attention, that I typed the date "2020", instead of "2010" in my prior post. It has been corrected.


TED Z
.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Pat

My research indicates that the printing of the various T206 series from the Summer of 1910 to the Spring of 1911 have very few "inconsistences".
In fact, there are definite logical patterns in the printing process during that period. These patterns are addressed in.... T206 Reference

Thanks for bringing it to my attention, that I typed the date "2020", instead of "2010" in my prior post. It has been corrected.

TED Z
.

I agree there are patterns in the printing during that time period just as there are patterns through out the set but there are still some inconsistences.
There may be fewer in the 350/460 and 460 only printings but one factor is that those two series only account for 1/5 of the set.



In the same thread you predicted the Murphy Red Hindu you also posted this

Originally Posted by tedzan

Hey Jeff L......et al

By my count, the blue Chase even beats out the Red Cobb with respect to the number of different backs.
The blue Chase has been confirmed with 22 different T206 backs.....it includes BROAD LEAF 350, LENOX,
and Red HINDU.
I expect that it will be found with a BROAD LEAF 460 back and a DRUM back.

Chase was NOT printed with AMERICAN BEAUTY 460, nor UZIT.


The Red Cobb has been confirmed with 22 different T206 backs......it includes BROAD LEAF 460, DRUM,
and LENOX.
I do not expect it to be found with anymore T206 backs.

Cobb was NOT printed with AMERICAN BEAUTY 460, nor Red HINDU, nor UZIT.


TED Z

[DixieBaseball]

Speaking of T206 inconsistencies from 1909-11, there are many folks out there that believe the T213-1 Coupon's should be part of the T206 collection of various Tobacco backs. 1910, Tobacco back, exact same design as the rest of the T206 tobacco backs, with only 1 slight variation (sorta like an American Beauty which is cut narrower in width, only the Coupon is cut narrower in depth) Cough, cough.... I digress - Love these Uber rare rascals!

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by DixieBaseball

Speaking of T206 inconsistencies from 1909-11, there are many folks out there that believe the T213-1 Coupon's should be part of the T206 collection of various Tobacco backs. 1910, Tobacco back, exact same design as the rest of the T206 tobacco backs, with only 1 slight variation (sorta like an American Beauty which is cut narrower in width, only the Coupon is cut narrower in depth) Cough, cough.... I digress - Love these Uber rare rascals!

Hi Jeremy

You and I (and some T206 collectors on this forum) agree that the 1910 COUPON cards should be included in the family of the T206 tobacco brands.

The ones who disagree with us are unaware that these cards were NOT meant to be "stiffiners" in cigarette packs. The initial offering of the COUPON
cigarettes was in rectangular cartons containing 200 (or more) loose cigarettes.....circa 1909 - 1910).
Many of the cards were inserted in these cartons, while others were pasted on the outside of the carton. Hence, the paper loss on the backs of some
of these cards (e.g. my Cobb).]

.



Further proof of this is evident on my Doolan card which has cardboard residue on it from being pasted on a cigarette carton.

.




Whatever, here is my nicest 1910 COUPON card. If I am lucky, the stupid TPG's will probably grade it only a "2" (or perhaps a "1.5").

.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[DeanH3]

Wouldn't mind adding a T205 WaJo and Matty in the future.



T206's are just too addictive. lol!

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by DixieBaseball

Speaking of T206 inconsistencies from 1909-11, there are many folks out there that believe the T213-1 Coupon's should be part of the T206 collection of various Tobacco backs. 1910, Tobacco back, exact same design as the rest of the T206 tobacco backs, with only 1 slight variation (sorta like an American Beauty which is cut narrower in width, only the Coupon is cut narrower in depth) Cough, cough.... I digress - Love these Uber rare rascals!

Originally Posted by tedzan

Hi Jeremy

You and I (and some T206 collectors on this forum) agree that the 1910 COUPON cards should be included in the family of the T206 tobacco brands.

The ones who disagree with us are unaware that these cards were NOT meant to be "stiffiners" in cigarette packs. The initial offering of the COUPON
cigarettes was in rectangular cartons containing 200 (or more) loose cigarettes.....circa 1909 - 1910).
Many of the cards were inserted in these cartons, while others were pasted on the outside of the carton. Hence, the paper loss on the backs of some
of these cards (e.g. my Cobb).]

.



Further proof of this is evident on my Doolan card which has cardboard residue on it from being pasted on a cigarette carton.

.




Whatever, here is my nicest 1910 COUPON card. If I am lucky, the stupid TPG's will probably grade it only a "2" (or perhaps a "1.5").

.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Here's something to consider concerning the T213's. The original American Lithograph journal that was discovered covers the years of 1909-1912.
In the journal it has instructions on what to insert in the cigarette packs and cartons. There are 45 brands in the journal including all the t206 brands
Coupon cigarettes isn't included in the 45 brands in the ALC journal.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by DixieBaseball

Thanks Ted! I love those Coupon Type 1's as well! Coincidentally, 80% of the Southern League Type 1 Coupons are For Sale in current REA Auction. (16 of 20). That would be a Big step toward your completion of the Coupon Type 1's! Some of the Highest Graded examples known as well!!

Jeremy

I have already bid on all your Southern Leaguers, and I will be checking them out when the auction ends this weekend.

It's quite interesting that the majority of 1910 COUPON cards are graded "1" or "2". My Matty is a "2"....but, in my opinion it deserves a "3".





TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[Pat R]

For a few reasons I have always thought the t213-1's were printed after they stopped printing the t206's. If they were printed at the same time why would they use a different cardboard stock, I know they're rare but if they were printed at the same time why wouldn't we see a couple of T213's that were printed on the thicker stock by mistake or t206's on the thinner stock printed by mistake. There have also been many finds that have a mix of a few scarce backs like Broad Leaf and Lenox but I don't recall any that had t213's.

I think the ledger pages from the journal might be the best evidence that they were printed later. The dates are from early 1909 to 1912 and after making a list I found there are 35 different cigarette brands in the journal. There are 45 on the index page but 10 of them are repeats of the same brand. All of the t206 cigarette brands have a ledger page with instruction on how many cards to insert in the packs and cartons. Coupon cigarettes isn't in the journal anywhere.

img399.jpg

img400.jpg

img401.jpg

[tedzan]

Pat

We have discussed this 1910 COUPON situation numerous times before on this forum. Apparently, some people did NOT get the message.

Here is the most noteworthy evidence which proves this issue was PRINTED and ISSUED circa Spring/Summer 1910.
And, there is more evidence that I can present, but I'll spare it for now.

First, I will illustrate the printing factor with this picture. The similarity of the design of these five backs absolutely fixes the date to no later
than the Summer of 1910.






2nd......

Originally Posted by tedzan

Hi Jeremy

You and I (and some T206 collectors on this forum) agree that the 1910 COUPON cards should be included in the family of the T206 tobacco brands.

The ones who disagree with us are unaware that these cards were NOT meant to be "stiffiners" in cigarette packs. The INITIAL OFFERING of the COUPON
cigarettes was in rectangular cartons containing 200 (or more) loose cigarettes. Newspaper clippings (dated 1909 - 1910) introducing this new ATC brand.

Many of the cards were inserted in these cartons, while others were pasted on the outside of the carton. Hence, the paper loss on the backs of some
of these cards (e.g. my Cobb).

.




Further proof of this is evident on my Doolan card which has cardboard residue on it from being pasted on a cigarette carton.

.

Folks....if the above info does not convince you of the 1910 date, then stay tuned for more proof.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[Pat R]

Hmmm ok Ted let me see if I have this right. Because they used a similar back design that pinpoints the date to 1910 over an original American Lithograph journal
that covers all the tobacco cards issued from 1909-1912. That makes about as much sense as when you suggested the t206 fronts were laminated
on pre printed backs.

[tedzan]

Pat

If you do NOT see the stylistic similarity of the design of these 5 backs indicating that they were printed during the Summer 1910 timeline,
then you have no appreciation for the operation at American Lithographic's art department. These designs were simultaneously printed in
the Spring/Summer of 1910. The same was true with another stylistic back design during the 350-only Series (CAROLINA BRIGHTS).






Furthermore,
This information is derived from an ATC journal regarding the May 1911 DIVESTURE ACT, which broke up American Tobacco Company's
monopoly.

Liggett & Myers was given about 28 per cent of the cigarette market:

Piedmont
Fatima
American Beauty
Home Run
Imperiales
COUPON
King Bee
Fatima

P. Lorillard received 15 per cent of the nation's business:

Helmar
Egyptian Deities
Turkish Trophies
Murad
Mogul
and all straight Turkish brands

American Tobacco retained 37 per cent of the market:

Pall Mall
Sweet Caporal
Hassan
Mecca


Note that the COUPON brand is assigned to L & M.....proving to us that it was in the marketplace during 1910.
Newspaper clippings (circa 1909) exist which inform us this new ATC brand was being introduced.


THAT'S ALL FOLKS, CASE IS CLOSED !


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Pat

If you do NOT see the stylistic similarity of the design of these 5 backs indicating that they were printed during the Summer 1910 timeline,
then you have no appreciation for the operation at American Lithographic's art department. These designs were simultaneously printed in
the Spring/Summer of 1910. The same was true with another stylistic back design during the 350-only Series (CAROLINA BRIGHTS).






Furthermore,
This information is derived from an ATC journal regarding the May 1911 DIVESTURE ACT, which broke up American Tobacco Company's
monopoly.

Liggett & Myers was given about 28 per cent of the cigarette market:

Piedmont
Fatima
American Beauty
Home Run
Imperiales
COUPON
King Bee
Fatima

P. Lorillard received 15 per cent of the nation's business:

Helmar
Egyptian Deities
Turkish Trophies
Murad
Mogul
and all straight Turkish brands

American Tobacco retained 37 per cent of the market:

Pall Mall
Sweet Caporal
Hassan
Mecca


Note that the COUPON brand is assigned to L & M.....proving to us that it was in the marketplace during 1910.
Newspaper clippings (circa 1909) exist which inform us this new ATC brand was being introduced.


THAT'S ALL FOLKS, CASE IS CLOSED !


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

How does any of this prove the t213-1's were printed in1910?

In a previous thread about them you and Jeremy both claimed the 1910 date came from a newspaper ad and that Jeremy had the ad.
After days of saying he was going to dig out the ad he admitted he had mistaken it for an Old Mill or Hindu ad.


I have two questions for you. Have you looked at the ALC journal?
If the t213-1's were printed with the t206's why aren't they in the journal?

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Pat R

How does any of this prove the t213-1's were printed in1910?

In a previous thread about them you and Jeremy both claimed the 1910 date came from a newspaper ad and that Jeremy had the ad.
After days of saying he was going to dig out the ad he admitted he had mistaken it for an Old Mill or Hindu ad.

I DID NOT SAY ANYTHING ABOUT A NEWSPAPER ADV. !

I referred to Newspaper clippings (circa 1909-1910) announcing that ATC was introducing a new Tobacco brand, labelled COUPON.

It's bad enough that you constantly try to "trash" anything I present on Net54, but now you are "busting" Jeremy. I do feel sorry for you !

Originally Posted by Pat R

I have two questions for you. Have you looked at the ALC journal ?
If the t213-1's were printed with the t206's why aren't they in the journal?

What ALC journal are you referring to ? ?

And, your 2nd ? here doesn't make any sense.

Here is my simulated 48-card sheet comprising of the Major League subjects in the 1910 COUPON set. My educated guess is: this represents a 350-only series
sheet which American Lithographic (ALC) "borrowed " to print the 1910 COUPON cards approx. in the same timeframe (Spring/Summer 1910) that ALC printed
these T206's with PIEDMONT, SWEET CAP, SOVEREIGN, etc. backs

To my Engineering thinking mind that makes logical sense to me.


1910 COUPON (T213-1) Major League 48 subjects






TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[brianp-beme]

Here's my only T213-1 Coupon, and it qualifies as one of my favorites, even if it is obviously in rough shape. In fact I'm surprised any of these T213-1 cards survived in nicer shape than mine...they are thin! In fact, it is so thin and fragile, I decided against removing it from the sleeve when I scanned it.

Brian

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by tedzan

I DID NOT SAY ANYTHING ABOUT A NEWSPAPER ADV. !

I referred to Newspaper clippings (circa 1909-1910) announcing that ATC was introducing a new Tobacco brand, labelled COUPON.

It's bad enough that you constantly try to "trash" anything I present on Net54, but now you are "busting" Jeremy. I do feel sorry for you !




What ALC journal are you referring to ? ?

And, your 2nd ? here doesn't make any sense.

Here is my simulated 48-card sheet comprising of the Major League subjects in the 1910 COUPON set. My educated guess is: this represents a 350-only series
sheet which American Lithographic (ALC) "borrowed " to print the 1910 COUPON cards approx. in the same timeframe (Spring/Summer 1910) that ALC printed
these T206's with PIEDMONT, SWEET CAP, SOVEREIGN, etc. backs

To my Engineering thinking mind that makes logical sense to me.


1910 COUPON (T213-1) Major League 48 subjects






TED Z

T206 Reference
.

It's actually an original ATC journal with ledger pages from 1909-1912.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by tedzan

I DID NOT SAY ANYTHING ABOUT A NEWSPAPER ADV. !

I referred to Newspaper clippings (circa 1909-1910) announcing that ATC was introducing a new Tobacco brand, labelled COUPON.

It's bad enough that you constantly try to "trash" anything I present on Net54, but now you are "busting" Jeremy. I do feel sorry for you !




What ALC journal are you referring to ? ?

And, your 2nd ? here doesn't make any sense.

Here is my simulated 48-card sheet comprising of the Major League subjects in the 1910 COUPON set. My educated guess is: this represents a 350-only series
sheet which American Lithographic (ALC) "borrowed " to print the 1910 COUPON cards approx. in the same timeframe (Spring/Summer 1910) that ALC printed
these T206's with PIEDMONT, SWEET CAP, SOVEREIGN, etc. backs

To my Engineering thinking mind that makes logical sense to me.


1910 COUPON (T213-1) Major League 48 subjects






TED Z

T206 Reference
.

I'm not "busting" on anyone I'm stating true facts from a previous thread.
At the time you and I were emailing about the ad Jeremy said he had and
you said to give him time to dig it out that he was busy.

Originally Posted by tedzan

Pat
1st.....Here is exactly what I said in the 1st post in this thread...…..



Pat....do notice that I stated...."Such a cigarette carton"

This particular carton which Jeremy posted in his thread some years ago contained COUPON cigarettes manufactured in 1913 - 1919. And, if cards were enclosed in this type of carton,
they would have been either T213-2 or T213-3.

This we know for sure, since the LIGGETT & MYERS TOBACCO CO. logo is printed on it.


The ATC divesture (circa June 1911) resulted in the following manner…………

LIGGETT & MYERS was given about 28 per cent of the cigarette market:

Coupon
Piedmont
Fatima
American Beauty
Home Run
Imperiales
King Bee
Fatima (the only 15 Turkish blend
and the cheap straight domestic brands.

P. LORILLARD received 15 per cent of the nation's business:

Helmar
Egyptian Deities
Turkish Trophies
Murad
Mogul
and all straight Turkish brands

AMERICAN TOBACCO CO. retained 37 per cent of the market:

Sweet Caporal
Hassan
Mecca
Pall Mall, its expensive all-Turkish brand, named for a fashionable London street in the 18th century where "pall-mall" (a precursor to croquet) was played.

R. J. REYNOLDS received no cigarette line but was awarded 20 per cent of the plug trade.



2nd....." and can you answer the question of where the 1910 date for the type 1 comes from."

Approx 10 years ago, Louisiana Newspaper clippings (1909 or 1910) were posted in a Net54 thread introducing the new ATC tobacco brand, COUPON.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Originally Posted by tedzan

That's the 1908 Times Picayune article which I referred to regarding the "COUPON" Cigarettes brand. I knew you would find it.

Come on Pat, this is silly...."but it doesn't say anything about baseball pictures.".

T206's were not issued until approx. a year later (circa Spring/Summer 1909).

Anyway, thanks for finding this Newspaper article.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Originally Posted by Pat R

That's my point Ted I asked where the 1910 dating of the T213-1's came from and
you said a newspaper clipping if that's not the case then where did that information
come from?

Originally Posted by Leon

Maybe, Like many other things, it came from conjecture not fact. When I started quoting Burdick all I got in response was some old hobbyists said "this and that." I say if we are going to have a good debate we should base it on facts not what someone might have said a long time ago.

[QUOTE=DixieBaseball;1842495]LOL...

The 20 Southern Leaguer's are not included in the Type 2 or Type 3 Set. That is one glaring difference in the the Type 1's vs the Type 2 & 3's. Obviously the dates are different and the 20 Type 1 Southern Leaguer's are identical to the T206 players from 1909-11, yet not included in the 1914 & 1919 Coupon sets. If you take for example the 4 SL Nashville players (Bay,Bernhard,Ellam,Perdue) from the T206 set, they match spot on to the Type 1 Coupon set, but when you get into the Type 2 1914 Coupons, Nashville players change over to Al Bridwell & Gabby Street & same for Type 3 Coupons as they feature Al & Gabby. It's like this with other players from SL teams and that makes a distinction between the 20 SL featured in Coupon that were offered in the American Litho / ATC brands later named - T206.

Also, as for the New Orleans Times Picayune, there was a series of Coupon Advertisements in the 1909-10 papers depicting different Sportsmen scenarios, like hunting, horse racing, sporting events, etc. The pack is on the advertisement with T206 style cards showing and players names. One such advertisement (that I own), depicts 3 Southern Leaguer's coming out of the top of the pack. When I have time I will have to dig up the Newspaper as I don't have it scanned and its buried in a dry dark place. The Coupon Ad's were run for a handful of months around the 1909-10 time frame.[/QUOTE]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Tony and Jeremy

I really appreciate your posts. Both of you have amplified on a lot of factors which I have presented here in my earlier posts.

Jeremy....it would be great if you can show us your New Orleans Times Picayune papers with the Coupon Advertisements (1909-1910 )
depicting different Sportsmen scenarios.

Thanks again,


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Originally Posted by DixieBaseball

Hey Guys - Sorry, been away at Volleyball Tourneys the past serveral days... I still need to read and catch up on this thread, so forgive me if this has already been mentioned... The Federal Leaguers seem to be key to the time difference in the Type 1 and Type 2's, correct !? Burdick seem to get the Type 2 dating correct as that set is loaded with Federal leaguer's (Federal League 1913-15) and a perfect example is Al Bridwell 1914 Type 2 card - St. Louis Terriers Fed league team. Bridwell is also featured in the Type 2 set with a Nashville card having spent time bouncing around SL a bit. There are other examples in the Type 2 set of Minor League/Federal Leaguer's who are not featured in the Type 1 set as well. To me it seems fairly obvious the 4 Nashville players featured in ATC/American Litho 1909-11 are Bay, Bernhard, Perdue, and Ellam. Those 4 Nashville players are absent in the Type 2 and 3 sets as well as the obvious blue lettering which distinguishes the 2&3 sets from the Type 1. Two Clear examples that Type 1 were most likely not printed in and around the time of the Type 2 and 3 sets.

Pat - Thanks for all the advertisement examples of OM & Hindu... I think that may be what I have buried in my collection. I will dig it up at some point and verify... Too big to scan, and I haven't looked at it in years... Regardless of an advertisement, sure that is clear proof, but Coupon Type 1 cards are so rare, I doubt they had a Advertising campaign like the other ATC brands. While it would be nice to have a clearly dated advertisement as proof, I think its clear by the Federal league example aforementioned and the 4 Nashville players mirroring the T206 4 Nashville players that its more likely the Coupons were produced around 1909-11 than around 1913-19 like the Type 2 and 3's with blue lettering and glossy/thicker cardboard. It's only a matter of time as type 1's lean way more towards the 1910 date, than they do any other date imho.

Thanks, J

[DixieBaseball]

Ted - Per your comments below... I absolutely agree these cards were randomly attached to Coupon Cartons. (See my Examples below) : The Greminger has Carton layer/residue on the reverse still stuck to it and the Coupon Carton has a patchy area in upper right hand corner and is missing a thin layer of carton where something was attached to it and was removed. Plenty of Type 1 Coupon examples with the missing paper in the same spot on the upper middle back. Now look at the carton below... Unfortunately, I have only seen 2 Cartons in my life as they are fragile and have not survived and I own one. I wish I could find the other one to review for paper loss to the carton and see if it is in the same spot. Doesn't have to be as you could attach the card anywhere I suppose, but it makes sense that the upper right of the carton would have the card attached and consistent with pattern of the paper loss on card and carton.

The ones who disagree with us are unaware that these cards were NOT meant to be "stiffiners" in cigarette packs. The initial offering of the COUPON
cigarettes was in rectangular cartons containing 200 (or more) loose cigarettes.....circa 1909 - 1910).
Many of the cards were inserted in these cartons, while others were pasted on the outside of the carton. Hence, the paper loss on the backs of some
of these cards (e.g. my Cobb).

[rats60]

Favorite card, love the colors.


Favorite set

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by DixieBaseball

Ted - Per your comments below... I absolutely agree these cards were randomly attached to Coupon Cartons. (See my Examples below) : The Greminger has Carton layer/residue on the reverse still stuck to it and the Coupon Carton has a patchy area in upper right hand corner and is missing a thin layer of carton where something was attached to it and was removed. Plenty of Type 1 Coupon examples with the missing paper in the same spot on the upper middle back. Now look at the carton below... Unfortunately, I have only seen 2 Cartons in my life as they are fragile and have not survived and I own one. I wish I could find the other one to review for paper loss to the carton and see if it is in the same spot. Doesn't have to be as you could attach the card anywhere I suppose, but it makes sense that the upper right of the carton would have the card attached and consistent with pattern of the paper loss on card and carton.

The ones who disagree with us are unaware that these cards were NOT meant to be "stiffiners" in cigarette packs. The initial offering of the COUPON
cigarettes was in rectangular cartons containing 200 (or more) loose cigarettes.....circa 1909 - 1910).
Many of the cards were inserted in these cartons, while others were pasted on the outside of the carton. Hence, the paper loss on the backs of some
of these cards (e.g. my Cobb).

If the paper loss on your carton is from having a type 1 glued to it that
would mean they were printed after the t206's according to Ted. He said
your carton is 1913 or later because it has Liggett & Myers on it.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Pat R

If the paper loss on your carton is from having a type 1 glued to it that
would mean they were printed after the t206's according to Ted. He said
your carton is 1913 or later because it has Liggett & Myers on it.

The L & M label on these cartons proves nothing in determining when the 1910 COUPON cards were printed. All this indicates is that some 1910 COUPON cards were affixed
to these cartons post ATC Divesture.
The most significant key to determining when the 1910 cards were printed (besides the 48 subjects from the 350-only Series) is in the labelling on the backs of these cards,
namely "COUPON"

The QUOTES surrounding the Brand name signify that ATC has not yet received the Registered TRADEMARK of this new brand (circa 1909/1910) at time of their printing.

Other such examples of QUOTED new Brands are these...........





. .



TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by tedzan

The L & M label on these cartons proves nothing in determining when the 1910 COUPON cards were printed. All this indicates is that some 1910 COUPON cards were affixed
to these cartons post ATC Divesture.
The most significant key to determining when the 1910 cards were printed (besides the 48 subjects from the 350-only Series) is in the labelling on the backs of these cards,
namely "COUPON"

The QUOTES surrounding the Brand name signify that ATC has not yet received the Registered TRADEMARK of this new brand (circa 1909/1910) at time of their printing.

Other such examples of QUOTED new Brands are these...........





. .



TED Z

T206 Reference
.

As you like to say we have discussed this already Ted.

First of we know the Coupon Cigarettes existed as early as 1908

Originally Posted by tedzan

That's the 1908 Times Picayune article which I referred to regarding the "COUPON" Cigarettes brand. I knew you would find it.

Come on Pat, this is silly...."but it doesn't say anything about baseball pictures.".

T206's were not issued until approx. a year later (circa Spring/Summer 1909).

Anyway, thanks for finding this Newspaper article.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

and the quotes seemed to be used on tobacco products frequently back then

Here's a Carolina Brights coupon I have that they used the quotes on

img408.jpg

so your case closed evidence that they were printed in 1910 is

A similar back design
48 subjects from the 350 only series
Coupon in quotes
Paper missing on some backs where they were glued to cartons

These things according to you are case closed evidence they were printed in 1910


but the these facts

they're printed on a different stock
the t213 type 1 subjects don't match up with any other t206 back (except Piedmont)
the ledger pages from an atc journal covering 35 tobacco brands from 1909-1912 doesn't have Coupon cigarettes in it.
you claim that they were glued to cartons and that's what the paper loss on on the back of some of them is from but the carton with paper loss on it that Jeremy has you yourself said is no earlier than 1913.

so all of these facts are just meh... a coincidence?

it really seems to me that you're grasping at straws to prove they were printed in 1910.

[DixieBaseball]

The carton I showed is 1 of 2 examples I have ever seen. We don't know what the cartons looked like from 1909-12. Perhaps they were different. I showed the carton to merely indicate that it has paper loss in upper right and the size of the paper loss is the same as the typical size of the paper loss on a Type 1 Coupon. Many Type 1 Coupons have this same paper loss. There is no doubt the Coupons were affixed to something. Too many examples to be a coincidence. Also, keep in mind Coupon changed their coloring, style on packs multiple times. (I have 3 different colors/styles from 3 different decades in my collection) So it's not out of the question, to see a variance of carton or pack. There may be different examples of cartons that didn't survive that look different from 1909-12. We know the packs look different from 1910 era to 1919-20 to 1930's...

[DixieBaseball]

New Orleans Retailer with rare image of Coupon Boxes / Cartons in the background for sale behind their Window shelves. I wonder how many Coupon Cartons came to a Coupon Box? 4,5,8, or 10 perhaps... Love the mystery behind this super rare tobacco brand.

[Pat R]

Jeremy, It doesn't matter to me if people want to group them with t206's
or if they were attached to the outside of cartons what I am interested in
is the date they were printed.

Have you or Ted looked at the ATC journal?

It covers all the cigarette brand in the t206 set and a total of 35 different brands.

Here are some of the t206 pages from that journal

ATC Carolina Brights Ledger page 2.jpg

ATC Cycle Ledger page.jpg

The narrower American Beauty's you brought up were in it

ATC American Beauty Ledger page.jpg


But the Coupon Cigarettes weren't.

[Casey2296]

Neat stuff Jerome, thanks for posting.

[DixieBaseball]

Originally Posted by Pat R

Jeremy, It doesn't matter to me if people want to group them with t206's
or if they were attached to the outside of cartons what I am interested in
is the date they were printed.

Have you or Ted looked at the ATC journal?

It covers all the cigarette brand in the t206 set and a total of 35 different brands.

Here are some of the t206 pages from that journal

Attachment 459686

Attachment 459687

The narrower American Beauty's you brought up were in it

Attachment 459688


But the Coupon Cigarettes weren't.

Hey Pat - at some point in near future, I will certainly be looking into your ATC Journal info (thank you for providing-looks interesting), and this thread to review all the comments. Plausible either way I suppose, but certainly will check it out. I am to busy playing offense at the moment, to play defense --- Seriously though, I look forward to reviewing, discussing w/ you and Ted in near future. Just so frikkin busy, and I better get back to pressure washing the back deck as that is what I was suppose to be doing this morning... Meanwhile... let us be Free from Adulteration!

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Pat R

As you like to say we have discussed this already Ted.

First of we know the Coupon Cigarettes existed as early as 1908



and the quotes seemed to be used on tobacco products frequently back then

Here's a Carolina Brights coupon I have that they used the quotes on

Attachment 459661 Yes, because in 1908 CAROLINA BRIGHTS was a new ATC brand whose TRADEMARK had NOT yet been Registered !

so your case closed evidence that they were printed in 1910 is

A similar back design
48 subjects from the 350 only series
Coupon in quotes
Paper missing on some backs where they were glued to cartons

These things according to you are case closed evidence they were printed in 1910


but the these facts

they're printed on a different stock
Because these cards were not intended to be inserted in Packs as "stiffiners". There are NO packs labelled "COUPON" cigarettes.


the t213 type 1 subjects don't match up with any other t206 back (except Piedmont) I do not understand what you are stating here, this does NOT make any sense !

the ledger pages from an atc journal covering 35 tobacco brands from 1909-1912 doesn't have Coupon cigarettes in it.
Keep researching, you'll find one that does include the COUPON brand !

you claim that they were glued to cartons and that's what the paper loss on on the back of some of them is from but the carton with paper loss on it that Jeremy has you yourself said is no earlier than 1913. Totally irrelevant in determining printing date !

so all of these facts are just meh... a coincidence?

it really seems to me that you're grasping at straws to prove they were printed in 1910.

I'm not grasping at any straws.

You are so OBSESSED with proving me wrong regarding the 1910 date.....that you are continually making a "fool" of your self.

Perhaps Mark Twain said it best.... "Do not argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference."

This discussion is ENDED ! ! (as far as I'm concerned).

Thanks for "hi-jacking" what started out as an interesting thread.


Hey folks, let's continue posting and talking about our favorite Tobacco cards.


TED Z
.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by tedzan

I'm not grasping at any straws.

You are so OBSESSED with proving me wrong regarding the 1910 date.....that you are continually making a "fool" of your self.

Perhaps Mark Twain said it best.... "Do not argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference."

This discussion is ENDED ! ! (as far as I'm concerned).

Thanks for "hi-jacking" what started out as an interesting thread.


Hey folks, let's continue posting and talking about our favorite Tobacco cards.


TED Z
.

Well Ted if posting facts is "making a fool of myself" so be it at least I can say I never faked a scan to prove myself right.

https://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=136566

[atx840]

Some of my favorites.