OMG: Jose Fernandez Killed in Boating Accident

[1952boyntoncollector]

Here comes the lawsuit soon. One of the the 'friends' of jose had never driven a boat and only met him once before so its unlikely he drove. If there is evidence and a verdict that Jose caused the death of 2 people, this could impact his legacy. If you were the family of a someone who died based on the actions of a celebrity, i would think you would be upset every time you saw that celebrity being honored as it would bring up memories of a tragedy.

http://www.foxnews.com/sports/2016/1...et-lawyer.html


We are a long way away in terms of proof and such, but if there is significant evidence that Jose killed two people would you still name a high school or some type of school after Jose Fernandez for all he has done in miami community.

[jhs5120]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

We are a long way away in terms of proof and such, but if there is significant evidence that Jose killed two people would you still name a high school or some type of school after Jose Fernandez for all he has done in miami community.

Yes

[1952boyntoncollector]

If you were the parents of the other 2 victims on that boat and they were against naming a school after him they may beg to differ

In addition thus far the bad driving actions may be a result of being a fight with a girlfriend and worse yet maybe alcohol involved


Basically if Roberto Clemente was operating the plane in 1973 and the crash killed 2 passengers and was as a result of pilot error, i dont think his legacy would even be one half of what it is today.

[packs]

I don't think that's true. Processing a death is not as black and white as you're making it out to be. There are many emotions that trump blame when it comes to the early death of a beloved person in the community.

[Peter_Spaeth]

This is all premature, and indeed the lawyer said he is awaiting the results of the investigation. At this point there is no basis even to speculate.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

This is all premature, and indeed the lawyer said he is awaiting the results of the investigation. At this point there is no basis even to speculate.

right, thats why i said

"We are a long way away in terms of proof and such, but if there is significant evidence....."

i do think it is also premature to celebrate the guy (ie. name schools after him) given that theres at least a chance right now he is responsible for killing two people.

He is beloved in the community as was stated in this thread, i just think the beloved level may go down depending the results of the wrongful death case etc

[jhs5120]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

Basically if Roberto Clemente was operating the plane in 1973 and the crash killed 2 passengers and was as a result of pilot error, i dont think his legacy would even be one half of what it is today.

Sooooo.... Thurman Munson?

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by jhs5120

Sooooo.... Thurman Munson?

munson did not kill anyone other than himself, now Oscar Taveres killied someone likely while being drunk but since the accident did not occur in the united states, there were no lawsuits here which would of impacted his legacy more. I just find it hard to honor anyone that is responsible for killing someone no matter their exploits on the playing field.

[packs]

I think you're losing sight of what's important. The things Fernandez did for children and people in his community don't get erased because of the circumstances of his death. Naming something after him for his charity work or work within his communities is not a vote of support for any type of behavior you're insinuating contributed to his death or the deaths of the people on the boat. We name our schools after much worse people.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by packs

I think you're losing sight of what's important. The things Fernandez did for children and people in his community don't get erased because of the circumstances of his death. Naming something after him for his charity work or work within his communities is not a vote of support for any type of behavior you're insinuating contributed to his death or the deaths of the people on the boat. We name our schools after much worse people.

I havent seen any schools named after someone whos last act in life was killing someone and being completely at fault (correct me if i am wrong). You can kill someone a year earlier or some other time earlier, i guess but if its your last act you do in life, its a tough pill to swallow, especially for the family of the victims.

There could be a 20 million dollar judgment against Jose Fernandez that is pending as his heirs try to hide money from the plaintiffs going on while they are naming schools after him. Good grief.

Again its too early to tell fault but thats true about a lot of things.

[jhs5120]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

I just find it hard to honor anyone that is responsible for killing someone no matter their exploits on the playing field.

Accidents happen. If you want to focus on the last 20 seconds of a man's life while others focus on the remaining 24 years, then that is your right.

The only thing separating Thurman Munson and Jose Fernandez is a little bit of dumb luck. Munson seriously injured two passengers and could very well have killed them - yet no one complains about the literal monument dedicated to him at Yankee Stadium. Most of us see the good in people, and virtually everyone can agree, Jose Fernandez was one of our best.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by jhs5120

Accidents happen. If you want to focus on the last 20 seconds of a man's life while others focus on the remaining 24 years, then that is your right.

The only thing separating Thurman Munson and Jose Fernandez is a little bit of dumb luck. Munson seriously injured two passengers and could very well have killed them - yet no one complains about the literal monument dedicated to him at Yankee Stadium. Most of us see the good in people, and virtually everyone can agree, Jose Fernandez was one of our best.

Agree with this.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by jhs5120

Accidents happen. If you want to focus on the last 20 seconds of a man's life while others focus on the remaining 24 years, then that is your right.

The only thing separating Thurman Munson and Jose Fernandez is a little bit of dumb luck. Munson seriously injured two passengers and could very well have killed them - yet no one complains about the literal monument dedicated to him at Yankee Stadium. Most of us see the good in people, and virtually everyone can agree, Jose Fernandez was one of our best.

luck impacts a legacy no doubt if those passengers with Munson did DIE, that would of impacted his legacy. 5 seconds in a persons life can change it forever even if that person lived a great life for 80 years. What you did in those last 20 seconds of your life usually doesnt impact the view of the persons whole life unless something huge happened like killing 2 people.

accidents do happen but they are preventable as well. You have to be responsible for your actions. Some drunk (not saying this is the case) can also cause an accident but you would not tolerate that person saying 'accidents happen' Saying 'accidents happen' does not relieve you of responsibility. What if you killed 20 kids and it was entirely at fault. So if killing 2 adults in the last seconds in your life isnt enough to prevent your name on a school how about 10 people? how about 30 people? To me every life is valuable, if its not good to kill 30 people then its not good to kill 1.

History tends to judge people on what they did at the worse which is probably less than .0001% of what they did the rest of their life thats how it goes.

We all have the lowest moments in our lives, the key during that time is not to be killed or kill someone. What is sad is killing someone is the only thing that is unforgivable because you cant ask for forgiveness from someone you killed.

[jhs5120]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

History tends to judge people on what they did at the worse which is probably less than .0001% of what they did the rest of their life thats how it goes.

History is forgiving of accidents. They do not represent a person at their worst, they represent a person as a human being. It is especially callous to judge a person by the mistake that cost him his life.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by jhs5120

History is forgiving of accidents. They do not represent a person at their worst, they represent a person as a human being. It is especially callous to judge a person by the mistake that cost him his life.

Well here we go with luck again. If the person didnt die that caused the accident, but 2 people died, then it would not be especially callous for history to judge that person. The fact of whether that person lived or died should not factor into that equation if there are 2 other victims that died because of that person's actions. I still have not heard of an example of someone in history that been forgiven for killing an innocent person as their final act to a point where they would name a school after them.

I know donte stallworth paid a large sum of money for killing someone in miami and he has made it a point in his life to be a good person and expand his knowledge etc. However he has said on the radio that he paid the family even though he could of won in court or something to that effect so maybe he was not civilly at fault and it wasnt his last act in his life.

[jhs5120]

Laura Bush killed a 17 year old boy and has several schools, libraries and scholarships named after her.

Howard Hughes killed a woman and was given the Congressional Gold Medal three years later he also has a school named after him.

Ted Kennedy also killed someone. He has an honorary Knighthood, the Presidential Medal of Freedom and a cancer research institute named after him.

Matthew Broderick killed two people and still gets movies.

There are also countless local teachers, students and athletes who die in car crashes every year who are honored posthumously with scholarships named after them. It is something very few people (except perhaps you) take issue with.

[Snapolit1]

Agree. Let's judge someone for the full measure of their life and not by the worst 60 seconds of it. There is a difference between negligent and evil (e.g., OJ Simpson, Mel Hall, the football player who went around the country date raping women, etc.) I am sure all of us have done very very stupid things in our lives. Like driving home after a few too many drinks. There by the grace of God go I (or something like that. Need to ask my mother on the exact wording.)

[packs]

Nathan Bedford Forrest and William Saunders were both leaders of the Klan and had public institutions named after them. Carolina Hall at UNC was Saunders Hall until only last year. Forrest still has schools named after him, along with parks, roads, playgrounds, etc.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Agree. Let's judge someone for the full measure of their life and not by the worst 60 seconds of it. There is a difference between negligent and evil (e.g., OJ Simpson, Mel Hall, the football player who went around the country date raping women, etc.) I am sure all of us have done very very stupid things in our lives. Like driving home after a few too many drinks. There by the grace of God go I (or something like that. Need to ask my mother on the exact wording.)

There but for the grace of God...

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by jhs5120

Laura Bush killed a 17 year old boy and has several schools, libraries and scholarships named after her.

Howard Hughes killed a woman and was given the Congressional Gold Medal three years later he also has a school named after him.

Ted Kennedy also killed someone. He has an honorary Knighthood, the Presidential Medal of Freedom and a cancer research institute named after him.

Matthew Broderick killed two people and still gets movies.

There are also countless local teachers, students and athletes who die in car crashes every year who are honored posthumously with scholarships named after them. It is something very few people (except perhaps you) take issue with.

Laura Bush was barely 17 and a minor and zero drinking involved and of course wasnt the last act she had on the earth. If it was a 17 year old baseball player involved in a similar accident there would also be more understanding

Ted Kennedy issue was a major scandal but he is a political elite which meant even more in the 1960s then today. Again he didnt die in that accident. If he did he would not have had all those extra years of public service. His legacy would of been far different if he didnt have a chance to tell the world what he said happened in the accident etc.

You got me on Broderick though, you make a good point with him, though he didnt die in the accident.. However its one thing to be in movies and another to be have public schools named after you. Afterall he is an actor, and i along with everyone else would not care of jose fernandez survived the accident and continued to play baseball which is is livelihood. Lots of players have been involved in killings with much more intent than a car accident and continued to play.

Its one thing to play ball and another to be considered national hero.

All of those teachers/students/athetes who die in car accidents and have scholarships named after them more likely than not did not kill anyone else let alone 2 people.


I know i was very saddened to hear about the loss of Jose Fernandez. Its an immense loss all around.

[Bestdj777]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

I know i was very saddened to hear about the loss of Jose Fernandez. Its an immense loss all around.

Then stop talking about this other BS.

[JollyElm]

Originally Posted by packs

Nathan Bedford Forrest and William Saunders were both leaders of the Klan and had public institutions named after them. Carolina Hall at UNC was Saunders Hall until only last year. Forrest still has schools named after him, along with parks, roads, playgrounds, etc.

And don't forget about the eponymous, freaky character Tom Hanks won an Oscar for playing.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by JollyElm

And don't forget about the eponymous, freaky character Tom Hanks won an Oscar for playing.

Tom Hanks played a character named Tom Hanks???

[JollyElm]

Tom Hanks played the eponymous protagonist of the movie 'Forrest Gump.' Does that clear it up for you???????

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Not to get into a semantics argument but if Tom Hanks played an eponymous protagonist he played a protagonist named Tom Hanks.

If a school was named after Nathan Bedford Forrest it is an eponymous school. The name has to be the same.

You could say that Nathan Bedford Forrest had an eponymous character in a Tom Hanks movie, and if you weren't being too picky about only having one name in common I'd sorta buy that, but by that logic Forrest Gregg was closer to having an eponymous character in the movie, and Gump played football!

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Bestdj777

Then stop talking about this other BS.

I dont think it is BS at all. Some will agree and some will differ. Im sure the family of the victims would be upset with you calling my comments BS.

I do think the end game for miami is to basically blame at least comparatively the jetty/pier and to put money into making the jetty more visible to save future lives and honor jose that way. I dont think anyone would object to that plus it puts less fault on whoever was driving the boat.

[Bestdj777]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

I dont think it is BS at all. Some will agree and some will differ. Im sure the family of the victims would be upset with you calling my comments BS.

I do think the end game for miami is to basically blame at least comparatively the jetty/pier and to put money into making the jetty more visible to save future lives and honor jose that way. I dont think anyone would object to that plus it puts less fault on whoever was driving the boat.

I don't think the families would care one bit about any comments you or I made about the situation.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Bestdj777

I don't think the families would care one bit about any comments you or I made about the situation.

I think they would care one way or the other right now. To say someone who lost a family member wouldnt care is a pretty blanket statement in a vacuum. A lawyer was hired for a reason as well, the issues around this accident are still ongoing.

I would assume they would care and have a say about what honors jose fernandez would get and would care about people comments in support of his honors or against those honors. As facts come out from the accident it may impact how they care.

I know i review what i post here with the eyes of what families of the victims may see here whether they see the comments or not.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Not to get into a semantics argument but if Tom Hanks played an eponymous protagonist he played a protagonist named Tom Hanks.

If a school was named after Nathan Bedford Forrest it is an eponymous school. The name has to be the same.

You could say that Nathan Bedford Forrest had an eponymous character in a Tom Hanks movie, and if you weren't being too picky about only having one name in common I'd sorta buy that, but by that logic Forrest Gregg was closer to having an eponymous character in the movie, and Gump played football!

You sure about that?
http://www.listal.com/list/eponymous-movie-titles

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

You sure about that?
http://www.listal.com/list/eponymous-movie-titles

Anything named after someone is not eponymous. I would say that site is using it wrong. Especially considering that those titles are largely fictional characters not named after anyone.


adjective
1.
giving one's name to a tribe, place, etc.:
Romulus, the eponymous founder of Rome.

[Peter_Spaeth]

If it's good enough for Sporcle it's good enough for me.

http://www.sporcle.com/games/livfred/eponymous_movies

[pclpads]

Yawn. Think most of youse guys need to hit your local watering hole and get laid for a Friday nite. Else, you wouldn't be posting this nonsense.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by pclpads

Yawn. Think most of youse guys need to hit your local watering hole and get laid for a Friday nite. Else, you wouldn't be posting this nonsense.

Jose Fernandez and passengers all with alcohol on their breath

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports...odor/92784342/


"“This recklessness was exacerbated by the consumption of alcohol by the operator, whoever that was."

[PhillipAbbott79]

I have a 2 points about this:

1. Dead people don't breathe
2. They had water in their lungs. I would expect those observations to be tainted.

[Snapolit1]

Fernandez under influence of cocaine and alcohol at time of crash. Terrible.

Driving a speed boat in the dark of night at high speed under the influence of coke. Really bad idea on many levels.

[FirstYearCards]

I guess we're all blessed the Gods put rocks there instead of a family. Happens all to often in traffic accidents. Although I'm sure he never did any car driving under those intoxications.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Wow...I wanted to keep his cards I have but now I am having second thoughts

[Snapolit1]

Was a great player but like a lot of people in their 20s think they are invincible.

I tell my kids all the time about the hockey goaltender from NJ who was killed years ago speeding. His reflexes were superhuman quick and had perception skills than none of us mere mortals will come anywhere near. If he can lose control of a car on a turn speeding all of us can. Speed kills.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Fernandez under influence of cocaine and alcohol at time of crash. Terrible.

Driving a speed boat in the dark of night at high speed under the influence of coke. Really bad idea on many levels.

Yeah it gets worse and worse plus not just under the influence a .14 which pretty dang high plus cocaine.. (yes we cant prove who was driving yet but it was his boat)

We really going to name public schools after him? Plus he knew he had a baby on the way..

Like someone said, luckily it was just rocks and not people they ran into. I still disagree that a man's last actions if it results in a the death of innocent people can't taint many years of good work. If they release these toxicology reports when they were first available instead having to be sued to release them the narrative about Jose Fernandez would of been a lot different in terms of the celebration part

One of the passengers didnt have cocaine in their system as well so it wasnt a group thing.

[clydepepper]

delete

[Cliff Bowman]

If three men who were sober and clean decided it was a brilliant idea to take a speedboat out on the ocean at one in the morning with the knowledge that there were unseeable deadly hazards in the dark around them, I would be bewildered. It makes sense now.

[1963Topps Set]

Did I miss something, but why wasn't the Tim Crews boat accident mentioned?

[insidethewrapper]

Makes you wonder how many of these players are using cocaine etc.

[keithsky]

Don't these guys get drug tested on a regular basis? If he used cocaine i would think it would be in his system for a while say if he didn't die or crash and went back the next day or so to play.

[z28jd]

Originally Posted by keithsky

Don't these guys get drug tested on a regular basis? If he used cocaine i would think it would be in his system for a while say if he didn't die or crash and went back the next day or so to play.

They test for drugs of abuse if they believe there is reasonable cause to suspect a player of abusing drugs. That doesn't mean if a player fails, that anything happens. They could recommend a treatment program for them. They won't get suspended though.

Drugs of abuse suspensions only apply to minor league players not on the 40-man roster. There have been rumors of a couple instances of teams adding players to the 40-man roster to protect them from lifetime suspensions under the minor league drug prevention program.

[Snapolit1]

With everything these guys have to lose you'd think they put the hard drugs far far away. Drink and drink, use a driver the team would be thrilled to provide.

I know it's not a great thought, but now I look at all the videos of Fernandez going manic in the dugout differently. Was he going back to the bathroom and having a few toots on days he wasn't starting? I have no idea. But certainly makes you wonder.

RIP. None of this makes him a terrible person. Just someone who made some terrible choices.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

With everything these guys have to lose you'd think they put the hard drugs far far away. Drink and drink, use a driver the team would be thrilled to provide.

I know it's not a great thought, but now I look at all the videos of Fernandez going manic in the dugout differently. Was he going back to the bathroom and having a few toots on days he wasn't starting? I have no idea. But certainly makes you wonder.

RIP. None of this makes him a terrible person. Just someone who made some terrible choices.

Not saying it applies to Jose, but it can be argued that terrible people make terrible choices.

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

Not saying it applies to Jose, but it can be argued that terrible people make terrible choices.

Making a terrible choice or choices is not exclusive to terrible people, at least in my opinion and based off of my experiences. This is especially true when it comes to addiction. Of course ultimately that final judgment is not ours to make anyways

[clydepepper]

delete

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Gobucsmagic74

Making a terrible choice or choices is not exclusive to terrible people, at least in my opinion and based off of my experiences. This is especially true when it comes to addiction. Of course ultimately that final judgment is not ours to make anyways

I didnt say that, i just said it can be argued that terrible people make terrible choices.