1954 Topps Aaron RC versus 1955 Topps Clemente RC

[gomaz]

I am wondering why the Clemente sells for so much more than the Aaron in same grade. PSA 7 Clemente's seem to sell for north of $20K while Aaron's PSA 7 sells for under $10K. Across the board (PSA 6 - 9) Clemente sells for double the Hank.

I looked at the pop reports and they are awful similar. In terms of total graded and even by grade. They are too similar, I think, to justify the difference in values.

Sure I am a Canadian who focuses mostly on hockey but even from that perspective, Aaron is more famous and excelled at offense (not saying Clemente didn't, just not as familiar with him), which is what usually drives value in my experience.

So why is it then that the Clemente rookie card gets double the love as the Aaron?

Is the Clemente overvalued? Is the Aaron undervalued?

Really interested in hearing some thoughts on this.

Thanks,
Jeremy Lee

[ullmandds]

You know what I think?

I think whomever is driving up prices has chosen a "figurehead" of ethnicity...Koufax, Clemente, and Robinson gets the nod for the blacks at this time.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Clemente has always been worth more in same grade. I am surprised pops are similar actually I thought Clemente was harder to find being a high number.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Clemente has always been justly popular in the hobby, from some combination of his flair and charisma, untimely death, humanitarian efforts, and status as the first Latin (is that politically correct these days?) superstar.

[Rookiemonster]

I always chalked it up to it being a high number(the Clemente ). It seems to always be off center. So I'm sure center Clementes sell for a higher premium.


I also notice that the 1954 topps rookie are everywhere. I can't check my followed searchs with one of them being listed .

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Clemente has always been justly popular in the hobby, from some combination of his flair and charisma, untimely death, humanitarian efforts, and status as the first Latin (is that politically correct these days?) superstar.

All of that, plus being a high number.

Plus, and it'll probably annoy fans of the 54s. I think it's just a much nicer looking card. If they were both commons and set out for free with the only catch being that you could only take one, which would it be?

Steve B

[glynparson]

Is simply more popular and has been since I started collecting in the late 70's early 80's. Aaron used to be a tough card to sell despite his tremendous resume. This is no longer the case of course but Clemente is still more popular.

[begsu1013]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

...Koufax, Clemente, and Robinson gets the nod for the blacks at this time.

hmm.

[midwaylandscaping]

Aaron's underrated relative to his career accomplishments and standing as an all time great and his RC is undervalued. Always has been.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by midwaylandscaping

Aaron's underrated relative to his career accomplishments and standing as an all time great and his RC is undervalued. Always has been.

Yeah just look at Aaron's card values relative to Mantle for any given year starting in 56. Then look at their relative accomplishments.

[toppcat]

Clemente is more popular than Aaron, it's not even really close from what I've seen over about 30 years or so.

[begsu1013]

for now, unfortunately.

[Neal]

As stated already in this thread ....

1) Aaron cards do not get a lot of respect. No idea why.
2) Aaron's resume is underrated. Highly, at times. No idea why.
3) Clemente had a great career that had an unfortunate, memorable ending.
5) The 55 Topps issue is awesome

I think the 54 Aaron has some more room to grow, however.

[pokerplyr80]

I'm actually more surprised that the higher grade Mays RCs sell for so much less than the Clementes. It looks like from grades 1-6, Mays outsells Clemente by decent margin, even after the recent run up on the Clemente cards. But in 7 and 8 it's about 2 to 1 in favor of Clemente. The PSA population report shows there are less Mays examples available in every grade. And they certainly don't come up for sale as often.

I do agree the Aaron is under valued. I recently picked up a nice mid grade example.

[ls7plus]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Clemente has always been justly popular in the hobby, from some combination of his flair and charisma, untimely death, humanitarian efforts, and status as the first Latin (is that politically correct these days?) superstar.

All quite true, although Aaron was objectively and demonstrably the better player--just check JAWs and runs created per 27 outs to league average. Clemente was a better fielder, but not nearly enough better to close the considerable offensive performance gap, and Aaron was a very good right fielder. In JAWs (career wins above replacement plus 7-year peak wins above replacement divided by two, Aaron is the second best right fielder of all time, with 142.6 career WAR and 60.1 7-year peak WAR.. Clemente is the 6th best, with 94.5 and 54.3 respectively. In runs created per 27 outs taken against the league average, Aaron is over 180%, while Roberto is in the 140%-range. For the reasons Pete has stated, Clemente has the "mystique," which Aaron lacks, hence, with a similar supply, more demand, and more value (VALUE IS ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS in proportion to the demand for an item in relation to the available supply in a free market).

Larry

[Peter_Spaeth]

As someone once said, you had a better chance of sneaking a sunrise past a rooster than sneaking a fastball by Hank Aaron.

[RobertC]

"As far as I'm concerned, (Hank) Aaron is the best ball player of my era. He is to baseball of the last fifteen years what Joe DiMaggio was before him. He's never received the credit he's due." - Mickey Mantle

[Vintagevault13]

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Gr8Beldini]

Originally Posted by ls7plus

All quite true, although Aaron was objectively and demonstrably the better player--just check JAWs and runs created per 27 outs to league average. Clemente was a better fielder, but not nearly enough better to close the considerable offensive performance gap, and Aaron was a very good right fielder. In JAWs (career wins above replacement plus 7-year peak wins above replacement divided by two, Aaron is the second best right fielder of all time, with 142.6 career WAR and 60.1 7-year peak WAR.. Clemente is the 6th best, with 94.5 and 54.3 respectively. In runs created per 27 outs taken against the league average, Aaron is over 180%, while Roberto is in the 140%-range. For the reasons Pete has stated, Clemente has the "mystique," which Aaron lacks, hence, with a similar supply, more demand, and more value (VALUE IS ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS in proportion to the demand for an item in relation to the available supply in a free market).

Larry

Aaron was a better player than Clemente; a better player than all but a fist full of players in MLB history. But nobody is debating "better player." Clemente is a God in the Hispanic community. Aaron doesn't have anywhere near that kind of following in any community. Clemente is revered in Pittsburgh... not-so-much Aaron in Milwaukee/Atlanta. Plus Clemente won 2 championships (owning 1971); died a heroic death; his rookie card is scarcer than Hank's... Hank was a great great player; Roberto was an iconic player that was great. There is more demand for "iconic" than for "great."

[rats60]

Originally Posted by ls7plus

Clemente was a better fielder, but not nearly enough better to close the considerable offensive performance gap, and Aaron was a very good right fielder.

Aaron has a negative 4.8 defensive WAR. Aaron and Mays are not very pleasant people. I think that really hurts the value of their cards.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Clemente has always been worth more in same grade.

Starting when? Look back through some old copies of Beckett. Aaron RC was 1.5X Clemente RC.

[CW]

Originally Posted by rats60

Aaron and Mays are not very pleasant people.

I know I've read more than one instance where Mays was a prick, but I hadn't really heard any bad stories about Aaron. He was pretty sour when Bonds was surpassing his HR record, understandably so, but that's all the negative press I've heard on Hank.

Did I miss some instances of Aaron being unpleasant to fans or the press?

[glynparson]

Clemente may not have listed for more but he was far easier to sell and high end cards commanded a far larger premium than Aaron cards did. From my experiences of doing countless major shows pre grading Clemente was in fact in far greater demand despite what was quoted in a magazine. In the early 90's Aaron, though not as surly as Mays, was considered by many who got his auto to be rude. from the responses i heard at shows.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Starting when? Look back through some old copies of Beckett. Aaron RC was 1.5X Clemente RC.

Maybe not in Beckett but graded 7s and 8s for sure as long as I remember.

[stargell1]

Originally Posted by CW

Did I miss some instances of Aaron being unpleasant to fans or the press?

Yes. Aaron is a well known racist.


http://www.mediaite.com/online/hank-...obama-critics/

[ALR-bishop]

That excerpt certainly proves...nothing

[Vintagevault13]

I have lived in Atlanta/NE Georgia my entire life and I honestly can't recall hearing anything but admiration for Aaron. He has been a great ambassador for the city. I understand that his remarks in USA Today upset some people. I admit that I was bothered at the time as they seemed to paint with a very broad brush. I honestly don't think he meant the comment to be interpreted to include as many people as it seemed to implicate. With all that Aaron encountered chasing Ruth's record (racist hate mail, death threats), I think that he handled the situation with much grace and class. Many would have been much more bitter and turned their back on the city, team, and fans. He has done just the opposite as he has continued to be a vital part of the organization and community.

[begsu1013]

Originally Posted by Vintagevault13

I have lived in Atlanta/NE Georgia my entire life and I honestly can't recall hearing anything but admiration for Aaron. He has been a great ambassador for the city. I understand that his remarks in USA Today upset some people. I admit that I was bothered at the time as they seemed to paint with a very broad brush. I honestly don't think he meant the comment to be interpreted to include as many people as it seemed to implicate. With all that Aaron encountered chasing Ruth's record (racist hate mail, death threats), I think that he handled the situation with much grace and class. Many would have been much more bitter and turned their back on the city, team, and fans. He has done just the opposite as he has continued to be a vital part of the organization and community.

110%.

duffle bags upon duffle bags of hate mail and death threats solely for being black.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Imagine playing the outfield and going to bat wondering if maybe, just maybe, one of the people who had threatened to kill you at the ballpark was going to try it that day.

[ullmandds]

tough to blame any black man...especially one who played in the early days of integration, for being leary of the "white man"...like mohammed ali.

[irv]

Originally Posted by begsu1013

110%.

duffle bags upon duffle bags of hate mail and death threats solely for being black.

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Imagine playing the outfield and going to bat wondering if maybe, just maybe, one of the people who had threatened to kill you at the ballpark was going to try it that day.

I couldn't imagine what these guys, (Aaron and Robinson and a lot more) had to go through, and it even continues today, sadly

[stargell1]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

tough to blame any black man...especially one who played in the early days of integration to be very leary of the "white man"...like mohammed ali.

I suppose every racist has their own excuses.

[ALR-bishop]

The voice of experience ?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by stargell1

Yes. Aaron is a well known racist.


http://www.mediaite.com/online/hank-...obama-critics/

Bravely spoken hiding behind a user name.

[esehombre]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

As someone once said, you had a better chance of sneaking a sunrise past a rooster than sneaking a fastball by Hank Aaron.

I think that was a quote from Bob Feller in reference to Ted Williams (who would certainly know). Of course it fits Aaron just fine as well!

[Neal]

Originally Posted by esehombre

I think that was a quote from Bob Feller in reference to Ted Williams (who would certainly know). Of course it fits Aaron just fine as well!

I think it was Curt Simmons regarding Aaron ....

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Neal

I think it was Curt Simmons regarding Aaron ....

Yeah that's what I now recall Curt Simmons. Maybe he copied it from Feller who knows.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by stargell1

I suppose every racist has their own excuses.

You are more than welcome to say that. But per the rule at the top of every page and in bold letters, your full name needs to be next to it or you can edit out your comments. Nothing personal. thanks

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by stargell1

Yes. Aaron is a well known racist.


http://www.mediaite.com/online/hank-...obama-critics/

I don't think he's a racist, just a dumbass. Stupid comment? Yes. Racist? I don't think so, not to me anyway.

It's funny, but when you're white and criticize Obama's policies, you're demonized and branded as a racist just because he's black. When you're black (Harry Belafonte, Ben Carson, Herman Cain, Michael Steele, Allen West, the list goes on and on) and criticize Obama's policies, you're branded as an "Uncle Tom". So are black people who criticize (fill in name of white politician here) racist just because he's white? What do you call the same white people (who are called racist for criticizing Obama) that support other black politicians?

I didn't mean to get political, but the topic turned to Aaron's dumbass comment (even though I still consider him one of the greatest ever).

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

I don't think he's a racist, just a dumbass. Stupid comment? Yes. Racist? I don't think so, not to me anyway.

It's funny, but when you're white and criticize Obama's policies, you're demonized and branded as a racist just because he's black. When you're black (Harry Belafonte, Ben Carson, Herman Cain, Michael Steele, Allen West, the list goes on and on) and criticize Obama's policies, you're branded as an "Uncle Tom". So are black people who criticize (fill in name of white politician here) racist just because he's white? What do you call the same white people (who are called racist for criticizing Obama) that support other black politicians?

I didn't mean to get political, but the topic turned to Aaron's dumbass comment (even though I still consider him one of the greatest ever).

Who is branding Obama's critics racist?

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Who is branding Obama's critics racist?

Hank Aaron (many others have done it as well).

From the article...

"MLB Hall of Famer Hank Aaron recently likened President Obama‘s Republican critics to the KKK in 'neckties and starched shirts'."

In other words, he's saying if you criticize Obama, you're a racist. Right?

[begsu1013]

"in other words"

[glynparson]

I think it depends on how you criticize the President, those that can point to specific things they don't like have legitimate criticism. Those just saying they want their country back and he's ruined it tend to have an air of racism to their comments. There are still large swaths of this country with tremendous racial prejudices.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by glynparson

There are still large swaths of this country with tremendous racial prejudices.

Very true, Glyn, but let's not pretend that only white people can be racists. There are racists in all races...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5S2E26BWoo

[begsu1013]

work ethic is my only defining character.

ya either got it or ya don't.

ya contribute to society or ya don't.



and if ya don't, i despise ya equally regardless of the color of your skin.

[Dpeck100]

I wondered at the time when those comments came out from Hank if it would hurt his card values and they have done nothing but sky rocket since.

Clemente has the luxury if you can call it that of dying in his prime and becoming a mythical athlete. He is also from the island of Puerto Rico and is a national hero.

Like many athletes their legacy can be impacted by their actions off the field or court etc. and when you die helping your countrymen you are forever a hero. I think his appearance also helps. Clemente was a handsome man and whether people like to admit it or not that can only help your popularity.

I personally found the Aaron comments to be highly insulting as my disdain for Obama has nothing to do with his skin color. If someone is to be given a free pass one could argue he deserves it. From the issues during his playing days to the issues at Turner Broadcasting. There was an angle in WCW between Ron Simmons and Vader where Harley Race made some very racially insensitive comments in his promo to create cheap heat and Aaron went ballistic. Seeing this throughout your life could certainly cause one to be jaded.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by begsu1013

work ethic is my only defining character.

ya either got it or ya don't.

ya contribute to society or ya don't.

and if ya don't, i despise ya equally regardless of the color of your skin.

yeap.

[egri]

If Aaron's comments were coming from someone of my generation, I would find them racist, but coming from someone who grew up black in Jim Crow Alabama, and debuted in the National League in 1953 when many of the teams were not yet integrated, I can see where he is coming from. I don't agree with him, but I can understand why someone with his life experiences would feel that way.

[gomaz]

Thanks for all of the informative responses.

This post below really gave me the information I was looking for especially the bolded parts. I think those might be the key reasons why the Clemente commands more dollars. It seems like reverie is more important, in this case, than who was the better player, the card's known graded population, and the relative popularity of the two sets, all put together.

Originally Posted by Gr8Beldini

Aaron was a better player than Clemente; a better player than all but a fist full of players in MLB history. But nobody is debating "better player." Clemente is a God in the Hispanic community. Aaron doesn't have anywhere near that kind of following in any community. Clemente is revered in Pittsburgh... not-so-much Aaron in Milwaukee/Atlanta. Plus Clemente won 2 championships (owning 1971); died a heroic death; his rookie card is scarcer than Hank's... Hank was a great great player; Roberto was an iconic player that was great. There is more demand for "iconic" than for "great."

Originally Posted by RobertC

"As far as I'm concerned, (Hank) Aaron is the best ball player of my era. He is to baseball of the last fifteen years what Joe DiMaggio was before him. He's never received the credit he's due." - Mickey Mantle

That says a lot right there that the Aaron may be undervalued.

Originally Posted by Vintagevault13

I have lived in Atlanta/NE Georgia my entire life and I honestly can't recall hearing anything but admiration for Aaron. He has been a great ambassador for the city. I understand that his remarks in USA Today upset some people. I admit that I was bothered at the time as they seemed to paint with a very broad brush. I honestly don't think he meant the comment to be interpreted to include as many people as it seemed to implicate. With all that Aaron encountered chasing Ruth's record (racist hate mail, death threats), I think that he handled the situation with much grace and class. Many would have been much more bitter and turned their back on the city, team, and fans. He has done just the opposite as he has continued to be a vital part of the organization and community.

That is really good and nice to hear.

Jeremy Lee

[Rookiemonster]

I get that aaron had it hard but he is a American .imagine how hard clemente must of had it .I'm sure he got it pretty bad as well . I don't remember ever hearing about him getting racist with people .nothing gives you the right to be racist . TWO WRONGS DON'T MAKE A RIGHT.