Pete Rose Poll

[glynparson]

To the same character standards I would have less problem with it. But frankly I am a little tired of the old writers acting like their era were saints and all those after that are inferior. I want players judges for infield performance or else remove the cheaters liars and scoundrels and gamblers already enshrines. And there are many.

[tschock]

Originally Posted by rats60

What players are you talking about? I am not aware of any evidence against existing members of the hof. I have heard acquisitions against Henderson without proof, like Piazza and Bagwell. Barry Bonds admitted under oath that he used steroids, the clear and the cream. If you can provide similar evidence that any current hofer used steroids, then I would favor removing them. Even though I doubt it would ever happen. I don't think there is even a way to expel members from the hof.

Sorry if I wasn't clear on my question. I was looking for your reasoning behind expunging all PED players records and not allowing them to be eligible. I wasn't implying others in the HOF were PED takers. I just wanted to understand if you argument was a logical or emotional one, hence my questions.

[quinnsryche]

Rose is a liar, a cheat and a miserable POS. I hope he never gets in. He doesn't deserve the accolades he wants so badly. I don't care what he did on the field, it was what he did off the field that hurt baseball. You can't kick out guys when you find out what they did after the fact but you can keep the guys out who you know exactly what they did. That's why Chase, Jackson and many others aren't in and don't deserve to be.

At least Rose got his hits without PEDS, Bonds, McGuire, Sosa and A Rod should be banned for PEDS and their records disqualified

[tschock]

Originally Posted by rgpete

At least Rose got his hits without PEDS, Bonds, McGuire, Sosa and A Rod should be banned for PEDS and their records disqualified

Exactly! They didn't need PEDs. The greenies worked just fine.

[mattsey9]

Originally Posted by BleedinBlue

While I agree Simpson was a hall of famer as a player I do not believe that he would have been inducted if the timing had been different. The NFL would never have allowed itself to honor somebody guilty of such an act. Regardless of qualifications.

Ray Lewis pled guilty to trying to cover up a murder, so I guess we will find out soon.

[mattsey9]

Originally Posted by rats60

What players are you talking about? I am not aware of any evidence against existing members of the hof. I have heard acquisitions against Henderson without proof, like Piazza and Bagwell. Barry Bonds admitted under oath that he used steroids, the clear and the cream. If you can provide similar evidence that any current hofer used steroids, then I would favor removing them. Even though I doubt it would ever happen. I don't think there is even a way to expel members from the hof.

Players in the 50s, 60s, and 70s were eating Greenies like they were candy. Several players from that era in the HOF have been linked to their use.

[Nashvol]

If I was on the witness stand and admitted to a crime that would lead to a decision my friends or I didn't like, those friends' nor my own whining about what others have or have not done is not a viable defense and would not have an impact.

Four Commisioners have not overturned the original ban. In my opinion, Pete Rose is his own worst enemy and I take great delight in believing he will never know the Hall of Fame...

[rats60]

Originally Posted by mattsey9

Players in the 50s, 60s, and 70s were eating Greenies like they were candy. Several players from that era in the HOF have been linked to their use.

Greenies aren't PEDs. It's apples and oranges. You cannot compare the two. Also, there was no drug policy in mlb until the late 70s when steroids and greenies were banned. So, players who used them prior to the policy cannot be compared to players who knew they were banned, but chose to dope anyway. That is cheating and they deserve to be kept from the hof.

Similarly, Ty Cobb and Tris Speaker bet on baseball prior to the 1919 World Series and a ban on gambling. Pete Rose bet knowing the rule and punishment and he deserves his permanent banishment while Cobb and Speaker were easily elected. We evolve as a society and make rules that improve us, but we don't punish those who didn't have foreknowledge of those rules.

[Kenny Cole]

More like oranges and grapefruits -- one is just seen as a much bigger member of the same family. Greenies have been banned by MLB since, I believe, 1971. Yet they were commonly used at least into the mid-80's. A number of those in the hallowed HOF, including Mays, Aaron, Schmidt and Stargell, to name a few, took them precisely to improve their performance. That's why when any HOF player from the 1970's gets on their soapbox about PEDs it makes me think they are probably a bit hypocritical and makes me want to call bullshit on them for that reason.

[bbcard1]

I grew up a huge fan of Pete Rose. I don't really care all that much, but Rose personally is better off not in the hall. If keeps him in the public eye and conversation and opens personal income opportunities for him that are not available to comparable players.

[GregMitch34]

Note to folks who compare use of greenies to PEDs: Babe Ruth's and Roger Maris' home run records stood for years, for decades, until steroids era when everyone and their mother hit 50 dingers or more. And after steroids crackdown--whoops, we are back to pre-1990s power levels. What a coincidinky.

[tschock]

Originally Posted by Kenny Cole

More like oranges and grapefruits -- one is just seen as a much bigger member of the same family. Greenies have been banned by MLB since, I believe, 1971. Yet they were commonly used at least into the mid-80's. A number of those in the hallowed HOF, including Mays, Aaron, Schmidt and Stargell, to name a few, took them precisely to improve their performance. That's why when any HOF player from the 1970's gets on their soapbox about PEDs it makes me think they are probably a bit hypocritical and makes me want to call bullshit on them for that reason.

This. And baseball drug policy or not, since 1970 it has been a federal crime to use amphetamines without a prescription. Similarly with providing them to someone else. There have performance enhancements going on since the days of Pud Gavin.

I thought the HOF were supposed to honor the best players from their era? So why wouldn't this be someone like Bonds? I'm still waiting for someone to explain their reasoning of WHY the banishment for PED users (during the "PED era"). Because they cheated? Because what they did was illegal? Because it gave them an edge?

What is you view on existing members of the HOF who cheated, were involved in illegal activities, or did something to give them an edge? Should they be removed?

[jason.1969]

Originally Posted by PolarBear

I don't see how what Rose did affects his stats, which is what his induction would be based on.

Contrast that with the PED generation - Sosa, McGwire, Bonds etc. They deserve not only to be banned from the HOF but have their stats erased from the record books completely.

Totally agree!

[xplainer]

I voted YES based on what he did on the field.

I "met" Pete at Al Lopez Field in the mid 70's. The Red had lost to the Phillies and Pete went something like 1 for 4. He took batting practice after the game. He hit one over the fence and my buddy ran around the park to get it. He came back with the ball, and when Pete had finished his practice, my best friend jumped over the dugout and said, "Mr. Rose, could please you sign this ball for me?"

His response was "Get off the f*%&ing field, you f&*%ing kid!", then turned and ran to his dugout...and down the tunnel.

I will never forget that day.

But, statistically, he belongs in the HOF.

[tbob]

Pete can get in as soon as Joe Jackson once again becomes eligible and is inducted.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Kenny Cole

More like oranges and grapefruits -- one is just seen as a much bigger member of the same family. Greenies have been banned by MLB since, I believe, 1971. Yet they were commonly used at least into the mid-80's. A number of those in the hallowed HOF, including Mays, Aaron, Schmidt and Stargell, to name a few, took them precisely to improve their performance. That's why when any HOF player from the 1970's gets on their soapbox about PEDs it makes me think they are probably a bit hypocritical and makes me want to call bullshit on them for that reason.

In any sport where there is a lot of money involved, there are going to be players -- lots of them -- who push the limit of the rules and then some to gain an edge.

Why is it by the way that people are so holy about PED in baseball but it's barely discussed in football, where usage is and has been likely much more pervasive?

http://www.vpxsports.com/article-det...use-in-the-nfl

[Joshchisox08]

"Why is it by the way that people are so holy about PED in baseball but it's barely discussed in football, where usage is and has been likely much more pervasive?"


THANK YOU!!! About time someone other than myself asks this question.

[jason.1969]

I can only answer for myself. In baseball, I hold (held!) the record book as sacred, even more sacred than the outcomes of games or seasons. Meanwhile, in football, I just watch for entertainment.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Joshchisox08

"Why is it by the way that people are so holy about PED in baseball but it's barely discussed in football, where usage is and has been likely much more pervasive?"


THANK YOU!!! About time someone other than myself asks this question.

Because the NFL started testing in 1987 and MLB took another 15 years to start chasing dopers. Their failure to act has brought deserved criticism. Both leagues are fighting a losing battle against dopers, but at least they are now trying.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by rats60

Because the NFL started testing in 1987 and MLB took another 15 years to start chasing dopers. Their failure to act has brought deserved criticism. Both leagues are fighting a losing battle against dopers, but at least they are now trying.

Does anyone seriously believe there isn't rampant drug use in the NFL despite the testing? The size and agility and speed of the linemen for example are quantum leaps ahead of just a couple of decades ago, this is not just better training methods IMO.

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Does anyone seriously believe there isn't rampant drug use in the NFL despite the testing? The size and agility and speed of the linemen for example are quantum leaps ahead of just a couple of decades ago, this is not just better training methods IMO.

+1, with Peter on this one...

[Jim65]

No way. Rules say lifetime ban, he hasn't served his complete sentence yet

[Joshchisox08]

Pete you forgot to mention that they are in the news every week for a shooting, battery, assault, domestic violence, murder, etc.

So in addition to getting away with PED's and other drugs they get away with all of that as well.

I to this day can't comprehend why anyone would support a league or organization full of criminals that go widely unpunished.

[Huysmans]

Originally Posted by Joshchisox08

Pete you forgot to mention that they are in the news every week for a shooting, battery, assault, domestic violence, murder, etc.

So in addition to getting away with PED's and other drugs they get away with all of that as well.

I to this day can't comprehend why anyone would support a league or organization full of criminals that go widely unpunished.

+1

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Joshchisox08

Pete you forgot to mention that they are in the news every week for a shooting, battery, assault, domestic violence, murder, etc.

So in addition to getting away with PED's and other drugs they get away with all of that as well.

I to this day can't comprehend why anyone would support a league or organization full of criminals that go widely unpunished.

Just my opinion and it's worth less than two cents, but given the essentially violent nature of football, which deny it or not is a large part of its appeal, I don't think we really expect these guys to be normal the way we expect the same of baseball players -- who we relate to on a more personal level, because for the most part they are the same size as us, they don't wear helmets obscuring their faces, etc. I mean can you really relate to a 325 pound lineman under a helmet the way you relate to a baseball player?

[GaryPassamonte]

No. On the field, Pete Rose epitomized what a ballplayer should be. Off the field, he broke the cardinal rule. Rose's case is the biggest tragedy in the history of baseball.

[Joshchisox08]

I suppose you bring up a valid point there Pete. It's just some of the things that make me detest and not be able to relate further to that Organization.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Does anyone seriously believe there isn't rampant drug use in the NFL despite the testing? The size and agility and speed of the linemen for example are quantum leaps ahead of just a couple of decades ago, this is not just better training methods IMO.

Does any believe there isn't rampant drug use in MLB? Every year we see players getting suspended and we know that only a small percentage of cheaters fail drug tests. We only have to look to BALCO and Biogenesis to see the efforts made by cheaters to beat testing.

The heat on MLB comes from ignoring doping and allowing cheaters to thrive while NFL, Olympics, ect. fought dopers. Those players who hid behind the union and doped deserve permanent banishment for the hof.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by rats60

Does any believe there isn't rampant drug use in MLB? Every year we see players getting suspended and we know that only a small percentage of cheaters fail drug tests. We only have to look to BALCO and Biogenesis to see the efforts made by cheaters to beat testing.

The heat on MLB comes from ignoring doping and allowing cheaters to thrive while NFL, Olympics, ect. fought dopers. Those players who hid behind the union and doped deserve permanent banishment for the hof.

Aren't home runs way down though?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Joshchisox08

I suppose you bring up a valid point there Pete. It's just some of the things that make me detest and not be able to relate further to that Organization.

What really bothers me about the NFL is its avoidance of and dancing around the concussion issue and the lip service it pays to caring.

[Joshchisox08]

Well I don't know. People who work at Power Plants know that they may be exposed to health defects.

Players back in the day weren't aware of (at least not to the extent) of what an NFL career could do to their body, but they should be now and they're getting millions as opposed to the earlier players.

Other reason uhhhh how about playing 15 or 16 games (whatever it is) a season and taking FOREVER by playing once a week?

[pbspelly]

Originally Posted by GaryPassamonte

Rose's case is the biggest tragedy in the history of baseball.

Personally, I think Bonds's case may be the biggest tragedy in the history of baseball, if by tragedy you mean one that is self-inflicted (as opposed to someone like Gehrig or Clemente or, say, what happened to Kirby Puckett). Bonds was a first ballot Hall of Famer before he took steroids, but jealousy and hubris too over, and now he will always be tarnished. It's like one of those legends from the Greek myths.

[Joshchisox08]

Personally, I think Bonds's case may be the biggest tragedy in the history of baseball, if by tragedy you mean one that is self-inflicted (as opposed to someone like Gehrig or Clemente or, say, what happened to Kirby Puckett). Bonds was a first ballot Hall of Famer before he took steroids, but jealousy and hubris too over, and now he will always be tarnished. It's like one of those legends from the Greek myths.

How does anyone know when Bonds started taking steroids?

[pbspelly]

Fair point, there's no way to know for sure. But I think most people in baseball believe Bonds did not start taking steroids until sometime after the McGwire/Sosa home run record season. Based on his physique, power surge, and other evidence.

[tschock]

Originally Posted by rats60

The heat on MLB comes from ignoring doping and allowing cheaters to thrive while NFL, Olympics, ect. fought dopers. Those players who hid behind the union and doped deserve permanent banishment for the hof.

So it sounds like you are equating PED use to cheating. Is that a fair assumption? If so, should those who took greenies or cheated in other manners be banished as well?

[Joshchisox08]

Originally Posted by tschock

So it sounds like you are equating PED use to cheating. Is that a fair assumption? If so, should those who took greenies or cheated in other manners be banished as well?

The funny thing is that what was taken by most or at least some of the players was COMPLETLEY LEGAL.

I don't remember nor do I care to research whatever McGwire had taken or had admitted to taking but it was 100% legal during his playing career.

So I think there may be that thin line there. They're being ridiculed as Rose is however, what Rose did WAS ILLEGAL and he damn well knew about it.

[tschock]

Originally Posted by Joshchisox08

The funny thing is that what was taken by most or at least some of the players was COMPLETLEY LEGAL.

I don't remember nor do I care to research whatever McGwire had taken or had admitted to taking but it was 100% legal during his playing career.

So I think there may be that thin line there. They're being ridiculed as Rose is however, what Rose did WAS ILLEGAL and he damn well knew about it.

Exactly! And taking or providing amphetamines without a prescription was a federal crime since 1971. Contrary to what some rosy-colored glass wearers would have you believe, they should be considered as performance enhancing drugs because that is exactly what they did. There are also a number of baseball execs who see them as a bigger problem that steroids as well.

I've posed this question before: If Bonds hit a home run of Clemens, or Clemens struck out Bonds, should that be considered a 'level playing field'? At least if you discounted just those kinds of confrontations, it might make sense. But how do you credit back a strikeout from Clemens to a batter who might not have taken steroids. Or a HR from a pitcher to Bonds. The idea of picking and choosing which records to ignore is just downright silly.

"Simply stating Bonds hit more home runs during his playing career than anyone else in MLB, though this was done during a time of rampant PED and steroid use, including by Bonds himself" or something similar should suffice.

[2dueces]

Every locker room in every sport has a sign that says "You bet on (insert sport here) you lose everything.
He did it, he got caught and he got what he deserves. End of story.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by pbspelly

Fair point, there's no way to know for sure. But I think most people in baseball believe Bonds did not start taking steroids until sometime after the McGwire/Sosa home run record season. Based on his physique, power surge, and other evidence.

He clearly did, but he was equally clearly an obvious HOFer already.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Joshchisox08

The funny thing is that what was taken by most or at least some of the players was COMPLETLEY LEGAL.

I don't remember nor do I care to research whatever McGwire had taken or had admitted to taking but it was 100% legal during his playing career.

So I think there may be that thin line there. They're being ridiculed as Rose is however, what Rose did WAS ILLEGAL and he damn well knew about it.

This is not true. What Bonds, McGwire, etc. took was completely illegal. I think what you are confusing is when McGwire was seen as using Andro in 1998 and when it was revealed later that he took other steroids which were not. Mike Piazza is known to have used Andro when it was legal and there is no evidence of his illegal steroid use. He is getting far more hof support than those who are known to have used illegal steroids. It is similar with greenies.

You claim that greenies are illegal has no support. The federal government has to my knowledge never tried to prosecute teams or players on this issue. They have gone after steroids, BALCO, and cocaine, Pittsburgh drug trials. Teams had doctors to prescribe these and amphetamines are easily obtainable legally. They have been prescribed for diet or ADHD and in general are safe to use, unlike steroids.

Those who are charged with determining hof worthiness have determined that gambling, Joe Jackson, and steroids, Bonds and Clemens, are offenses that exclude offenders from the hof. It seems perfectly reasonable to me. Not all offenses are equal, but you want to even include players like Aaron, who admitted to trying greenies once, or Schmidt, who tried them a couple times, with hardcore dopers like Bonds or McGwire. That is what doesn't make sense to me.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by pbspelly

Fair point, there's no way to know for sure. But I think most people in baseball believe Bonds did not start taking steroids until sometime after the McGwire/Sosa home run record season. Based on his physique, power surge, and other evidence.

Bonds' power surge began in 1993 when he hit more HRs than Willie McCovey and more HRs than Mays, except 1965, ever in Candlestick. And 1994 when he was on pace to break Mays' team record for HRs and teammate Matt Williams was on pace to break Maris' MLB HR record.

[Kenny Cole]

The claim that greenies are illegal has "no support"? Seriously? Perhaps you should look at 21 U.S.C. Sections 801 et seq. Amphetamines are a Schedule II controlled dangerous substance. Whether the feds prosecute baseball or those who sell or distribute them without a prescription to do so is wholly irrelevant to that issue of whether that is legal or not.

[Peter_Spaeth]

The "et seq" is key.

[Peter_Spaeth]

http://keepingscore.blogs.time.com/2.../slide/1986-2/

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Kenny Cole

The claim that greenies are illegal has "no support"? Seriously? Perhaps you should look at 21 U.S.C. Sections 801 et seq. Amphetamines are a Schedule II controlled dangerous substance. Whether the feds prosecute baseball or those who sell or distribute them without a prescription to do so is wholly irrelevant to that issue of whether that is legal or not.

Either Mays or Aaron described these being available by the handful on communal tables in training rooms. I seriously doubt these were all by prescription.

[Joshchisox08]

Yes Android was what I was talking about. I'm unaware of anything he took that was illegal.

Either way I'm not ashamed to say I liked and still like McGwire and Sosa. They did a Shit ton for the sport after a strike and they were pampered and then shit all over after MLB reaped the benefits. For the 98 season alone they'd have my vote well over Rose.

[KCRfan1]

Loved McGwire! I've mentioned this before, but that AS HR contest at Fenway with McGwire at the plate was epic! Just turn down the sound so you don't have to listen to Berman. Agreed that McGwire and Sosa did a ton for the sport, and brought fan and non-fan interest back in the game.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by rats60

Bonds' power surge began in 1993 when he hit more HRs than Willie McCovey and more HRs than Mays, except 1965, ever in Candlestick. And 1994 when he was on pace to break Mays' team record for HRs and teammate Matt Williams was on pace to break Maris' MLB HR record.

Thank you.

I've long believed that Bonds started doing roids before the 1993 season.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Tabe

Thank you.

I've long believed that Bonds started doing roids before the 1993 season.

Or maybe he was just a great hitter, who got even better in old age after roiding. Certainly his then live-in said he started after the McGwire Sosa year because he was so pissed off that they were getting all the attention when he was the greater ballplayer.