What NY Yankee should be in the HOF?

[mattsey9]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I think the Yankee factor got Joe Gordon in. Does he really get in with the same puny stats playing for the Browns?

One of the big digs against Ron Santo was that he never made the playoffs. So it can work both ways.

[cyseymour]

Originally Posted by Al C.risafulli

Last I checked, there were 13 third basemen in the Hall of Fame, and Graig Nettles was a better player than several of them. Nettles played in an era when offensive stats were depressed in general, and he was one of the game's better offensive players. His defense was magnificent, and if his career hadn't overlapped Brooks Robinson's, he would have won far more than one Gold Glove.

Ultimately he gets a raw deal because his career doesn't include the kind of cheap stats that most HOF voters look for (high batting average, number of awards, etc), but statistically, he's one of the best players to ever play his position.

-Al

+1

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by packs

Yes. He missed years due to the war and according to Baseball Reference he is the 16th best second baseman to ever play the game. He got elected over 30 years after his death. It's not like it was a Frankie Frisch situation.

He only missed two years. He hit .268 with 1500 plus hits. His closest comparables are Bret Boone, Jose Valentin and Bill Nicholson.

The writers who saw him play obviously thought he was HOF material.
Hall of Fame
1945 BBWAA ( 0.4%)
1955 BBWAA ( 0.4%)
1956 BBWAA ( 2.1%)
1958 BBWAA ( 4.1%)
1960 BBWAA ( 4.1%)
1962 BBWAA ( 2.5%)
1964 BBWAA (14.9%)
1964 Run Off ( 0.5%)
1966 BBWAA (10.3%)
1967 BBWAA (22.6%)
1967 Run Off ( 4.2%)
1968 BBWAA (27.2%)
1969 BBWAA (28.5%)
1970 BBWAA (26.3%)

[packs]

The two years he missed are on average the best statistical years a player has, ages 29 and 30.

Of the 19 HOF second basemen Gordon has a better WAR than 9 of them, 10 if you count Bucky Harris and 11 if you consider Jeff Kent a future HOFer.

That puts him in the top 10 all time amongst HOF second baseman. That's not a puny career.

[tcdyess]

As big a Yankee fan as I am, I'm not really sure anyone else deserves to be in the HOF except one....

The Boss!!! Like him or hate him, you can not deny what he has done for the game, he brought it into the modern era (like it or not) and helped make the game more successful and popular. Sure, he was egocentric and loved the publicity that came with owing the most storied franchise in history (sorry, couln't resist), but he was partly responsible for growing the game... period. Not to mention everything he did philanthropically that hardly ever gets mentioned. His contributions to the game at levels far below MLB have also helped the game grow.

Player wise as much as love Thurman and Donny Baseball, I don't think they should be in, but baseball wise.... The Boss should be a shoe in....

Tim

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by Al C.risafulli

Last I checked, there were 13 third basemen in the Hall of Fame, and Graig Nettles was a better player than several of them. Nettles played in an era when offensive stats were depressed in general, and he was one of the game's better offensive players. His defense was magnificent, and if his career hadn't overlapped Brooks Robinson's, he would have won far more than one Gold Glove.

Ultimately he gets a raw deal because his career doesn't include the kind of cheap stats that most HOF voters look for (high batting average, number of awards, etc), but statistically, he's one of the best players to ever play his position.

-Al

I think Buddy Bell had just as much to do with Nettles not winning more Gold Gloves, as Brooksie.

[D. Bergin]

As a Yankee fan, I'm not exactly outraged by anybody not in there. I grew up in my formative years with Donnie Baseball as my favorite Yankee also.

I think I'm a little more annoyed with how easily Kirby Puckett got in with identical stats, rather then miffed that Donnie is not in there.

Never had a problem with Maris or Munson not being in. They are legendary for their own reasons, but I don't think they need the HOF to qualify their careers.

Carl Mays as somebody mentioned already is probably the biggest head-scratcher to me, and he bounced around enough, a lot of fans don't necessarily count him as a "Yankee"...........plus we all know how unlikable he was.

[beachhead2]

But I'm surprised Bernie Williams is seldom in this conversation. Especially in comparison to Mattingly. His peak wasn't as good as Mattingly's but his career numbers are remarkably similar. Williams also played a key defensive position on 6 AL pennant teams and 4 WS winners. That said, I'm not saying he should be in. I'm just surprised I never hear him mentioned.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

I think Buddy Bell had just as much to do with Nettles not winning more Gold Gloves, as Brooksie.

If kids didn't get very excited over pulling his card when he was playing, he's probably not HOF material (Nettles). But then again - Niekro got in.

Also, awards and a high batting average are sort of a good thing, although I'm not a huge Ichiro fan, as he didn't do much other than sell tickets.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by beachhead2

But I'm surprised Bernie Williams is seldom in this conversation. Especially in comparison to Mattingly. His peak wasn't as good as Mattingly's but his career numbers are remarkably similar. Williams also played a key defensive position on 6 AL pennant teams and 4 WS winners. That said, I'm not saying he should be in. I'm just surprised I never hear him mentioned.

Great player, but Bernies numbers took a tumble the last 4 years of his career, and he's similar to several other OF's who never really got a sniff at the HOF. Ellis Burks, Fred Lynn, Bobby Bonds.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by Runscott

If kids didn't get very excited over pulling his card when he was playing, he's probably not HOF material (Nettles). But then again - Niekro got in.

Also, awards and a high batting average are sort of a good thing, although I'm not a huge Ichiro fan, as he didn't do much other than sell tickets.

I don't know. I remember getting really excited pulling Ron Kittle, Steve Sax and Dave Righetti cards back in the day.

If you would have asked me back in 1984, I would have told you I was sure that Kent Hrbek would be a sure-fire future Hall of Famer.

[Runscott]

So, Koufax has 6 consecutive less than average years, one G+ year, 5 great years, then quits.

Mattingly has a 12 AB year, a .283 part-time year, 6 excellent years, then...
...does NOT quit, but plays 6 more years - all above average, but not excellent.

My argument would be that, given Koufax' arthritis, if he had played the 6 additional years that Mattingly did after his prime, he might have totally sucked during that period.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

I don't know. I remember getting really excited pulling Ron Kittle, Steve Sax and Dave Righetti cards back in the day.

If you would have asked me back in 1984, I would have told you I was sure that Kent Hrbek would be a sure-fire future Hall of Famer.

Man, you got excited easily. I can understand, as a kid, getting excited about the 'could haves' that didn't pan out; after all, they were great during the period when you were watching them. For me it was Frank Howard, Sam McDowell, Tony Conigliaro, Don Drysdale - great players when I was watching them.

What I can't understand is the guys getting into the HOF who never excited anyone - Phil Niekro, Don Sutton (for the most part). Sure, you wanted a card of these guys, but it wasn't going to bother you too much if you didn't get one. Guys like Mays, Maris, Aaron and Mantle - you HAD to have them.

[johnmh71]

How about Luis Tiant? He only pitched with the Yanks for a short time, but he does have better stats than 10 pitchers already in there. Catfish has almost identical stats.

[refz]

Originally Posted by kcohen

The top of the list IMO should be Allie Reynolds with an 8 year run of brilliance in a Yankee uniform. .630 career winning percentage, pitched in 6 WS with 7-2 record and 4 saves.

Can't understand why he isn't in.

+1 Reynolds has my vote, good mention

[Peter_Spaeth]

Baseball reference's scoring system ranks Allie Reynolds as the 391st best pitcher ever.

[npa589]

With regard to the Yankees, I've never understood the pass for their stadium. For some crazy reason, Wrigley Field is recognized as a band box, where it is easy to hit home runs - so HR stats are overlooked. Yet, half the year, and on any given day, it is nearly impossible to hit a home run (unless you're juiced up). Every day in the New Yankee Stadium and in the old one gave hitters the opportunity to pull or push a pop fly into the bleachers. Maris's season was magical, but so was the porch that played perfectly to his swing.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by npa589

With regard to the Yankees, I've never understood the pass for their stadium. For some crazy reason, Wrigley Field is recognized as a band box, where it is easy to hit home runs - so HR stats are overlooked. Yet, half the year, and on any given day, it is nearly impossible to hit a home run (unless you're juiced up). Every day in the New Yankee Stadium and in the old one gave hitters the opportunity to pull or push a pop fly into the bleachers. Maris's season was magical, but so was the porch that played perfectly to his swing.

I never heard of HR stats in Wrigley Field being overlooked.

Coors Field is pretty much the only park that players get penalized for playing in when it comes to HOF or general prestige.

It's the PED's of ballparks.

I think everybody else gets a pass.

Yankee Stadium also ruined many a left hander who fell in love with that short porch and all of a sudden forgot how to hit pitches on the outer half of the plate, and right handers who weren't quite as strong as the Dave Winfields or Mickey Mantles of the world, to put the ball out on that side of the park.

[SteveMitchell]

Originally Posted by T206Fan

Can Elston Howard get a little love for the hall?

12 time allstar
2 gold gloves
1 mvp
4 World series titles

I'm impressed with Howard's numbers and have long believed Shocker should be in the Hall of Fame. Munson always impressed me by his drive - including what appeared to be quick feet on the bases. I might go for Thurman if I studied his record more closely but right now, I'm on the fence regarding his candidacy.

[Nashvol]

Originally Posted by npa589

With regard to the Yankees, I've never understood the pass for their stadium. For some crazy reason, Wrigley Field is recognized as a band box, where it is easy to hit home runs - so HR stats are overlooked. Yet, half the year, and on any given day, it is nearly impossible to hit a home run (unless you're juiced up). Every day in the New Yankee Stadium and in the old one gave hitters the opportunity to pull or push a pop fly into the bleachers. Maris's season was magical, but so was the porch that played perfectly to his swing.

Thirty one of Maris' home runs were hit in other parks.

[npa589]

Originally Posted by Nashvol

Thirty one of Maris' home runs were hit in other parks.

Fair point... --- I'm just a completely biased Cubs fan, which, due to lack of success, is a franchise that serves as the antithesis of the Yankees. If I had to pin my hopes on any argument for more Yankees being in the HOF than should be - it would be due to the postseason success.


And about Wrigley's HR stats being overlooked, I'm mainly referring to my frustration listening to certain writers speaking of why Santo didn't deserve to be in the hall of fame. Since WAR has been mentioned, look at his career WAR rankings for position players and who he is ahead of, among other things...

I never really understood it, and attributed it to him being a Cub in that era of futility. When I look at the Chicago Cubs roster of 1969, and know that they didn't even make the playoffs, I then realize that the Cubs will never win a World Series.

To get back on course, and backtracking on my tangent, I would say Nettles should get discussion...

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by npa589

Fair point... --- I'm just a completely biased Cubs fan, which, due to lack of success, is a franchise that serves as the antithesis of the Yankees. If I had to pin my hopes on any argument for more Yankees being in the HOF than should be - it would be due to the postseason success.


And about Wrigley's HR stats being overlooked, I'm mainly referring to my frustration listening to certain writers speaking of why Santo didn't deserve to be in the hall of fame. Since WAR has been mentioned, look at his career WAR rankings for position players and who he is ahead of, among other things...

I never really understood it, and attributed it to him being a Cub in that era of futility. When I look at the Chicago Cubs roster of 1969, and know that they didn't even make the playoffs, I then realize that the Cubs will never win a World Series.

To get back on course, and backtracking on my tangent, I would say Nettles should get discussion...

I'm a Yankee fan but I sympathize. I've been a proponent of Santo since I first started memorizing the back of baseball cards as a little tyke in the late 70's, and realizing early on that players are compared to other players at their position in their league.

I also never quite understood the disdain that Billy Williams often receives. Sure, he was an unassuming ballplayer, and kids probably didn't get too excited when they pulled his card out of a pack, but he was just a model of consistency, year after year, during an era that favored pitchers more then most times.