PWCC Boggles the Mind. New Auctions

[Bobbycee]

In case you haven't heard, the PWCC website has declared that their regular Monthly auction has gone away to make room for their new Weekly Auction. Now you can bid on cards "every day of the week".

The Weekly Auction now.. get this.. includes a 20% Buyer's Premium on every sale. I don't get it, but them not getting it, makes sense.

[ullmandds]

i like the idea of the 24/7 marketplace...in this day and age...but the 20% bp...I'll pass!

[mrreality68]

I do not like either the 24/7 card auctions or the 20 % BP

But for those that it works for so be it

So I will respectfully pass

[judsonhamlin]

If they only auction 95% of the original card, will they reduce the BP by 5% as well?

[Snapolit1]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

i like the idea of the 24/7 marketplace...in this day and age...but the 20% bp...I'll pass!

24/7 marketplace. Wow. Unprecedented. Sort of like eBay.

[Peter_Spaeth]

People just don't get that the BP is irrelevant except to the consignor. Factor it into what you bid. This has been discussed ad nauseum.

[x2drich2000]

If this was any other auction company, would we care or make a big deal of it? and how is this any different than HA's weekly auction that they've been holding for years? 20% is pretty much the hobby norm for BP so no different than what most other companies are doing.

[Snapolit1]

Originally Posted by x2drich2000

If this was any other auction company, would we care or make a big deal of it? and how is this any different than HA's weekly auction that they've been holding for years? 20% is pretty much the hobby norm for BP so no different than what most other companies are doing.

I guess just odd in that all of us know them as an eBay seller where we weren’t charged a premium . When they said they were leaving eBay to create their own marketplace I’d didnt figure they’d be charging a buyers premium. But as Peter says shouldn’t affect a buyer if you plan accordingly.

[Peter_Spaeth]

They have to earn a fee. It's the same difference if they take it off the hammer price and call it a seller's fee, or add it to the hammer price and call it a buyer's premium, because any rational buyer will bid factoring in the premium and will end up paying the same either way.

Simply stated, rather than bidding 120 for an item on ebay, you would bid 100 knowing 20 is going to be added.

Why buyer's premiums remain an issue for people really is beyond me. They're an issue for consignors to be sure, because they affect their take by depressing hammer price, not for buyers.

[Flintboy]

Not trying to go into a deep discussion about this issue, but if I’m going to get nailed with a BP then I should receive top quality service. Websites routinely crashing, AH’s bidding on their own cards, listing cards that are knowingly altered, etc. I have to pay 20% extra for that? It seems like everything is very difficult bidding with a true auction house, it really shouldn’t be. Hard pass on bidding with PWCC.

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

They have to earn a fee. It's the same difference if they take it off the hammer price and call it a seller's fee, or add it to the hammer price and call it a buyer's premium, because any rational buyer will bid factoring in the premium and will end up paying the same either way.

Simply stated, rather than bidding 120 for an item on ebay, you would bid 100 knowing 20 is going to be added.

Why buyer's premiums remain an issue for people really is beyond me. They're an issue for consignors to be sure, because they affect their take by depressing hammer price, not for buyers.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Flintboy

Not trying to go into a deep discussion about this issue, but if I’m going to get nailed with a BP then I should receive top quality service. Websites routinely crashing, AH’s bidding on their own cards, listing cards that are knowingly altered, etc. I have to pay 20% extra for that? It seems like everything is very difficult bidding with a true auction house, it really shouldn’t be. Hard pass on bidding with PWCC.

I think you should expect that service from anyone you are bidding good money with, whether or not they call part of your payment a premium or not.

[25801wv]

I have never consigned with them but I imagine they were charging seller fees than 10% when they were on ebay and I assume they paid the ebay and paypal fees out of that 10%. Now they get their own website and charge 20% fee. 100% increase. Must be a nice business to own. Good luck to them.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by 25801wv

I have never consigned with them but I imagine they were charging seller fees than 10% when they were on ebay and I assume they paid the ebay and paypal fees out of that 10%. Now they get their own website and charge 20% fee. 100% increase. Must be a nice business to own. Good luck to them.

I would imagine that between doubling their effective seller's fee and no longer being visible as they were on ebay, they would not keep the same level of consignments?

[Carter08]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I would imagine that between doubling their effective seller's fee and no longer being visible as they were on ebay, they would not keep the same level of consignments?

Agree. They seem to have their stuff together. Probably figured volume will decrease slightly but price per sale goes up.

[Tao_Moko]

Originally Posted by 25801wv

I have never consigned with them but I imagine they were charging seller fees than 10% when they were on ebay and I assume they paid the ebay and paypal fees out of that 10%. Now they get their own website and charge 20% fee. 100% increase. Must be a nice business to own. Good luck to them.

I agree. It's hard to run a profitable business, pay fair or above avg wages to retain staff, please both suppliers and clients while maintaining a high level of customer care. If the consignors are pleased then cards are selling because buyers are paying. They disclose the fee up front and providing supply to meet demand. A 20%gp is not substantial.

[Rhotchkiss]

Originally Posted by x2drich2000

If this was any other auction company, would we care or make a big deal of it? and how is this any different than HA's weekly auction that they've been holding for years? 20% is pretty much the hobby norm for BP so no different than what most other companies are doing.

+1. 20% BP is standard; other AHs run weekly auctions; if you don’t like, don’t buy. Frankly, this is a big nothing-burger and hardly “mind-boggling” in my opinion.

[Bobbycee]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

They have to earn a fee. It's the same difference if they take it off the hammer price and call it a seller's fee, or add it to the hammer price and call it a buyer's premium, because any rational buyer will bid factoring in the premium and will end up paying the same either way.

Simply stated, rather than bidding 120 for an item on ebay, you would bid 100 knowing 20 is going to be added.

Why buyer's premiums remain an issue for people really is beyond me. They're an issue for consignors to be sure, because they affect their take by depressing hammer price, not for buyers.

It does make a difference Peter. For those on a relative card budget, 20% could mean paying significantly more for a card. You gave an example of winning a card for $100 but now having to pay $120 with BP. What if you win a card for $400, now it becomes a $480 card, etc. That will limit the smaller collector who may want to bid on multiple cards. I for one, don't like forking over an extra 20%.

Maybe this keeps PWCC in business. They are certainly scrambling around lately, quite clumsily. They had a brief niche, like Ebay. Now they are like all the other auction houses & crappy servicen thrown in too.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Bobbycee

It does make a difference Peter. For those on a relative card budget, 20% could mean paying significantly more for a card. You gave an example of winning a card for $100 but now having to pay $120 with BP. What if you win a card for $400, now it becomes a $480 card, etc. That will limit the smaller collector who may want to bid on multiple cards. I for one, don't like forking over an extra 20%.

Maybe this keeps PWCC in business. They are certainly scrambling around lately, quite clumsily. They had a brief niche, like Ebay. Now they are like all the other auction houses & crappy servicen thrown in too.

I am sorry you really don't understand how this works. Read what I posted again. The same card you "win" for 400 (plus BP) would have cost you 480 on ebay because people would have bid 20 percent MORE if there was no BP. It's a 480 card in both worlds. You aren't saving anything on ebay or paying more to PWCC.

[Carter08]

Originally Posted by Bobbycee

It does make a difference Peter. For those on a relative card budget, 20% could mean paying significantly more for a card. You gave an example of winning a card for $100 but now having to pay $120 with BP. What if you win a card for $400, now it becomes a $480 card, etc. That will limit the smaller collector who may want to bid on multiple cards. I for one, don't like forking over an extra 20%.

Maybe this keeps PWCC in business. They are certainly scrambling around lately, quite clumsily. They had a brief niche, like Ebay. Now they are like all the other auction houses & crappy servicen thrown in too.

I think the thought is of you value you a card at $100 you now bid it at $82ish. From the buyer side really no difference. Maybe I’m missing something.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Carter08

I think the thought is of you value you a card at $100 you now bid it at $82ish. From the buyer side really no difference. Maybe I’m missing something.

Exactly.

[JeremyW]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Exactly.

All premiums are paid by the consignor. Unfortunately, 20% seems to be the norm.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by JeremyW

All premiums are paid by the consignor. Unfortunately, 20% seems to be the norm.

Right, and we can debate if that's too high, but the angst by BIDDERS about buyers' premiums is completely misplaced and reflects a basic lack of understanding unfortunately.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I am sorry you really don't understand how this works. Read what I posted again. The same card you "win" for 400 (plus BP) would have cost you 480 on ebay because people would have bid 20 percent MORE if there was no BP. It's a 480 card in both worlds. You aren't saving anything on ebay or paying more to PWCC.

Here I thought the buyers premium was just a way for the AH to pay the consignor less than the real sale price.

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by Bobbycee

It does make a difference Peter. For those on a relative card budget, 20% could mean paying significantly more for a card. You gave an example of winning a card for $100 but now having to pay $120 with BP. What if you win a card for $400, now it becomes a $480 card, etc. That will limit the smaller collector who may want to bid on multiple cards. I for one, don't like forking over an extra 20%.

Maybe this keeps PWCC in business. They are certainly scrambling around lately, quite clumsily. They had a brief niche, like Ebay. Now they are like all the other auction houses & crappy servicen thrown in too.

I think most...if not all buyers keep the BP in mind when bidding and factor it in as a cost. If cards had absolute values, and they don't, then the high bid would be placed at a point where the added BP would take it to that magic absolute value. In your example if the card had an absolute value of $400 and there was a 20% BP then your high bid could only be $333.

[Yoda]

Ebay auction listings for pre-war and vintage have dried up since PWCC was shown the door. BIN's are even more ludicrous than before. Even with Moser and Co. and known shilling, it was nice not to know there was an extra 20% added on if you won a PWCC auction.

[Kidnapped18]

I mostly like the changes that PWCC has made except the 20% BP
Not a fan of the BP since they started out not charging it in their monthly auctions
They initially had a scale that they paid the sellers a percentage of the final price
But like Peter said you just need to factor the BP into the price you are willing to pay now

[Bobbycee]

Originally Posted by Yoda

Ebay auction listings for pre-war and vintage have dried up since PWCC was shown the door. BIN's are even more ludicrous than before. Even with Moser and Co. and known shilling, it was nice not to know there was an extra 20% added on if you won a PWCC auction.

This is how I view it.

[Mjpadilla84]

It’s not a flat 20% commission, it adjusts depending on the sale price. It seems fair to me

[Mjpadilla84]

The buyer premium of 20% is irrelevant, you still bid on what you think the card is worth keeping in mind the extra 20%. This is standard for pretty much all auctions

[Exhibitman]

Well, I hear they slash their, er, commissions...

[chadeast]

The issue that many have with the BP, I would guess, is that auction house hopes that you don't factor it in when you're in the midst of bidding, since it is invisible during the auction. I give Lee a lot of credit for showing the total bid with BP at Sterling. Many auction houses don't do this, though they very easily could. Ask yourself why they don't. It's in the hope that bidders feel like they're paying less in the moment (or perhaps are new and don't know about the 20% BP yet), thus hopefully resulting in higher closing prices. It could be argued that it costs even the winners who are fully aware of the BP, if they are bidding against someone who is either not aware of it or is aware but still influenced in the moment by the 'lower' price (without BP) being displayed.

[Yoda]

Originally Posted by Mjpadilla84

The buyer premium of 20% is irrelevant, you still bid on what you think the card is worth keeping in mind the extra 20%. This is standard for pretty much all auctions

I agree, but in the frenzy of an auction closing with extended bidding and passions running high, it is hard, in the heat of the moment, to be rational and factor in that 20% into your total acquisition budget.
Like the famous Mark Twain quote, "An erection has no conscience." Cards do provoke animal instincts.

[icurnmedic]

Originally Posted by chadeast

I give Lee a lot of credit for showing the total bid with BP at Sterling. .

Agree 100%

[Dead-Ball-Hitter]

Originally Posted by Flintboy

Not trying to go into a deep discussion about this issue, but if I’m going to get nailed with a BP then I should receive top quality service. Websites routinely crashing, AH’s bidding on their own cards, listing cards that are knowingly altered, etc. I have to pay 20% extra for that? It seems like everything is very difficult bidding with a true auction house, it really shouldn’t be. Hard pass on bidding with PWCC.

You said it all, Brian. Auction houses differ in the services they offer. Regular communication after the sale, premium packaging, returns made easy, hi-rez scans sent in email, etc. PWCC charges the premium but gives an EBAY experience. an EBAY experience, i.e. getting one tracking email, hit or miss packaging quality and cheap post office shipping = no premium. Charge me a BP, make it a premium experience. I bought an altered card from them so I'm still not happy with Brent and his company, thus I guess I'm NOT a PWCC fan.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Would you be happier if there was no premium but you had to bid 20 percent higher to win?

[rugbymarine]

Originally Posted by Yoda

I agree, but in the frenzy of an auction closing with extended bidding and passions running high, it is hard, in the heat of the moment, to be rational and factor in that 20% into your total acquisition budget.
Like the famous Mark Twain quote, "An erection has no conscience." Cards do provoke animal instincts.

I have found myself getting wrapped up into this frenzy at the end of an auction.

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Would you be happier if there was no premium but you had to bid 20 percent higher to win?

Like everyone else, I am just elated that PWCC is not in prison and can still offer me cards, altered or not and shilled or not, so that I can get that much closer to completing my collection. I would pay as much as a 30% BP to boot! I mean I as hard as I look, it seems PWCC is the only seller offering cards for sale in an auction format. Without him, we might have to collect stamps or action figures.

Merry Xmas and Happy New Year to everyone working us...I mean working hard for us...at PWCC.

[Dead-Ball-Hitter]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Would you be happier if there was no premium but you had to bid 20 percent higher to win?

I think many of us agree with you in theory Peter. But as a few have stated, in practice, likely many of us have failed to fully do the "mental math" and thus have overpaid. I believe, as expressed by others, that's not uncommon in the heat of the moment. And while I agree that would be the buyer's fault, I'm confident the AH is counting on such lapses to inflate their margin. Why else would most AH's not display the true cost of purchase?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Dead-Ball-Hitter

I think many of us agree with you in theory Peter. But as a few have stated, in practice, likely many of us have failed to fully do the "mental math" and thus have overpaid. I believe, as expressed by others, that's not uncommon in the heat of the moment. And while I agree that would be the buyer's fault, I'm confident the AH is counting on such lapses to inflate their margin. Why else would most AH's not display the true cost of purchase?

I have been caught up in the heat of the moment many times and doubtless bid too high but that doesn't mean I somehow FORGOT there was a BP. Badly wanting a card doesn't make one brain dead.

[oldjudge]

I think auction houses should start rebating a portion of the buyers commission to buyers. Again, this theoretically should have no impact on buyers net bids, but somehow it would make me feel better.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

Like everyone else, I am just elated that PWCC is not in prison and can still offer me cards, altered or not and shilled or not, so that I can get that much closer to completing my collection. I would pay as much as a 30% BP to boot! I mean I as hard as I look, it seems PWCC is the only seller offering cards for sale in an auction format. Without him, we might have to collect stamps or action figures.

Merry Xmas and Happy New Year to everyone working us...I mean working hard for us...at PWCC.

My thoughts as well. If Covid, Inflation and PWCC all fade away in 2022, it will be the best year ever!

That said... I can't believe the level of "debate" over the Buyers Premium. As much as I dislike this particular seller, you cannot begrudge them standard operating costs that virtually all of their competitors also employ. Just factor in the costs and bid accordingly.

[oldjudge]

I have no problem with auction houses who produce a nice catalog charging a 20% buyers premium. Catalog production and mailing costs are high. I do have a problem with on line auctions charging that. Again, does it affect my bids-no. I just somehow find it offensive.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

I have no problem with auction houses who produce a nice catalog charging a 20% buyers premium. Catalog production and mailing costs are high. I do have a problem with on line auctions charging that. Again, does it affect my bids-no. I just somehow find it offensive.

+1

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

I have no problem with auction houses who produce a nice catalog charging a 20% buyers premium. Catalog production and mailing costs are high. I do have a problem with on line auctions charging that. Again, does it affect my bids-no. I just somehow find it offensive.

Again, it only affects consignors, and if they thought it was too high they would vote with their feet.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Right, and we can debate if that's too high, but the angst by BIDDERS about buyers' premiums is completely misplaced and reflects a basic lack of understanding unfortunately.

I joined this forum 9 years ago, and the "old timers" back then were sick of this topic. Nine years later, and we still have to explain it. Ad Nauseam doesn't even do justice to how often this topic has been raised and explained.

[Steve D]

To me, the biggest change will be when payments are due.

Up to now, winners could wait until the entire auction ended at the end of the month, and then have five days to make payment. This worked great, as I, and many others, get paid once a month. You could win an auction on, say, the 12th of the month, and then wait until the end of the month when you get paid, to send in your payment; allowing you to get a card you may not have been able to get had payment been due sooner.

Now, with the change to weekly auctions ending every Sunday, payments will be due more often, eliminating this payment "float". It looks like you'll still have ten days after the auction, to make your payment, but in many cases, you won't be able to wait until the 1st day of the following month.

Steve

[Snapolit1]

I've glanced at PWCC 3 or 4 times since this summer. Not registered with them and just wanted to see what vintage they were rolling out. Massively unimpressed. I'll stick to LOTG, Heritage, Brockelman, Collectors Connection, Huggins & Scott, Hunts, Hakes for memorabilia, and a few others.

[Snapolit1]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I have been caught up in the heat of the moment many times and doubtless bid too high but that doesn't mean I somehow FORGOT there was a BP. Badly wanting a card doesn't make one brain dead.

There is something of course counter intuitive in agreeing to pay a certain price for an item and then receiving a bill for 30% more (BP, tax, shipping). Do I forget about it? No. Do I always have it top of mind? No. Many auctions I don't go in with a fixed idea that I'm spending $3885 and not a penny more. And when you see heating bidding it's easy to think "hey maybe this is worth mote than I thought. Other people want it too. . . " All I ask is that the AH post at time of bidding what the actual price with BP will be. Don't think that's unreasonable to ask.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

There is something of course counter intuitive in agreeing to pay a certain price for an item and then receiving a bill for 30% more (BP, tax, shipping). Do I forget about it? No. Do I always have it top of mind? No. Many auctions I don't go in with a fixed idea that I'm spending $3885 and not a penny more. And when you see heating bidding it's easy to think "hey maybe this is worth mote than I thought. Other people want it too. . . " All I ask is that the AH post at time of bidding what the actual price with BP will be. Don't think that's unreasonable to ask.

How hard is it to figure out? One simple calculation. Geez. And when one has bid in countless auctions how can one not have the BP and extras in mind? It's not like any auction doesn't charge a BP. I dunno Steve, shaking my head at this one.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

I've glanced at PWCC 3 or 4 times since this summer. Not registered with them and just wanted to see what vintage they were rolling out. Massively unimpressed. I'll stick to LOTG, Heritage, Brockelman, Collectors Connection, Huggins & Scott, Hunts, Hakes for memorabilia, and a few others.

One wonders how many people did the same. A fair number, I suspect. How it impacts them in the long run, we'll see. Brent may have bigger problems still, although it's sure been a long time in the works.