OT: Michael Jordan Mania

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by japhi

There was a sub a few years back that had 3 86 Jordan 10's in one submission. Hardly a rare card if you can hit 3 dimes in one submission.

There is a lot of 13 of them for sale right now ffs.

Card is massively manipulated, multiple guys own multiple copies and it is ridiculously easy to control the price on this card.

I wonder, too, how many have been "helped" into that 10 holder. A card doctor favorite, I imagine.

LOL the subheading on the lot of 13 -- YOU CAN CONTROL THE MARKET!

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by Snowman

This is the 52 Mantle of basketball cards. They're not exactly super common. Not in high grade at least.

Sure they are. There are dozens of them on Ebay at any given time in 9 or 10. There's 16 PSA 10s on Ebay right now in four lots. If somebody wants a PSA 9 or 10, they can have one anytime they want.

[Snapolit1]

Originally Posted by Snowman

They ran a Michael Jordan quarterly special and are grading those cards now. Of course there's a lot. But these aren't 1986 Fleer Jordans. Literally zero of them.

OK. I stand corrected. Thanks.

[MattyC]

Just for perspective, there are over a thousand more 1986 Fleer Jordans in Mint 9 PSA holders alone (2800) as there are 1952 Topps Mantles in all PSA grades (~1700), not taking the handful of PSA/DNA signed examples into account. I'd imagine the spread gets much wider factoring in Jordans deemed mint by BGS.

[Schlesinj]

Basketball is huge around the world and I suspect we are seeing international appeal to one of the most recognized faces in the world for the last 35 years.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Informal poll, who here has shipped a basketball card overseas. Anyone? I keep hearing this story, but have seen no evidence to back it up.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Informal poll, who here has shipped a basketball card overseas. Anyone? I keep hearing this story, but have seen no evidence to back it up.

I've been hearing it for a good 15-20 years since AT LEAST the day Yao Ming joined the league.

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Not only that, but assuming an honest auction, there must have been a second bidder who wanted it ALMOST as much? Too much to believe.

That's the part I find most incredible. A buy-it-now would seem relatively easy to believe. Straight auction? No way.

[japhi]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I wonder, too, how many have been "helped" into that 10 holder. A card doctor favorite, I imagine.

LOL the subheading on the lot of 13 -- YOU CAN CONTROL THE MARKET!

The guy that hit the three is a known card doctor and had been buying 8s and 9s in volume. 100% chance those three had a haircut prior to submission.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by japhi

The guy that hit the three is a known card doctor and had been buying 8s and 9s in volume. 100% chance those three had a haircut prior to submission.

I suspect it's the same one rumored to own several dozen of them.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Informal poll, who here has shipped a basketball card overseas. Anyone? I keep hearing this story, but have seen no evidence to back it up.

I don't sell a ton of cards, but the majority of the ones I have sold are basketball cards. I've definitely sold a lot of them to people overseas. I would guess that 20% or more of my basketball card sales on ebay go to international buyers. Especially ultra modern stuff like Luka and Zion Rookies or Michael Jordan, Lebron, and Kobe.

[packs]

Taking a risk shipping them though, no?

[Bestdj777]

Originally Posted by packs

Taking a risk shipping them though, no?

With Global Shipping there is no risk. If you get it to eBay in the States it’s on eBay once it leaves. I buy and sell art in the UK and had a couple of things damaged in shipment. For the one I bought through Global Shipping, the seller kept their money, I kept the print, and eBay refunded my money in its entirety given the damage.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Global shipping is a great thing. Just send it to Kentucky and ebay does the rest.

[Gorditadogg]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Informal poll, who here has shipped a basketball card overseas. Anyone? I keep hearing this story, but have seen no evidence to back it up.

I collected a lot of 1990s basketball inserts. I did a bunch of trading with collectors in China, Hong Kong and Australia. I think Jordan was very popular in China, probably still is.

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[Gorditadogg]

Originally Posted by Eric72

That's the part I find most incredible. A buy-it-now would seem relatively easy to believe. Straight auction? No way.

I don't think it's hard to understand at all. The card has provenance, it was just pulled from a pack so no doctoring, and it is arguably the best of all PSA 10 Jordan rookiess. If you are a high end collector do you want to be one of 100 or do you want to have the #1 best example?



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[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Gorditadogg

I don't think it's hard to understand at all. The card has provenance, it was just pulled from a pack so no doctoring, and it is arguably the best of all PSA 10 Jordan rookiess. If you are a high end collector do you want to be one of 100 or do you want to have the #1 best example?



Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

And who has examined all the PSA 10 Jordans to be in a position to make any such determination? This isn't like saying the card is the best of the FOUR 52T Mantle 10s. How many are there again? Oh wait, 319. I respect your knowledge but that doesn't sound at all persuasive to me.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

And who has examined all the PSA 10 Jordans to be in a position to make any such determination? This isn't like saying the card is the best of the FOUR 52T Mantle 10s. How many are there again? Oh wait, 319. I respect your knowledge but that doesn't sound at all persuasive to me.

PWCC said it's the best Jordan 10 they've every had in their possession. To some, perhaps to most, that is meaningless. But to others, that means everything. PSA doesn't have a "black label" premium 10 like BGS does, but if they did, just imagine what the single most sought after card in all of basketball would sell for at auction. The buyer is a well known collector with an insane collection worth countless millions of dollars. It's a real sale. Some people just want to overpay to be #1. This guy is one of those people. He thinks this is the best Jordan rookie that exists. It is what it is.

As far as other Jordan 10s go, I have seen numerous slabs of these where there's no way it would get a 10 today if cracked and resubbed. The ones that are listed on eBay in perpetuity are often of this ilk. Most collectors know that those are really just 9s in a 10 holder, so they avoid them or they sell for quite a bit less. Not all 10s are the same, and in the high-end market the variance in sales price is extremely wide, just like it is with vintage baseball. I pointed out recently that in that exact same PWCC Premium Auction there were two 52 Mantles that sold, one was a 1.5, the other was a 3.5. The 1.5 sold for MORE than the 3.5 because of eye appeal. How do you explain that? It's not because the 1.5 was shill bid up. I know because I bid on the 1.5 myself. I was the 2nd highest bidder on it. It's the same thing with the Jordan RC. It's all about perception and eye appeal. You can say the guy was conned by the PWCC "Superior" sticker and provenance story of it being the only PSA 10 that PSA has given on a Jordan RC in over a year, or the inside stories about the graders at PSA calling everyone in to check out the card when it was there because they said it was the best one they'd ever seen and that there was video footage of it being pulled from the box. Maybe all that stuff is just nonsense marketing, but it mattered to some people and those people paid through the nose for it. The buyer is happy. I say let him be. No need for the conspiracy theories here.

[Stampsfan]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Global shipping is a great thing.

Not from a Canadian buyer perspective. Obscene shipping charges results in less international bidding activity on sub $100 cards.

Maybe not the thread to chat on $100 cards, but the statement is not accepted by all.

[Stampsfan]

Originally Posted by Snowman

...I pointed out recently that in that exact same PWCC Premium Auction there were two 52 Mantles that sold, one was a 1.5, the other was a 3.5. The 1.5 sold for MORE than the 3.5 because of eye appeal. How do you explain that? It's not because the 1.5 was shill bid up. I know because I bid on the 1.5 myself. I was the 2nd highest bidder on it.

Do you have a link to the 1.5? I can find the SGC 3.5 but cannot find the afore-mentioned 1.5.

Thanks...

[Michael B]

Where are Vin Diesel, Scott Caan and Ben Affleck when you need them? This is almost a classic pump and dump. These days they don't need phone banks to find the rubes; they have so-meds (my word) which these suckers follow faithfully.

It is like looking at the alumni list of Clown College.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Stampsfan

Do you have a link to the 1.5? I can find the SGC 3.5 but cannot find the afore-mentioned 1.5.

Thanks...

I can't seem to find it now. I don't see the July auction results posted anywhere. You can see it in some of the YouTube videos where people have watch parties I guess, but I haven't found a link to the card itself yet. Which makes me wonder if maybe the guy didn't pay for it? Ugg, that would suck, because I would have won it otherwise if so.

[Huysmans]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Global shipping is a great thing. Just send it to Kentucky and ebay does the rest.

As already mentioned... this is NOT the case with most international buyers, especially any fellow Canadian collectors I have discussed this with.

- ridiculous rates sometimes as high as 5 to 10 times the normal USPS rate - with this total at times increasing if the bidding increases DURING the auction
(I've seen single graded cards with $90 shipping charges and an antique baseball pennant that sold for over $600 have a $300 shipping fee through the Global Shipping Program)
- MUCH longer wait for items shipped... Usually by WEEKS
- Strangers not involved in the buying process opening and handling your items before you get them
- American sellers cannot see the absurd shipping amounts, as many would probably balk at charging customers these abhorrent fees.

I walk away from items left and right that I would have bid higher on then the closing amount if that garbage shipping program wasn't attached.

Bottom line, if you're American and using the program to sell.... You're DEFINITELY ostracizing customers and leaving money on the table....

ESPECIALLY with hockey items.
Who will pay more for them than Canadians???

[egri]

Originally Posted by Huysmans

ESPECIALLY with hockey items.
Who will pay more for them than Canadians???

Russians?

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Schlesinj

Basketball is huge accords the world and I suspect we are seeing international appeal to one of the most recognized faces in the world for the last 35 years.

This right here. Add in all the collectors in Europe, Australia, China and SE Asia that could care less about a 1952 Topps Mantle, that demand more than makes up for the higher supply. The 52 T Mantle isn't a rare card either. They are in pretty much every auction. They are always available on eBay and at card shows.

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by Huysmans

...Strangers not involved in the buying process opening and handling your items before you get them...

This would actually be my primary concern. Those strangers might not think twice about handling the item carelessly.

(yes, I agree that paying outrageous shipping fees is also a big deal)

[Gorditadogg]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

And who has examined all the PSA 10 Jordans to be in a position to make any such determination? This isn't like saying the card is the best of the FOUR 52T Mantle 10s. How many are there again? Oh wait, 319. I respect your knowledge but that doesn't sound at all persuasive to me.

Peter I have a ton of respect for you as well and have learned a lot from your posts. I sure don't expect to persuade you on anything once you've formed an opinion on it.

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[vintagewhitesox]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Informal poll, who here has shipped a basketball card overseas. Anyone? I keep hearing this story, but have seen no evidence to back it up.

Hi, I have sent a few basketball cards over seas in the past 3 years. they are to people I have known however. not a stranger from an ebay sale.

[Jdoggs]

Originally Posted by rjackson44

One sold last night 180 k dropping like flies

Which auction sold for 180k?

[mrreality68]

Originally Posted by vintagewhitesox

Hi, I have sent a few basketball cards over seas in the past 3 years. they are to people I have known however. not a stranger from an ebay sale.

I avoid sending some from ebay oversees to many problems from delays, different country customs, cost etc.

Not worth the hassle In my opion

[Johnny630]

Look at this listing

“YOU CONTROL THE MARKET”

https://www.ebay.com/itm/38432058610...cpOdRFr8gLQAIY

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

Look at this listing

“YOU CONTROL THE MARKET”

https://www.ebay.com/itm/38432058610...cpOdRFr8gLQAIY

Yes post 51 above.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Yes post 51 above.

Sorry I missed that one !!!

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Yes post 51 above.

You, too, can control the market by buying 4% of the supply at (at least) 2.5x the going rate!

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

I just want to control the horizontal, and maybe on a good day the vertical...

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Tabe

You, too, can control the market by buying 4% of the supply at (at least) 2.5x the going rate!

lol especially since they are doubtless the 13 best in existence after the one that sold for 840K

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

I just want to control the horizontal, and maybe on a good day the vertical...

Outer Limits reference I presume.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Outer Limits reference I presume.

coupled with a dash of truth lol.

Just realized I should use the "control the market" line on the Rose Brand Cy Young. Only problem there is, it's actually true!

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

coupled with a dash of truth lol.

Just realized I should use the "control the market" line on the Rose Brand Cy Young. Only problem there is, it's actually true!

A paraphrase from the Outer Limits opening is my sig line on Blowout. In reference to the complete hold of PSA over the hobby.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

apropos. I gotta say as an auctioneer trying to make my consignors the most money I'm definitely helping to perpetuate a system that I'm not overly fond of.

[mrreality68]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Outer Limits reference I presume.

Nice

[Jdoggs]

Originally Posted by rjackson44

One sold last night 180 k dropping like flies

A Jordan Psa 10 fleer rookie sold in iconic auctions for 212k less than 2 months ago.
Which auction or direct sale sold for 180k two days ago are you referring to?

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by Snowman

PWCC said it's the best Jordan 10 they've every had in their possession. To some, perhaps to most, that is meaningless. But to others, that means everything. PSA doesn't have a "black label" premium 10 like BGS does, but if they did, just imagine what the single most sought after card in all of basketball would sell for at auction. The buyer is a well known collector with an insane collection worth countless millions of dollars. It's a real sale. Some people just want to overpay to be #1. This guy is one of those people. He thinks this is the best Jordan rookie that exists. It is what it is.

As far as other Jordan 10s go, I have seen numerous slabs of these where there's no way it would get a 10 today if cracked and resubbed. The ones that are listed on eBay in perpetuity are often of this ilk. Most collectors know that those are really just 9s in a 10 holder, so they avoid them or they sell for quite a bit less. Not all 10s are the same, and in the high-end market the variance in sales price is extremely wide, just like it is with vintage baseball. I pointed out recently that in that exact same PWCC Premium Auction there were two 52 Mantles that sold, one was a 1.5, the other was a 3.5. The 1.5 sold for MORE than the 3.5 because of eye appeal. How do you explain that? It's not because the 1.5 was shill bid up. I know because I bid on the 1.5 myself. I was the 2nd highest bidder on it. It's the same thing with the Jordan RC. It's all about perception and eye appeal. You can say the guy was conned by the PWCC "Superior" sticker and provenance story of it being the only PSA 10 that PSA has given on a Jordan RC in over a year, or the inside stories about the graders at PSA calling everyone in to check out the card when it was there because they said it was the best one they'd ever seen and that there was video footage of it being pulled from the box. Maybe all that stuff is just nonsense marketing, but it mattered to some people and those people paid through the nose for it. The buyer is happy. I say let him be. No need for the conspiracy theories here.

To each their own but PWCC telling me it is the best they have handled means nothing and is nothing more than a means to push a card...most likely one they have an interest in too. If the buyer is happy, that is all that matters but PWCC's designation and proclamations are BS. He has sold a lot of Jordan 10s over the years but this one was the nicest? OK. I need a little more than that but if that is good enough for you, party on.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

To each their own but PWCC telling me it is the best they have handled means nothing and is nothing more than a means to push a card...most likely one they have an interest in too. If the buyer is happy, that is all that matters but PWCC's designation and proclamations are BS. He has sold a lot of Jordan 10s over the years but this one was the nicest? OK. I need a little more than that but if that is good enough for you, party on.

Booyah!

[Snapolit1]

The notion that anyone could sell a dozen or so PSA 10s of the same card and then declare that this is the best 10 we’ve ever sold is so asinine it defies any response. 10s by their nature are supposed to be essentially flawless. But this one here? That’s the most flawless of all.
I’m sorry but that’s comical.
I mean that sounds like the sort of thing you’d hear some confidence man say in some movie set in 1880 trying to pass off a phony Diamond ring to some rich old lady. And you’d laugh at the absurdity of it.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

The notion that anyone could sell a dozen or so PSA 10s of the same card and then declare that this is the best 10 we’ve ever sold is so asinine it defies any response. 10s by their nature are supposed to be essentially flawless. But this one here? That’s the most flawless of all.
I’m sorry but that’s comical.
I mean that sounds like the sort of thing you’d hear some confidence man say in some movie set in 1880 trying to pass off a phony Diamond ring to some rich old lady. And you’d laugh at the absurdity of it.

I believe the correct term is flawlessest...

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

To each their own but PWCC telling me it is the best they have handled means nothing and is nothing more than a means to push a card...most likely one they have an interest in too. If the buyer is happy, that is all that matters but PWCC's designation and proclamations are BS. He has sold a lot of Jordan 10s over the years but this one was the nicest? OK. I need a little more than that but if that is good enough for you, party on.

It's definitely not good enough for me. I would never pay a premium to "have the best 10" of anything. I'm just acknowledging that some people will and do. There are a lot of billionaires in this world, and many of them are collectors. Most billionaires care greatly about status. It's more of an ego thing. 840k dollars is like pocket change to them. It's an entirely different world of collecting.

[maniac_73]

I still cant tell the difference between a 9 and a 10 and the cost between them is nothing but an elaborate marketing scheme to me.

[GregC]

Originally Posted by maniac_73

I still cant tell the difference between a 9 and a 10 and the cost between them is nothing but an elaborate marketing scheme to me.

I couldn't agree more, but now we are lucky enough to have the people taking a vig on the sale of the 10's telling us which 10's better than other 10's lol. The image of Arthur Fonzerelli on some water skis comes to mind.

[mrreality68]

Originally Posted by GregC

I couldn't agree more, but now we are lucky enough to have the people taking a vig on the sale of the 10's telling us which 10's better than other 10's lol. The image of Arthur Fonzerelli on some water skis comes to mind.

Good Point

Go Fonzie go