The second and third greatest knuckleball pitchers of all time?

[Balticfox]

Phil Niekro is widely hailed as the greatest knuckleball pitcher of all time. But who are the second and third greatest? Hoyt Wilhelm, Charlie Hough, Dutch Leonard, Tom Candiotti, Tim Wakefield, R.A. Dickey, or...? Why?

[packs]

Phil won a lot of games but he also led the league in losses four years in a row and retired with an ERA+ of 115.

I would take Hoyt Wilhelm for my team. Guy was an unheralded beast and would have a case for being the highest paid pitcher in the game today if he were starting his career right now.

In the age of the opener and long relief man, who wouldn't empty the bank for Hoyt Wilhelm?

[Balticfox]

Originally Posted by packs

Phil won a lot of games but he also led the league in losses four years in a row and retired with an ERA+ of 115.

Phil Niekro pitched 5404.0 innings over 24 years to the age of 48 though and retired with a lifetime ERA of 3.35.

Originally Posted by packs

I would take Hoyt Wilhelm for my team. Guy was an unheralded beast and would have a case for being the highest paid pitcher in the game today if he were starting his career right now.

In the age of the opener and long relief man, who wouldn't empty the bank for Hoyt Wilhelm?

Hoyt Wilhelm pitched 2254.1 innings over 21 years to the age of 49 and retired with a lifetime ERA of 2,52.

What makes the comparison tough is that Wilhelm didn't break into the major leagues until the age of 29 while Niekro started at the age of 25. Moreover Niekro started in 716 games while Wilhelm started in only 52 games.

[packs]

Originally Posted by Balticfox

Phil Niekro pitched 5404.0 innings over 24 years to the age of 48 though and retired with a lifetime ERA of 3.35.



Hoyt Wilhelm pitched 2254.1 innings over 21 years to the age of 49 and retired with a lifetime ERA of 2,52.

What makes the comparison tough is that Wilhelm didn't break into the major leagues until the age of 29 while Niekro started at the age of 25. Moreover Niekro started in 716 games while Wilhelm started in only 52 games.

Hard to play the what if game but the one time the leash was off Hoyt and he was allowed to start and pitch as much as he wanted, he threw 226 innings and led the league in both ERA and ERA+.

He was also 36 years old at the time.

[Balticfox]

Originally Posted by packs

Hard to play the what if game but the one time the leash was off Hoyt and he was allowed to start and pitch as much as he wanted, he threw 226 innings and led the league in both ERA and ERA+.

He was also 36 years old at the time.

Yes indeed! In 1959 with Paul Richards managing the Orioles, Hoyt Wilhelm pitched 226 innings in 32 appearances including 27 starts and 13 complete games in those starts. He posted an ERA of only 2.19 while pitching an average of over seven innings per appearance!

[steve B]

I'm not sure how the others were teamwise, but Wakefield was very different.

Signed an auto renewing one year contract that was a decent deal for both him and the team. Only modified at his request after a bad season - he requested the yearly pay be decreased since he felt his age and abilities were not as valuable.

At least one time had good stats until a week where neither the starters of relievers were doing well. Asked to eat up innings on minimal rest so the relievers could rest even if it went badly and wrecked his stats he agreed and took a pretty bad beating for all nine innings. And just said it was what the bullpen needed so he was happy to help.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Balticfox

Phil Niekro pitched 5404.0 innings over 24 years to the age of 48 though and retired with a lifetime ERA of 3.35.



Hoyt Wilhelm pitched 2254.1 innings over 21 years to the age of 49 and retired with a lifetime ERA of 2,52.

What makes the comparison tough is that Wilhelm didn't break into the major leagues until the age of 29 while Niekro started at the age of 25. Moreover Niekro started in 716 games while Wilhelm started in only 52 games.

If memory serves, Wilhelm hit a home run in his very first game and never hit another.

[packs]

I will say Niekro does have some whacky seasons under his belt that seem very hard to explain on the surface.

In 1978, he went 19-18, lost more games than anyone else, gave up more hits and earned runs than anyone else, and hit more people than anyone in the league.

But he also somehow led the league in WAR.

The next season it was even weirder. He led the league in both wins and losses after going 21-20, he gave up more hits, home runs, and walks than any other pitcher in the league, but again led everyone in WAR.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by packs

I will say Niekro does have some whacky seasons under his belt that seem very hard to explain on the surface.

In 1978, he went 19-18, lost more games than anyone else, gave up more hits and earned runs than anyone else, and hit more people than anyone in the league.

But he also somehow led the league in WAR.

The next season it was even weirder. He led the league in both wins and losses after going 21-20, he gave up more hits, home runs, and walks than any other pitcher in the league, but again led everyone in WAR.

Availability is valuable.

He also usually led the league in innings pitched...by a lot.

...and the difference between him and the #10 guy was a huge gulf. Usually around a 100 innings. Sometimes even more. That's like 11 Extra complete games a season.

I also believe Atlanta was considered a hitter's paradise during those days, so that would have helped his overall value also.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by packs

I will say Niekro does have some whacky seasons under his belt that seem very hard to explain on the surface.

In 1978, he went 19-18, lost more games than anyone else, gave up more hits and earned runs than anyone else, and hit more people than anyone in the league.

But he also somehow led the league in WAR.

The next season it was even weirder. He led the league in both wins and losses after going 21-20, he gave up more hits, home runs, and walks than any other pitcher in the league, but again led everyone in WAR.

It's because he pitched so damn much. WAR seems to reward that. Look at Wilbur Wood's big seasons.

[cgjackson222]

Behind "Knucksie" and Wilhelm, I might go with Eddie “Knuckles” Cicotte, who is considered the first to master the pitch.

Cicotte had some of the best years of any pitcher of his era in 1913, 1917, and 1919 when he was a combined 75 wins vs. 30 losses during those years and an ERA well below 2.00 each of those seasons.

Cocotte went 21-10 in 1920 before he was banned from baseball as part of his being a major part of the Black Sox scandal. Had he continued playing a few more years (and avoided scandal), he may very well have become HOF worthy.

Wilbur Wood was a knuckleballer that also put up some big numbers in the early 1970s.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by cgjackson222

Behind "Knucksie" and Wilhelm, I might go with Eddie “Knuckles” Cicotte, who is considered the first to master the pitch.

Cicotte had some of the best years of any pitcher of his era in 1913, 1917, and 1919 when he was a combined 75 wins vs. 30 losses during those years and an ERA well below 2.00 each of those seasons.

Cocotte went 21-10 in 1920 before he was banned from baseball as part of his being a major part of the Black Sox scandal. Had he continued playing a few more years (and avoided scandal), he may very well have become HOF worthy.

Wilbur Wood was a knuckleballer that also put up some big numbers in the early 1970s.

Ah, Wilbur Wood. He had some monster seasons as both a Reliever and a Starter. His run from '68 to '74 is pretty fascinating.

[TUM301]

As mentioned, Eddy Cicotte and Wilbur Wood.

[Balticfox]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

Ah, Wilbur Wood. He had some monster seasons as both a Reliever and a Starter. His run from '68 to '74 is pretty fascinating.

Fascinating indeed!

Originally Posted by Wikipeda

Wilbur Wood, who had previously relied on a fastball and curveball, refined the knuckleball (My Note: playing for the Columbus Jets of the International League in 1966) with the help of veteran knuckleball specialist Hoyt Wilhelm. He spent the next four seasons as a relief pitcher for Chicago. In 1968, he set a record (broken the next year) with 88 games pitched and was named the Sporting News American League Fireman of the Year.

The White Sox tried to trade Wood before the 1971 season, but an injury to starting pitcher Joe Horlen caused them to put him in the starting rotation. That season, pitching coach Johnny Sain suggested that Wood pitch with only two days' rest between starts, since knuckleball specialists do not put as much stress on their arms as other pitchers. Wood proceeded to lead the AL in games started from 1972 through 1975, starting a career-high 49 games in 1972 (My note: with an ERA of 2.51). That season, he also recorded a career-high 376 2⁄3 innings pitched (My note: more than 7 2/3 innings per start!). He won 20 or more games for four consecutive seasons, leading the AL in 1972 and 1973 with 24 wins. In 1973, Wood also matched the 1916 record of Walter Johnson of a pitcher to win and lose 20 or more games in a season. Wood was an All-Star in 1971, 1972, and 1974.

Perhaps Wilbur Wood's best season though was 1971 when he pitched 334 innings in 44 appearances including 42 starts and 22 complete games in those starts. And he posted a stellar ERA of only 1.91 while pitching all those innings!

I mean "Wow!"

[Balticfox]

Originally Posted by Balticfox

Perhaps Wilbur Wood's best season though was 1971 when he pitched 334 innings in 44 appearances including 42 starts and 22 complete games in those starts. And he posted a stellar ERA of only 1.91 while pitching all those innings!

Originally Posted by Balticfox

In 1959 with Paul Richards managing the Orioles, Hoyt Wilhelm pitched 226 innings in 32 appearances including 27 starts and 13 complete games in those starts. He posted an ERA of only 2.19 while pitching an average of over seven innings per appearance!

Originally Posted by Balticfox

In 1978 at the age of 39 his record was 19-18 on an Atlanta Braves team that was 69-93. Niekro pitched 334 1/3 innings in 44 appearances which included 42 starts with 22 complete games in those starts. He posted an ERA of only 2.88 while pitching an average of almost 7 2/3 innings per appearance!

In 1979 at the age of 40 his record was 21-20 on an Atlanta Braves team that was 66-94. Niekro pitched 342 innings in 44 starts with 23 complete games in those starts. He posted an ERA of 3.39 while pitching an average of over 7 2/3 innings per appearance!

Compare the above innings pitched totals to the pathetic ones posted by the "leaders" in 2024 when Logan Gilbert topped the list with 208 2/3 innings:

2024 Innings Pitched Leaders

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by packs

Phil won a lot of games but he also led the league in losses four years in a row and retired with an ERA+ of 115.

I would take Hoyt Wilhelm for my team. Guy was an unheralded beast and would have a case for being the highest paid pitcher in the game today if he were starting his career right now.

In the age of the opener and long relief man, who wouldn't empty the bank for Hoyt Wilhelm?

Man, I hate when I agree with you about baseball