Spalding, Reach and other cut outs sold on our BST

[Leon]

What do ya'll think about cut outs from magazines being sold on our BST? Also, what about the fringe grading companies that actually grade them? Any thoughts? I see some being sold and have mixed feelings. My initial thoughts are if they are advertised honestly, as cut outs from magazines, it's ok. But other opinions will be appreciated. And I am not accusing anyone of anything ......Thanks in advance for the feedback....

[4815162342]

Others may disagree, but I would vote not to allow this junk to be sold here. Or at the very least, require that it be advertised in the Everything Else section.

[Bill Rayburn]

I voted "Yes, but with caveat" because I collect wood cuts from 1800' Harpers, Leslie's, etc. and early magazine covers. I would hate to see them excluded.

[daves_resale_shop]

I have sold several Spalding/ reach cutouts on the board... Prior to selling them I have them framed and matted... The items are represented as cutouts, and offer the consumer a cheap and presentable way to get ahold of a period piece of a big name on a shoestring...

I have not had a single complaint to date on an item purchased by a fellow member...

Fwiw-i don't believe that these pieces should be professionally graded by any company..

[I Only Smoke 4 the Cards]

Let them be sold as long as they are properly described.

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by Leon

What do ya'll think about cut outs from magazines being sold on our BST? Also, what about the fringe grading companies that actually grade them? Any thoughts? I see some being sold and have mixed feelings. My initial thoughts are if they are advertised honestly, as cut outs from magazines, it's ok. But other opinions will be appreciated. And I am not accusing anyone of anything ......Thanks in advance for the feedback....

As long as they are described correctly and placed in the memorabilia section I don't mind.

[bigtrain]

Frankly, I am against anything that promotes destroying what I consider to be a legitimate collectible such as a Spalding or Reach guide by selling pieces of it. For the same reason, I stopped buying modern cards when companies like Upper Deck, etc. started cutting up game-used jerseys, bats and the like.

[MooseDog]

Tom,

I heartily agree with you in terms of cutting up a perfectly good collectible, but I have a lot of experience in working with books and magazines for a local organization.

Some older paper items are already basically "cut up" condition, missing bindings, pages, basically worthless as a "whole" collectible. However many have interesting pictures and ads in them that I think should be saved.

Would you consider culling pictures and such from those types of items OK?

[shammus]

I voted "no" here for a couple of reasons...

I don't want to see things that I've grown accustomed to seeing cluttering up Ebay, to now be cluttering up our BST. I'd probably throw Reprints into that catagory as well.

Also, I agree with what others have said, I don't like the destruction of original collectibles in order to make new ones. I feel that as long as a market continues to exist for these "second-hand collectibles", other valuable relics will continue to be hacked apart. By allowing them to be sold on BST, we only provide another source for that market to grow - and I'd prefer that it didn't...heh.

[Runscott]

Thanks for bringing this up, Leon. I'm completely against it for reasons well-documented.

I'm about to sell a run of Reach Guides from the 1880's-1930's and I will not sell any of them to anyone who I know has sold cut-outs in the past. These items are all out of print and can not be replaced.

[Piratedogcardshows]

I voted yes but with a proper description.However after reading other responses it does seem like a shame to take a perfectly intact issue and cut it up.I have purchased a few Virginia League cutouts that were described as coming from a damaged copy but who knows if it was it not.

[bn2cardz]

Originally Posted by MooseDog

Tom,

I heartily agree with you in terms of cutting up a perfectly good collectible, but I have a lot of experience in working with books and magazines for a local organization.

Some older paper items are already basically "cut up" condition, missing bindings, pages, basically worthless as a "whole" collectible. However many have interesting pictures and ads in them that I think should be saved.

Would you consider culling pictures and such from those types of items OK?

You directed this to Tom and I am not Tom, but here is my answer anyways

I think this is the gray area for me. If only a couple of pages can be salvaged from these books then I can see why. On the other hand what happens is that people see that those individual pages bring more money when you add all the pages together than the whole book, so it prompts others to start cutting up books to get the most monetary value out of it.

Then the person cutting up a full good book can say that it wasn't a good book and they are just preserving a few pages, but there is no way for the rest of us to know that is true.

It is a tough call and it is for that reason I say they can be sold with the info disclosed, but I don't ever want to buy one.

[bigtrain]

Originally Posted by MooseDog

Tom,

I heartily agree with you in terms of cutting up a perfectly good collectible, but I have a lot of experience in working with books and magazines for a local organization.

Some older paper items are already basically "cut up" condition, missing bindings, pages, basically worthless as a "whole" collectible. However many have interesting pictures and ads in them that I think should be saved.

Would you consider culling pictures and such from those types of items OK?

I have no problem with selling pages or pictures from a book that is basically destroyed already except that it may promote others to do the same with perfectly good collectibles. I do think these objects should not be graded. If PSA is now grading this stuff, then I am done with PSA.

[ethicsprof]

I have to admit that I cringe when I see these Reach and Spalding cut-outs for
sale. I even find myself hoping as I click on sections of the BST that there
won't be any on there. Many years ago on the forum we would sometimes
talk a bit about these pieces being the worst things around in our hobby---
capturing the newbie again and again. In fact,they were perceived as an
embarrassment to the hobby. I know that through the years, we have seen
a few other 'worst things in the hobby' but I still cringe and find myself avoiding the BST more than I'd like since these items have come on board. I often say 'to each his own'. But not this time.
I'm with Brian M and Scott F on this one---unequivocally.
best,
barry

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by bigtrain

I have no problem with selling pages or pictures from a book that is basically destroyed already except that it may promote others to do the same with perfectly good collectibles.

And that is exactly what is happening, with the perpetrators claiming that they only buy destroyed books. There was a guy on ebay who was making this same claim, but we were able to tie his i.d. back to purchases of good reading copies of Reach and Spalding Guides.

This is really formulaic: is the selling price of the sum total of individual photos that can be cut out of a book greater than what the book costs? If so, people who don't really respect these items as historical pieces are going to buy them and then cut them up and sell the pieces.

To me it's similar to cutting up bats, jerseys or anything else of historical value, in order to cash in on its pieces - it then just becomes a matter of personal aesthetics. I'm sure there are those on this board who thinks a game-used bat card of Babe Ruth is a horror, but that a page out of a Reach Guide is a beautiful collectible. Or who don't care about the bat-piece card but think it's terrible that the bat was destroyed, but who could care less about a book being destroyed. I like bats, you like books - just a matter of taste.

[pawpawdiv9]

i voted yes, but with caveat saying what it is and made clearly.
As a buyer/seller of a item: I had bought the Nolan Ryan pre-rookie from GregB Auction. I was unaware at the time what it really was until days after the bid i was told so. Later on, i sold the slab/card, not here, but on Ebay and 'clearly' stated it as such throughout the listing as a magazine cut-out and where it came from. Clearly underlined and enlarged and surround by parenthesis. The TPG PSA that graded the piece made it apart of their registry, so someone probably bought it due to become #1. But only based on speculation. Here is my sale to prove and follow as a example: http://www.ebay.com/itm/201012634337...84.m1561.l2649

[I Only Smoke 4 the Cards]

Originally Posted by pawpawdiv9

i voted yes, but with caveat saying what it is and made clearly.
As a buyer/seller of a item: I had bought the Nolan Ryan pre-rookie from GregB Auction. I was unaware at the time what it really was until days after the bid i was told so. Later on, i sold the slab/card, not here, but on Ebay and 'clearly' stated it as such throughout the listing as a magazine cut-out and where it came from. Clearly underlined and enlarged and surround by parenthesis. The TPG PSA that graded the piece made it apart of their registry, so someone probably bought it due to become #1. But only based on speculation. Here is my sale to prove and follow as a example: http://www.ebay.com/itm/201012634337...84.m1561.l2649

I can't believe someone sold that without describing what it was. I really cat believe PSA graded it.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

As long as they are described correctly and placed in the memorabilia section I don't mind.

+1

[Exhibitman]

Provided they are described accurately, I figure people should be allowed to collect what they want. But that's from a guy whose focus is oddball and offbeat cards and related materials including some items cut from publications or other media:


















I am not sure where a "no cuts" ban would fall on the spectrum of things like the ones depicted above.

I think they can form a nice adjunct to a player or team or other themed collection as long as the buyer knows exactly what is being sold.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

I am not sure where a "no cuts" ban would fall on the spectrum of things like the ones depicted above.

I think they can form a nice adjunct to a player or team or other themed collection as long as the buyer knows exactly what is being sold.

They wouldn't be on the same spectrum - some of the items you show actually have scissor tracks, but I'm guessing most or all of them were intended to be 'collected' or cut out as items separate from whatever they were published with.

Reach and Spalding team photos, along with the textual information, were meant to support each other as part of a book. Once they are cut out, the book loses most of it's historical and monetary value. I asked Dave if you could get the rest of the book with the cut-outs he sells, and he said "sadly, no", which I don't think can be interpreted any way other than he cuts out the parts he likes, and throws the rest in the trash.

[Eric72]

I agree with those who posit that anything encouraging people to carve up 100 year old books should be frowned upon. I voted, "no."

Best regards,

Eric

[bnorth]

I vote that someone can do what ever they want with what they own as long as it is described properly when they sell it.

[vintagetoppsguy]

This thread is ridiculous at this point and some are losing focus of the original question as it was asked. It wasn’t “Do you think cutting up 100 year old pieces of memorabilia is a bad practice or not?” The question was “Should publication cut outs be allowed to be sold on the BST?”

I voted yes, with caveat (as long as they’re describing them accurately). People should leave their personal opinions out of it. I don’t like trimmed cards, but I would never interfere with someone’s right to sell them (as long as they’re describing them accurately) just because of my personal opinion.

[thecatspajamas]

The question was not, "Do they have a RIGHT to sell them?" It was "Should they be allowed to be sold on the BST" of Net54, a site that generally fosters the preservation of baseball antiquities. I voted "no" because I don't think that anything that encourages the destruction of vintage publications has any place in a forum that otherwise encourages their preservation. There are plenty of other venues where they can exercise their right to destroy whole collectibles and sell them off piecemeal.

The ultimate decision of whether they have the right to sell them HERE falls to Leon, and I appreciate him soliciting the opinions of the board members before making that decision.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

This thread is ridiculous at this point and some are losing focus of the original question as it was asked. It wasn’t “Do you think cutting up 100 year old pieces of memorabilia is a bad practice or not?” The question was “Should publication cut outs be allowed to be sold on the BST?”

I voted yes, with caveat (as long as they’re describing them accurately). People should leave their personal opinions out of it. I don’t like trimmed cards, but I would never interfere with someone’s right to sell them (as long as they’re describing them accurately) just because of my personal opinion.

It's more ridiculous when someone tells us how we should discuss things in a discussion forum. Next time you post and it's not a direct, clear and concise response to the exact question the OP posted, I'll be sure to let you know that you are ridiculous.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Runscott

It's more ridiculous when someone tells us how we should discuss things in a discussion forum. Next time you post and it's not a direct, clear and concise response to the exact question the OP posted, I'll be sure to let you know that you are ridiculous.

What's even more ridiculous is when one doesn't know the difference between a discussion and a poll.

In other words, vote and move on. No need to impose your views on everybody else (especially 11 times in the same thread).

[tschock]

After reading the discussion and some thinking, my "No" vote really was an easy one to make. And it doesn't even conflict with my beliefs, that...

I abhor cutting up or otherwise destroying almost anything, whether it is 2 years old or 200 years old. Yet...

I totally believe that if you own something you can do with it what you please. And...

What is permissible to cut up and what is not? I have less qualms about cutting up a "1990s magazine where the interior full-page picture of Clemente would look great framed" than a 100 year old guide, though that's not my decision to make for others. But at the same time...

We don't have to allow (or as some would say, promote) that on B/S/T.

Hence my "No" vote.

[bn2cardz]

I would like to hear from any of the 7 people that voted the straight out "yes" without voting for the yes with caveat. Were these just quick votes without reading all the options? Or are there actually people on here that believe it is OK to sell these without full disclosure of what they actually are?

[Rich Klein]

BUT, if the item is legitimate, the seller has a right to do whatever he or she wants to do. I know one dealer (who has passed on) who did nothing but cutting out things from magazines/papers. I know other people do this as well.

We can choose to buy or not buy these, but it is the seller's right. And if you are so upset about this, pay more then they do on EBay and buy the items yourself. If you complain and don't bid to own these, then you really have no say.

And on a modern example -- how about the 1954-55 Sports Illustrated Cards im the 1st 2 issues and then in an 155 issue. Now these are probably more expensive when still in a full magazine;but, if you have a damaged magazine, then taking out these cards are fine. Do you have to disclose these are cutout -- well most collectors know,... My point is no one complains about those items. I think the biggest issue is the TPG but as long as legit and described properly, it *is* a legt collectible.

Someone posted a while back about what TPG's would not grade, yet here is another borderline case.

Rich

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Rich Klein

BUT, if the item is legitimate, the seller has a right to do whatever he or she wants to do. I.......

Rich

Not really....This is not a democracy. Jury is still out....

[Exhibitman]

Who is on the jury?

[Rich Klein]

Originally Posted by Leon

Not really....This is not a democracy. Jury is still out....

I was actually referring more to outside the BST realm. However, once you allow them with a caveat, everyone is going to say they were cutout from old falling apart publications. Thus, the realist in me says, if you allow them with the caveat, then just allow them period.

[Runscott]

....